Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#4008838 - 09/12/14 04:06 PM "Stealth scam"  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
MK_PL Offline
Member
MK_PL  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
Poland
This interview is more than a year old, I know, so it's not exactly "new news",
but what do you think about his opinion about stealth technology?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxDSiwqM2nw

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4008860 - 09/12/14 04:37 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
Sprey has pretty much about as much of an idea of what he's talking about as anyone on this forum. He's being presented as having designed the F-16; In reality, all he did was write some of the specifications that dictated how GD designed it. He has no experience of any sort when it comes to aerial combat, and according to him the F-16 shouldn't even had been fitted for long range A-A missiles. The things he claims about the F-35's ability to do its job one day is the exact same things he claimed about the F-15C until its achievements curb stomped what he'd claimed about it.

#4008874 - 09/12/14 04:54 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: scrim]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
MK_PL Offline
Member
MK_PL  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
Poland
Originally Posted By: scrim
Sprey has pretty much about as much of an idea of what he's talking about as anyone on this forum.


That's why I posted the link. There are a few people on this forum who seem to know what they're talking about.

#4008940 - 09/12/14 06:45 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Ehhh...
... just another target for the SAM guys.
biggrin


But to be serious, do you know what was the first target during OAF, hit by a Tomahawk missile around Belgrade???
(the sole P14 Tall King of Serbia)



Last edited by Hpasp; 09/12/14 07:01 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4008972 - 09/12/14 07:35 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
MK_PL Offline
Member
MK_PL  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
Poland
Is there any truth in what he says about 2nd WW and Russian radars?

Last edited by MK_PL; 09/12/14 07:49 PM.
#4009215 - 09/13/14 12:25 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
I'm not that good on technical aspects of radars, but the way he's arguing is pretty cheap. No stealth plane to date has been designed to by itself be 100% invisible to radar. The way they've always been supposed to work is in conjunction with most of all SEAD supporting efforts. That's why the only shoot down of an F-117 by the Serbians was on a night when someone decided to press on with the mission despite the complete lack of SEAD.

What he's saying is along the lines of saying that body armour for infantrymen is a bad idea because it can still be penetrated. But that'd only be a good argument if the guys wearing it were supposed to just outright walk up to the enemy without weapons, and physically take their weapons away from them. That's just not how it works, it's not a substitute for older methods and equipment, but rather to decrease risks.

#4009315 - 09/13/14 04:48 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Is there any truth in what he says about 2nd WW and Russian radars?


Lets take the Cold War Stealth plane, and assume that its RCS is around a tennis ball.
(size of the plane is similar to an F-4 Phantom, so it is a great engineering achievement)

What do we have (using metric target acquisition radar), to shoot it down?

SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F) with the metric P-12 (Spoon Rest-A) target acquisition radar.
Metric P-12 could detect the Stealth at the maximum of ~25km.
RSNA-75M (Fan Song-F) centimeter band fire control radar could detect it at maximum ~10km.
Minimum effective range of the V-750VMK (Guideline Mod.1) missile is 5km.
During the '80s when the Stealth was active, Dvina was generally replaced by the Volhov system.

S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) with the metric P-18 (Spoon Rest-D) target acquisition radar.
Metric P-18 could detect the Stealth at the maximum of ~30km.
RSN-75V (Fan Song-E) centimeter band fire control radar could detect it at maximum ~13km.
Minimum effective range of the V-759 (Guideline Mod.5) missile is 7km.

The Neva (SA-3B), KRUG (SA-4B), KUB (SA-6A), Osa (SA-8B) has no metric target acquisition radar, and the P-14 (Tall King) of the Vega (SA-5B) can be easily annihilated with a Tomahawk before any conflict.

Of course, if you mix the Neva (Low Blow) fire control radar with the P-18 (Spoon Rest-D) target acquisition radar, than nasty surprise can happen...







Last edited by Hpasp; 09/13/14 04:58 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4009350 - 09/13/14 06:03 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,822
piston79 Offline
Member
piston79  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,822
...and that's where STEALTH kicks in, as all known engagement radars are in sm/mm band....

#4010045 - 09/15/14 03:10 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
MK_PL Offline
Member
MK_PL  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
Poland
Does it mean that the development of radars in the USA took another direction?

#4010118 - 09/15/14 05:09 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
Portugal
I want to say that I completely agree with what was said here in the response of the original topic of this thread, specially I fully agree with what scrim said which is backed by Hpasp's data regarding detection ranges.
In complement to what was already said here I want to say that Stealth doesn't mean that's completely "invisible" to a radar, in fact almost any radar can detect any Stealth aircraft. What happens is that a Stealth aircraft (F-117 or F-35 for example) is always detectable by a radar source (doesn't matter the type or band that it uses/operates) at a much shorter range when compared to a Non-Stealth (F-4 or F-15 for example) or to Semi-Stealth aircraft (Super Hornet or Rafale for example).

I'm going to be on the generic side here:
- Imagine a radar that can detect a Stealth aircraft at 20Km (twenty) for example. This means that this same radar will be able to detect a Non-Stealth at much longer ranges, in the range of hundreds kilometers - I would say 200 (two hundred) kilometers for example.

- Now imagine that someone (doesn't matter who) is able to make some considerable progress in radar technologies, perhaps even using cutting edge technologies, perhaps using it together metric band radars and that this sort of new technology manages to detect a Stealth Aircraft such as the F-35 at ranges of 100km! This would certainly be a great achievement and I wouldn't say impossible, but again lets imagine this (still) imaginary radar which is able to detect a Stealth aircraft such as the F-35 at ranges of 100km, what would be the detection range of this same radar when detecting a non-stealth or even a semi-stealth aircraft such as the Super Hornet or Rafale for example? 700-800km or perhaps more?
Taking this "academic" example an knowing that currently (and in the future) there is (and will be) a considerable arsenal of air launched weapons with ranges in excess of 100km, I say that a Stealth aircraft such as the F-35 can still be able to avoid and even destroy such radar systems without ever being detected!
The same cannot be said regarding Non or Semi-Stealth aircraft since there isn't any air launched weapon with a range in the excess of 800km, at least for a fighter sized aircraft that I know of (Large Bombers such as B-1, B-52, Tu-95, Tu-160, etc... may be a different matter).

#4010126 - 09/15/14 05:22 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Mdore Offline
Member
Mdore  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
A big problem with trying to see a target 800km away, is the earth is round.

One point that this thread seems to be missing, is stealth shouldn't be used on its own. It should and usually is be used in conjunction with stand off jamming aircraft and maybe decoys.

#4010129 - 09/15/14 05:25 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
MK_PL Offline
Member
MK_PL  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
Poland
Originally Posted By: ricnunes
what would be the detection range of this same radar when detecting a non-stealth or even a semi-stealth aircraft such as the Super Hornet or Rafale for example? 700-800km or perhaps more?


In this case, they would have to employ some kind atmospheric bounce effect due to the curvature of the Earth. If I'm not mistaken, an aircraft would have to travel at 20,000 m to be detected at the distance of 500 km or something like that (the SA-5 manual by Hpasp).

#4010140 - 09/15/14 05:54 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
Portugal
Like I said in my previous post, I gave an "academic" example only in order to show that a Stealth aircraft will always be harder to detect than a non-stealth one no matter what radar technology will be invented in the future.
In my "academic" example I admit that I didn't take the Earth's curvature into the account (thanks for pointing it out). And I could reduce the range from my previous example from 800km to a more realistic 400km and the end result would be the same/similar.

Also yes, in the case of the F-35 (the most advanced stealth fighter aircraft) Stealth won't be used on it's own -> The F-35 will be able to use it's radar (as an antenna) and internal jammer to jam enemy radar sources (similar to a dedicated jammer aircraft) or of course use data from other sources (thru data-link), etc, etc...

EDIT: Actually I'm curious to know if it's possible to employ some kind atmospheric bounce effect in order for a radar to be able to detect aircraft at ranges that exceeds the Earth's curvature as pointed out by MK_PL?

Last edited by ricnunes; 09/15/14 07:11 PM.
#4010145 - 09/15/14 05:58 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
I thought I brought up that point in my second post in this thread wink

#4010183 - 09/15/14 07:06 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
Portugal
Yes, you did.
However I just wanted to focus a bit more on the radar range versus stealth and non-stealth aircraft issue. And jamming a radar source can reduce the range at which that radar source can detect any aircraft which means that Stealth+Jamming makes Stealth aircraft even more deadly/dangerous/effective.

#4010207 - 09/15/14 07:43 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
MK_PL Offline
Member
MK_PL  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 191
Poland
By the way, I once heard that condition of F-22 stealth coatings becomes "critical" after 1,7 h of flight or so; it doesn't sound very optimistic, does it?

Last edited by MK_PL; 09/15/14 07:54 PM.
#4010218 - 09/15/14 07:54 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim Offline
Member
scrim  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
Entirely possible. The B-2 IIRC has had issues with its radar absorbent paint being stripped off if flying through even just rain clouds at one point. However, since the F-22 has been cancelled I doubt it'll be an issue, unless the same problem occurs with the F-35.

#4010370 - 09/16/14 06:47 AM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Another often overlooked factor making hard to detect Stealth, is that long range target acquisition radars are focusing their output power (main beam) at few degrees above the horizon (0 to 9 degree in case of the P-18), and their capability to search upward, a high flying close target is limited.



Last edited by Hpasp; 09/16/14 06:50 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4010371 - 09/16/14 06:53 AM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: ricnunes]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: ricnunes

EDIT: Actually I'm curious to know if it's possible to employ some kind atmospheric bounce effect in order for a radar to be able to detect aircraft at ranges that exceeds the Earth's curvature as pointed out by MK_PL?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duga-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4010481 - 09/16/14 02:34 PM Re: "Stealth scam" [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
ricnunes Offline
Senior Member
ricnunes  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,831
Portugal
Very interesting info Hpasp!
Actually never though and didn't know that long range radars focus most of their power output at only a few degrees above the horizon.
Also, great info about the OTH radars.

Thanks for sharing the info and links thumbsup

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Cat, Hpasp, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Mount and Blade II Bannerlord
by Rick_Rawlings. 03/30/20 09:27 PM
11 th day on lockdown
by carrick58. 03/30/20 12:26 AM
Drug combo working. Covid. Dr Zelenko NYC hospital.
by TerribleTwo. 03/29/20 12:27 PM
HILARIOUS videos found on YouTube.
by NoFlyBoy. 03/28/20 09:59 PM
Stuka!
by RedToo. 03/28/20 04:56 PM
social distancing
by KraziKanuK. 03/27/20 07:30 PM
How to correctly wash your hands properly.
by NoFlyBoy. 03/25/20 12:58 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0