#4006636 - 09/08/14 12:07 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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For the various entities of Germany, Arminius/Hermann - defends the northern reaches from roman rule. Henry the Fowler/Heinrich I. - Defends from magyar raiding (Lechfeld), (re-)establishes the Reich as a unity of smaller kingdoms. Correction: That's actually Otto I., see posts below... Frederick II. (the Great) - in numerous wars and battles (of which he probably lost as many as he won...) establishes the Prussian/Hohenzollern rule over the Reich, and with it also reducing the Habsburg influential sphere. Helmuth von Moltke (The Elder) - I am not sure about his participation in actual battles, but under his military command Prussia defeated Austria (+southern german forces) 1866, and France 1870/71, which in turn led to calling out the German Empire under Wilhelm I. + Bismarck. Hindenburg and Ludendorff - defeating the Russians at Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes, preventing a russian invasion of East Prussia and toward Berlin, allowing to focus the main war effort to the western front. Alexander von Kluck - overloaded with the tasks to reach the Channel, take Paris, and/or defeating Lanrezacs Fifth Army (self-set goal out of opportunity), his I. Army failed to achieve its goals on the western front, which led to the overall failure of the Schlieffen-Plan; though one may argue whether he can be really be blamed, and it's definately not him alone to blame, but he was in the critical spot. For WW II., I don't think there is a single battlefield commander whose achievement could be considered significantly influential. If you like, you can put here Rommel for his achievements in Africa, and Paulus for Stalingrad. But real infuential, I would have to put Dnitz with "his" submarines, Gring for all his failures (Dunkirk, BoB, airsupply of Stalingrad, defense of the Reich from the bombers), and the Gefreite himself...
Last edited by WhoCares; 09/08/14 01:27 PM.
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#4006653 - 09/08/14 01:02 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Priceyplanecrasher]
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PanzerMeyer
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I would think if there was one WW2 German general influential it would be Heinz Guderian, father of the blitzkrieg. Yes, absolutely. Doenitz and Goering I would not include since they operated at the strategic level. They were not battlefield commanders.
Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 09/08/14 01:03 PM.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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#4006659 - 09/08/14 01:14 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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Jayhawk
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"Arminius" was a leader of the Cheruski, a germanic tribe. Therefore he's not part of "German" history, despite Emperor Willi's romantic views on the issue; and his name was most definitely not "Herrmann". (his father's name was Segimer or Sigimer). "German" history really starts with King Otto I. defeating the Magyars at the Lechfeld in 955, and the subsequent establishment of the "Holy Roman Empire". Charlemagne, for example, was leader of the Frankish Empire (Regnum Franconum), which when divided up among his sons evolved into modern France and Germany. Out of the numerous influential military leaders from over a 1000 years of German history, from the top of my head I would include: Otto I. Friedrich I. Barbarossa, and his son Heinrich VI Friedrich II. ("took" Jerusalem through clever diplomacy) Albrecht von Wallenstein (30 years war) Johann t Serclaes Graf von Tilly (30 years war) Georg von Frundsberg (introduced "modern" infantry tactics during the early 16th century) Kurfrst Maximilian II. Emanuel von Bayern (successful campaigns against the Ottomans; one of the liberators of Vienna 1683) WWII Generals that were influential because they "introduced" modern mobile warfare were IMO: Erich von Manstein Heinz Guderian
Last edited by Jayhawk; 09/08/14 01:22 PM.
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#4006668 - 09/08/14 01:25 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Jayhawk]
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I put Arminius, as what later became Germany may have looked completely different, had he not defeated Varus and thus stopped the Roman expansion.
Yepp, I mixed up Heinrich I. and Otto I. (even noting the Lechfeld)...
I was actually thinking of v. Manstein and/or Guderian or a mixture of both - I didn't remember either name, and a quick search for Panzergeneral didn't bring immediate results (except for the game) - I can agree with either and both of them.
I would still defend Dnitz, as for the U-Boat war there is little more hirarchy and he was very much involved in the individual dispositions of the Boats and Wolfsrudel...
Last edited by WhoCares; 09/08/14 01:31 PM.
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#4006727 - 09/08/14 02:47 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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Priceyplanecrasher
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Doenitz and Goering I would not include since they operated at the strategic level. They were not battlefield commanders. They were unit commanders in WW1 and Doenitz commanded the U-Boats directly from his war room, hence the importance of the enigma.
Last edited by Priceyplanecrasher; 09/08/14 02:52 PM.
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#4006736 - 09/08/14 02:58 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Priceyplanecrasher]
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They were unit commanders in WW1.
But at that time they were not really influential. But thinking of WW1 aviation, one may name Oswald Boelcke and his British counterpart Mick Mannock, both defining the aerial combat doctrines of the time and (to some extend) still valid today. But also those, while important to aerial combat, I'd argue whether the last part of Panzers first post applies to them ...military leaders who were responsible for winning or losing decisive battles that forever changed the course and development of your native country...
Last edited by WhoCares; 09/08/14 03:01 PM.
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#4006781 - 09/08/14 05:00 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Rends]
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PanzerMeyer
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PS: after reading the thread title only the first time it was Clausewitz as alltime most influent commander that came into my mind.
Clausewitz von Blucher Gneisenau Scharnhorst All four of these were immensely influential on the historical course of Prussia and Germany in general after the Napoleonic Wars.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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#4006976 - 09/09/14 12:34 AM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Fitz505]
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Vertigo1
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Lieutenant Thomas Macdonough, USN
A little known American, whose exploit's had a large impact during the War of 1812. Commanded the American naval forces that defeated the British Navy at the Battle of Lake Champlain, which was part of the Battle of Plattsburg, which helped lead to an end to the War of 1812. By defeating the British Navy, the British Army, which was heading south into NY was forced to retreat back to Canada, as they would have no source of supply. While a tactical victory, it also had international implications as it denied the British the right to any demands for exclusive use of Lake Champlain and the Great Lakes at the Treaty of Ghent and gave exclusive use of Lake Champlain to the United States. I guess you could say the victory also helped define the northern boundaries of the United States. As a side note, it finally brought Vermont into the war. The Navy thought him important enough to name 3 Destroyers and a Frigate after him. That's 2 more than Halsey. +1
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#4007034 - 09/09/14 02:37 AM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Vertigo1]
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Lieutenant Thomas Macdonough, USN
A little known American, whose exploit's had a large impact during the War of 1812. Commanded the American naval forces that defeated the British Navy at the Battle of Lake Champlain, which was part of the Battle of Plattsburg, which helped lead to an end to the War of 1812. By defeating the British Navy, the British Army, which was heading south into NY was forced to retreat back to Canada, as they would have no source of supply. While a tactical victory, it also had international implications as it denied the British the right to any demands for exclusive use of Lake Champlain and the Great Lakes at the Treaty of Ghent and gave exclusive use of Lake Champlain to the United States. I guess you could say the victory also helped define the northern boundaries of the United States. As a side note, it finally brought Vermont into the war. The Navy thought him important enough to name 3 Destroyers and a Frigate after him. That's 2 more than Halsey. +1 +2 I did not know about this story.
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#4007203 - 09/09/14 12:56 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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Jedi Master
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We could start a thread called "least influential" and it would be bigger than the last word wins series.
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#4007218 - 09/09/14 01:21 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: Jedi Master]
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We could start a thread called "least influential" and it would be bigger than the last word wins series... I don't know how that would work, one could just flood it with totally unknown peace-time commanders. Instead you might try most overrated and/or underrated commanders. Or worst plunders. Back on topic, the Brits might add Jellicoe to their list, who would also fit to the underrated category for the Grand Fleets performance at Jutland. Not the glorious victory like Trafalgar that had been expected from him, but as Churchill put it, 'the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon'.
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#4007222 - 09/09/14 01:25 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: WhoCares]
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PanzerMeyer
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Back on topic, the Brits might add Jellicoe to their list, who would also fit to the underrated category for the Grand Fleets performance at Jutland. Not the glorious victory like Trafalgar that had been expected from him, but as Churchill put it, 'the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon'.
In the aftermath of Jutland the Germans made a big deal about their tactical victory (which it certainly was)but of course never mentioned that the strategic situation was left unchanged. The blockade of the North Sea continued unabated.
“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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#4007267 - 09/09/14 03:10 PM
Re: The most influential military commanders of all time
[Re: PanzerMeyer]
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Norway: Magnus Berrftt (Magnus Barefoot), aka Magnus III Olavsson (1073-1103): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_BarefootExpanded Norway's holdings in Britain by force. He also helped drive the Normans back from Wales. Harald Hardrde (Harald Hardrada), aka Harald Sigurdson (1015-1066): Rose to command the Varangian Guard in Constantinople, before returning to conquer Norway and then died at Stamford Bridge in 1066. Sigurd Jorsalfar (Sigurd the Crusader), aka Sigurd I Magnusson (1090-1130): Led the Norwegian Crusade to Jerusalem, never lost a single battle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_CrusadePeter Jansen Wessel Tordenskiold (1690-1720): The best norwegian-danish sea captain of the era of Age of Sail. Notable for his exploits in battles against Sweden, if he had not died at the age of 30 in a duel he would have done even greater things.
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