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#3968866 - 06/16/14 10:32 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Laurwin]  
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Originally Posted By: Laurwin
well yea... flying slow allows you initially to maintain 3-9 line...

but the bandit isn't cooked yet...


You don't know that.

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You must close into gun parameters.


In a 1-circle, you will be in range.

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You must pull lead pursuit to kill him with gun.


In a 1-circle, you will at least get a snapshot opportunity if done right.

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The eagle doesn't need to kill the su-27 IN THE FIRST TURN. Eagle can keep turning, and turning and turning. Gaining angles, losing angles etc...


So can a flanker. I don't get why you're stuck on an airframe.

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Flying slow has it's disadvantages, you are low-E aircraft at that point. This is actually what the original poster said. HE SAID that "it's good to have enough speed to make a snapshot in case enemy goes vertical"


Yeah, it's 'good'. And? smile Who says that F-15 isn't going to buy the 1-circle wholesale?

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What if your snapshot misses? Then you're stalling, or at the very least low-E state.


Why would I be stalling? And I might be ok with the low E state. He might be at a low E state too. Or maybe I'm not at a low E state because I saw I'm winning the 1-circle so I don't need to pull as hard any longer.

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What prevents eagle from using energy tactics and the vertical?


What prevents the flanker from doing so?

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Ironically grayghost, IT WAS YOU who already answered with the alternative scenario to the dogfight. biggrin

Eagle should not have accepted the one circle fight with his own big energy advantage... Eagle is too fast to make any kind of tight turns at that speed it looked like.

By using energy fighting and patience, I suspect eagle would have had more chances of killing su-27 instead of dying.


I can start with a 1-circle and keep a far superior pilot to myself very occupied with what I'm doing inside his turn circle. And what if I have a wingman?

A demonstration of a one-circle fight is a demonstration of a one-circle fight smile It's a great starting point to understand it.

The rest depends
.


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#3968933 - 06/17/14 12:57 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
The minimum corner for an F-15C is 650kph, or 350KTS. Not 550kph.



F-15C corner speed is 440kts - 550kts and I'm finding good turns at the lower speed of 400-450kts.(not kms lol, I don't use metric with the Eagle.) As strange as it might sound lol and the Eagle has some excellent vertical climb incomparison to the SFM version.
Quote:

A demonstration of a one-circle fight is a demonstration of a one-circle fight smile It's a great starting point to understand it.


That's very true and I now do not see the point on criticizing the video since its as a training tool/example.



Last edited by SUBS_17; 06/17/14 01:01 AM.


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#3969056 - 06/17/14 11:32 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
F-15C corner speed is 440kts - 550kts


No, it isn't. It depends on weight and it's certainly nowhere near as high as 550kts. The speed range is 350-450, some say as high as 475 (sometimes it's good to start your turn just above corner, so 475 would make sense).


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That's very true and I now do not see the point on criticizing the video since its as a training tool/example.


Yep, I think presenting alternatives to how things might go is good, but the video itself did a fair job or showing the classic one-circle fight and it isn't fair to criticize the video for doing its job smile


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#3969060 - 06/17/14 11:38 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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All I know is that by reading In Pursuit - by Johan Kylander (BMBM).
I'm hardly an ace, but that reading made me definitely better.


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#3969239 - 06/17/14 05:52 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Well, I'm not going to apologize or whatever... The original poster asked for comments criticism and I gave my thoughts on the matter, so there you go.

AS TO THE QUESTION OF... eagle using the vertical, and su-27 not using the vertical as effectively... it depends on the speeds of the both aircraft at the merge. (I think)

1vs1 guns only, both pilots know it is guns only

If su-27 is committed to slow speed spaghetti bowl dogfight, he must accelerate himself into manouvering speed etc... true or not?

If the eagle is already going at pretty good smash. It makes little sense to spend all that energy advantage in turn-fighting a slower su-27 immediately, at the horizontal plane... true or not?

Just run rings around the f***er and use vertical. It works well enough with WW2 aircraft... Use the vertical for sustaining your energy in turns...

Avoid tracking gunshots by the enemy when turning like this.

Maybe it don't work so well with radar-calculating lead gunsights. But it works well enough when you have WW2 era aircraft, faster energy fighting aircraft vs slower angles fighter aircraft.

Faster energy fighter is able to gain gunshots vs the slower angles fighter, but not immediately.

By using the vertical to his advantage, the faster aircraft can still have pretty good turn rate.

And when faster aircraft uses the vertical, he can switch around his turn radius and cut the corner of the angle fighter's turn, so to speak.

#3969268 - 06/17/14 06:43 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Laurwin]  
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Originally Posted By: Laurwin
Well, I'm not going to apologize or whatever... The original poster asked for comments criticism and I gave my thoughts on the matter, so there you go.


You're not really helping the topic with the direction you are taking, but ok, just IMHO.

Quote:
AS TO THE QUESTION OF... eagle using the vertical, and su-27 not using the vertical as effectively... it depends on the speeds of the both aircraft at the merge. (I think)


That's my point.

Quote:

1vs1 guns only, both pilots know it is guns only

If su-27 is committed to slow speed spaghetti bowl dogfight, he must accelerate himself into manouvering speed etc... true or not?


No one trains for such a scenario but, ok, we're sim pilots and we do this, so I'm going with it. The answer to your question: No. It depends. His turning capability at low altitude and slow speed is superior to almost everything else out there, so if he suckers the other guy in a one-circle, he's got the cards. Realistically, the other guy would have a missile consideration and would probably try to Rmin, thus getting into such a fight. Since we're doing guns only and we all know its guns only, the other guy can do whatever he wants. If he's going mach 1000 and blows through, the flanker can still stay inside his turn circle and comfortably accelerate. The best the other guy can do now is accept a head-on pass, and those always suck. But again, this is just one variation of one scenario.

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If the eagle is already going at pretty good smash. It makes little sense to spend all that energy advantage in turn-fighting a slower su-27 immediately, at the horizontal plane... true or not?


That depends. How much fuel do they have? Maybe the F-15 doesn't have time to screw around? He's also the one who's more likely to lose sight now because he's defensive. The Su-27 isn't obligated to follow, and the tremendous turn circle the F-15 will fly now gives the 27 time to accelerate.

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Just run rings around the f***er and use vertical. It works well enough with WW2 aircraft... Use the vertical for sustaining your energy in turns...


A Su-27 at low altitude and slow speed can point right up at you and shoot at you. This isn't your grandpa's air to air combat.

Avoid tracking gunshots by the enemy when turning like this.

Maybe it don't work so well with radar-calculating lead gunsights. But it works well enough when you have WW2 era aircraft, faster energy fighting aircraft vs slower angles fighter aircraft.

Quote:
Faster energy fighter is able to gain gunshots vs the slower angles fighter, but not immediately.


Or maybe never.

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By using the vertical to his advantage, the faster aircraft can still have pretty good turn rate.


And maybe the slower guy can stay inside his TC forever.

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And when faster aircraft uses the vertical, he can switch around his turn radius and cut the corner of the angle fighter's turn, so to speak.


I say the turn fighter can pull harder and cut right back smile

I mean, are talking about blow-through and re-engagement in a second fight, then? Because if you fly the slow guy out of your TC and then turn around and come back, you've initiated a second fight, so you go back to square one. You're not gaining much advantage if he's still able to point the nose at you, and you're not guaranteed to prevent him from doing so just because you're faster.

You're not the first and won't be the last person to get splashed (or end up splashing your target) trying something like this. Everything depends, and that's why you have to analyze the situation every single second of the fight. There is a lot of stuff that can happen from start to finish, but there needs to be a starting point. This video demonstrates this starting point along with some tips.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/17/14 06:46 PM.

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#3969434 - 06/18/14 01:15 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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I've been in dogfights where a guy was using an F-15 vs me in an SU33, eventhough I reduced speed to cause an overshoot the F-15 always did a high speed yoyo to remain behind me.



So breaking and trying to make it a slow fight doesn't always work. Going vertical has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is it gives you more energy, disadvantage is that it will reduce your speed in a multi bandit fight make you a sitting duck. Another advantage is it can completely remove you from the furball if the other guys do not know that you have gone vertical.

My own view of trying to force a slow speed fight is its better if there is more than one bad guy to maintain the corner speed and high energy than to bleed that speed off because it makes you a sitting duck.



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#3969439 - 06/18/14 01:18 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
F-15C corner speed is 440kts - 550kts


No, it isn't. It depends on weight and it's certainly nowhere near as high as 550kts. The speed range is 350-450, some say as high as 475 (sometimes it's good to start your turn just above corner, so 475 would make sense).




I cannot remember where I read that its also very close to the Superhornets corner speed. BTW I'm using the F-15 PFM and finding that I corner better at 400kts to allow a good balance between G and turning so that I can continue to keep a good situational awareness. (1 vs many the F-15 rocks)



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#3969470 - 06/18/14 02:57 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Let's just stick to the notion that if the bandit's on your six you're screwed, for the sake of this argument.

The demonstration is how to get to the bandit's six, or at least into a firing position. This is offensive BFM. It isn't demonstrating defensive BFM, where you could force overshoots IF you know how, AND the bandit is cooperating.

In general, bandit on six = dead for OBFM, keeps discussions simple.

Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
So breaking and trying to make it a slow fight doesn't always work.


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#3969921 - 06/18/14 10:39 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Not always BTW that can also show offensive BFM also from the point of view of someone remaining on the other guys 6. From my experience just having someone on your 6 does not always mean its game over.



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#3989636 - 08/02/14 09:05 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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ER, maybe I am just a (VIRTUAL NEVER FLOWN ACTUAL) crappy pilot, but GrayGhost is right: if you have a half-way-decent pilot on your six, in a halfway comparable aircraft, HE IS NOT getting off of it (said six) bar some real effort from your wingman. The joy of flying online is that it sobers you up fast: you are good--but NO ACE! Never leave your wingman, and find one who never leaves you.


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#3989928 - 08/03/14 04:26 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Not always and there are plenty of examples on the history channel of historical dogfights where a situation of having someone on the pilots 6 has not always ended with the other guy scoring the kill. Some things that can happen the enemy can overshoot, he can run out of fuel/weapons and have to end chasing you, he might black out(from forgetting to ATGSM), he can lose sight of you, you could out turn/climb the bandit, you could pull a reversal of some sort, or they could crash or damage their engine/airframe from manouvers.

So there is many examples of the above which can reverse the out come of having an enemy on your 6, if you are in that situation with someone on your 6 then just remember the above and find a way to exploit the other aircrafts weaknesses to either A survive, B shoot him down. immelman



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#3990094 - 08/03/14 04:15 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
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There's a reason why DBFM is trained instead of 'just give up'. Generally, if the guy on your six makes lesser or equivalent mistakes to yorus and enters and maintains the control zone (even for a short time if his aircraft doesn't really have a control zone against your aircraft) you're toast.

Exceptions don't make the rule.

Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
Not always and there are plenty of examples on the history channel of historical dogfights where a situation of having someone on the pilots 6 has not always ended with the other guy scoring the kill

Last edited by GrayGhost; 08/03/14 04:17 PM.

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#3993451 - 08/10/14 12:48 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Remember the old rule that, if you fly perfect Defensive ACM and the bandit flies perfect Offensive ACM, you will get shot down. You are correct that having a bandit on your six does not mean that you have lost the fight, but it is a highly undesirable place to be.

Sometimes, starting a fight that way is unavoidable for any of a number of real life reasons. But if you started neutral with a single bandit and ended up with that bandit on your six, you have probably not done something right, even if the thing you didn't do right was sticking around to fight and not running when you had the chance.

Or, as a famous movie cowboy once said,

"Dying ain't no way to make a living."

#3995672 - 08/14/14 10:22 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Right now I'm flying the DCS F-86F vs Mig15s and SU25s it is a very difficult aircraft to dogfight with because of the limitations of the GAR8 missiles. The gun sight is very similar to the P51Ds except the radar sets range which is quite handy. The main problem is the missiles don't like G and are vulnerable to atmospheric conditions like the sun. Way different to the modern Aim9s we take for granted now days in most sims. xwing



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#3998162 - 08/20/14 12:52 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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To get an unloaded GAR8 firing parameters, perhaps a lag turn or displacement roll can reduce aspect at the expense of range. Pure pursuit constantly increases the load factor required to maintain. Lead can reduce it after a time if you can hold it. Going lag for aspect then pulling hard for HCA should put you in good parameters for the missile shot.

Corner is max instantaneous turn rate. Max sustained turned rate and min radius are lower numbers. Turning bleeds energy so for a turn of say 90 degrees your initial speed should be above corner and finish below corner in a way that brackets corner. If you start at peak performance it's only going to go down and is a little inferior in terms of the calculus. Another rule of thumb I've heard is never make an offensive turn >90.

If you try to sustain corner throughout a fight you will fly big lazy circles and get shot down. Corner is nice to have as an energy reserve but it's impractical to hold onto forever especially if all-aspect missiles preclude extension-energy tactics.

#3998777 - 08/21/14 10:26 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted By: Frederf


Corner is max instantaneous turn rate. Max sustained turned rate and min radius are lower numbers. Turning bleeds energy so for a turn of say 90 degrees your initial speed should be above corner and finish below corner in a way that brackets corner. If you start at peak performance it's only going to go down and is a little inferior in terms of the calculus. Another rule of thumb I've heard is never make an offensive turn >90.

If you try to sustain corner throughout a fight you will fly big lazy circles and get shot down. Corner is nice to have as an energy reserve but it's impractical to hold onto forever especially if all-aspect missiles preclude extension-energy tactics.



Don't forget to use the vertical. If the bandit is turning level and you turn nose low, you will retain more energy and keep your turn rate up (assuming you would have bled below corner otherwise). If you are turning lazy circles and you have altitude beneath you, you are not utilizing all your options.

Also by turning nose low, when you do raise your nose for the shot, you will be shooting with a cold blue sky background...about the best contrast you are likely to get and still the gold standard for a heater shot. Just remember not to shoot while the bandit is up sun.

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