#3998165 - 08/20/14 12:55 AM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: near_blind]
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,749
streakeagle
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,749
Seffner, FL USA
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I'm curious to hear that argument. The F/A-18's the only modern aircraft that has ever actually done multi-role; killing an enemy aircraft and then proceding to destroy a ground target in the same mission.
I do believe some F-16 pilots, particularly in Israel, would argue that the F/A-18 is not the only aircraft to ever shoot down MiGs and then continue to perform their bombing mission.
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#3998412 - 08/20/14 02:33 PM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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*picks hair up off the ground*
Here, you guys have failed to split this one.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3998495 - 08/20/14 05:20 PM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: apelles]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
GrayGhost
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,892
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Nope. The only F-15's hit by missiles were hit by other F-15's. In training. As in accidents. One at Elmendorf, one in Japan. One duck still got one hunter. In Israel, if i remember correctly. A syrian bis caught an F-15A with aa-8 aphid. The Eagle caught fire, but limped home. But that's due the aphid tiny warhead, and the eagle good survivability.
-- 44th VFW
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#3998610 - 08/20/14 08:42 PM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Yes, and I'm sure you'd find highly respected clergy who had serious ideas about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin as well, but it's an ambiguous term defined by who is using it. Because there has never been an official definition accepted by all.
So go ahead and argue which planes are or are not based on your personal definition of what the term means, but the argument cannot be won because there is no consensus on what the definition should be.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3998666 - 08/20/14 11:16 PM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,180
scrim
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Member
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#3998680 - 08/21/14 12:01 AM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
bogusheadbox
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
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Opinionated Aussie Bloke
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If I use more than one bog roll on the loo - is that classed as multi - ROLL
Here all night folks
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#3998710 - 08/21/14 02:25 AM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
BeachAV8R
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
KCLT
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Both these planes are multirole: LINK!BeachAV8R Oh wait..that's not multirole..it's another roll..
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#3998750 - 08/21/14 06:31 AM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: Jedi Master]
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Frederf
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Member
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Yes, and I'm sure you'd find highly respected clergy who had serious ideas about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin as well, but it's an ambiguous term defined by who is using it. Because there has never been an official definition accepted by all.
So go ahead and argue which planes are or are not based on your personal definition of what the term means, but the argument cannot be won because there is no consensus on what the definition should be.
The Jedi Master I disagree, both with your point and with your tone. I'll respond only to the former below as the latter is a matter for a moderator. The statement in question was that an aircraft, to be considered multirole, must be capable of performing multiple roles simultaneously (i.e. within the same sortie). I disagree with this assertion. In my exposure to the term and knowledge of aircraft to which the term has been applied, I have developed the notion that the category is broader than that. By my figuring it is sufficient for an aircraft design to make possible several selectable roles, even if only one is flown at a time, to be considered multirole. This is the best definition I have come up with and it agrees with most sources I have found. If you posit that near_blind's definition is correct or some third definition is more accurate please convince me because I want to know. So far I'm unconvinced but I welcome being informed.
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#3998753 - 08/21/14 07:09 AM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 905
NickMow
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Member
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Berkshire UK
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Finding the Airfix MRCA pic led me on one of those internet odesseys Dogfight double ! How much of my pocket money did I invest in these as a kid ? Anyway just bringing it back on track. (So when we get the Cessna in DCS ??)
Last edited by NickMow; 08/21/14 07:09 AM.
"If you find yourself in a fair fight..you planned it wrong" (WFO)
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#3998863 - 08/21/14 02:09 PM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: Frederf]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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I disagree, both with your point and with your tone. I'll respond only to the former below as the latter is a matter for a moderator.
The statement in question was that an aircraft, to be considered multirole, must be capable of performing multiple roles simultaneously (i.e. within the same sortie).
I disagree with this assertion. In my exposure to the term and knowledge of aircraft to which the term has been applied, I have developed the notion that the category is broader than that. By my figuring it is sufficient for an aircraft design to make possible several selectable roles, even if only one is flown at a time, to be considered multirole. This is the best definition I have come up with and it agrees with most sources I have found.
If you posit that near_blind's definition is correct or some third definition is more accurate please convince me because I want to know. So far I'm unconvinced but I welcome being informed.
Oh no. You did not like my tone. You then go on to prove the very thing I said! "You have developed the notion" is the same thing as saying "there is no accepted definition" because if there was you would not have developed anything but simply read what already existed. So your idea and near_blind's differ, but neither one is correct or incorrect because it's not been defined by an accepted 3rd party!! Is multirole the same thing as swing role? Are there differences? Depends on who's talking! What a plane can do depends on the requirement it was built to, which is always specifically stated "can do X and Y" as opposed to an arbitrary "multirole." Any gov't contract that is not spelled out precisely is open to interpretations by both contractor and the gov't, and I've been party to those types of discussions and they're a nightmare. "The contract says it must be handled in 48 hrs." "Is that 48 business hours, 6 work days, or 48 consecutive hours, 2 days?" "It doesn't say." "Ok, so we will act as if it means 6 days." "But we want it to mean 2 days!" "The contract doesn't say it has to mean that." You can prove or disprove what a plane's capabilities are, as to whether it can do multiple things in one sortie or has to land and be reconfigured inbetween, and that can be backed up with facts. You can NOT prove that an arbitrary multirole label is thus suitable because it's arbitrary. adjective: arbitrary based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. So here's the big shocker: you are neither right nor wrong in your application of the label, only in your assertion that someone CAN be right or wrong in the application of the label, because everything doesn't have to be right or wrong, and some things can't be...like opinions, which is what this is. An opinion can not be right or wrong, only agreed or disagreed with. You disagree with near_blind, which is fine. You want multirole to be a precisely defined term, well it's not, and you can't force it to be. The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3999002 - 08/21/14 07:56 PM
Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 664
near_blind
Member
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Member
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Posts: 664
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Heilige Sheißsnacks, this exploded quite spectacularly.
I was merely stating I was skeptical that the F/A-18C would not be considered a multi-role aircraft, as it has previously performed multiple-roles in the same mission.
I can see how my phrasing would imply that I was saying that the definition of multi-role was killing many different things in the mission. Let me be clear, that was not my intent.
Off to greener pastures
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CD WOFF
by Britisheh. 03/28/24 08:05 PM
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