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#3998123 - 08/19/14 10:16 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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apelles Offline
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One duck still got one hunter. In Israel, if i remember correctly. A syrian bis caught an F-15A with aa-8 aphid. The Eagle caught fire, but limped home. But that's due the aphid tiny warhead, and the eagle good survivability.

#3998145 - 08/19/14 11:48 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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AA activity on the way to a ground target is not multi-role. Multi-role is today I'm an attack, tomorrow a fighter, the next day a recon. The capability to protect yourself in the AG role is called "self escort."

#3998165 - 08/20/14 12:55 AM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: near_blind]  
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Originally Posted By: near_blind

I'm curious to hear that argument. The F/A-18's the only modern aircraft that has ever actually done multi-role; killing an enemy aircraft and then proceding to destroy a ground target in the same mission.


I do believe some F-16 pilots, particularly in Israel, would argue that the F/A-18 is not the only aircraft to ever shoot down MiGs and then continue to perform their bombing mission.


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#3998412 - 08/20/14 02:33 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Entil'zha
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*picks hair up off the ground*

Here, you guys have failed to split this one.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3998481 - 08/20/14 04:58 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Frederf Offline
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If knowing the meanings of words is valueless minutia to you, that's fine, but what is acceptable ignorance is not your decision to make for others. I would want to be informed if I had a mistaken idea of this type.

While the F-15E might not be considered multirole, but strike fighter instead, I tentatively express that these labels reflect more the era the label was applied and the types of aircraft the aircraft replaced historically as any direct comment on the aircraft's possibly combat roles. I did note that Ghost0815 used multirole in quotes to indicate flavor instead of stark fact and we must all admit that compared to earlier Russian aircraft the Su-34 is far more flexible in role.

The notion that mutlirole refers to an aircraft that can satisfy multiple roles within the same sortie is a perfectly reasonable and I can see no reason to say that it doesn't belong in that category. However the definition is not that strict. If an multirole design aircraft's role on a particular sortie requires a configuration that makes it useless for any other role, that aircraft is still mutlirole. The label refers to the potential to adopt several roles, not the ability to fulfill them simultaneously.

In other news the pilot flashlight is a cool feature I hope finds its way into all DCS module.

#3998495 - 08/20/14 05:20 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: apelles]  
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Nope. The only F-15's hit by missiles were hit by other F-15's. In training. As in accidents. One at Elmendorf, one in Japan.

Originally Posted By: apelles
One duck still got one hunter. In Israel, if i remember correctly. A syrian bis caught an F-15A with aa-8 aphid. The Eagle caught fire, but limped home. But that's due the aphid tiny warhead, and the eagle good survivability.


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44th VFW
#3998559 - 08/20/14 06:59 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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scrim Offline
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-role_fighter I'll just leave that here in regards to what is multi role.

#3998610 - 08/20/14 08:42 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Entil'zha
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Yes, and I'm sure you'd find highly respected clergy who had serious ideas about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin as well, but it's an ambiguous term defined by who is using it.
Because there has never been an official definition accepted by all.

So go ahead and argue which planes are or are not based on your personal definition of what the term means, but the argument cannot be won because there is no consensus on what the definition should be.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3998632 - 08/20/14 09:58 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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Argument over.

I win.


Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
#3998666 - 08/20/14 11:16 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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scrim Offline
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No, I win!

#3998680 - 08/21/14 12:01 AM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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If I use more than one bog roll on the loo - is that classed as multi - ROLL


Here all night folks


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#3998710 - 08/21/14 02:25 AM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Both these planes are multirole: LINK!

BeachAV8R

Oh wait..that's not multirole..it's another roll..



#3998750 - 08/21/14 06:31 AM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Yes, and I'm sure you'd find highly respected clergy who had serious ideas about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin as well, but it's an ambiguous term defined by who is using it.
Because there has never been an official definition accepted by all.

So go ahead and argue which planes are or are not based on your personal definition of what the term means, but the argument cannot be won because there is no consensus on what the definition should be.



The Jedi Master


I disagree, both with your point and with your tone. I'll respond only to the former below as the latter is a matter for a moderator.

The statement in question was that an aircraft, to be considered multirole, must be capable of performing multiple roles simultaneously (i.e. within the same sortie).

I disagree with this assertion. In my exposure to the term and knowledge of aircraft to which the term has been applied, I have developed the notion that the category is broader than that. By my figuring it is sufficient for an aircraft design to make possible several selectable roles, even if only one is flown at a time, to be considered multirole. This is the best definition I have come up with and it agrees with most sources I have found.

If you posit that near_blind's definition is correct or some third definition is more accurate please convince me because I want to know. So far I'm unconvinced but I welcome being informed.

#3998752 - 08/21/14 07:03 AM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Seriously dude, Airfix had it sewn up years ago biggrin


Now shake out yer tail feathers and chill x


"If you find yourself in a fair fight..you planned it wrong" (WFO)
#3998753 - 08/21/14 07:09 AM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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NickMow Offline
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Finding the Airfix MRCA pic led me on one of those internet odesseys thumbsup
Dogfight double ! How much of my pocket money did I invest in these as a kid ?
Anyway just bringing it back on track. (So when we get the Cessna in DCS ??)



Last edited by NickMow; 08/21/14 07:09 AM.

"If you find yourself in a fair fight..you planned it wrong" (WFO)
#3998863 - 08/21/14 02:09 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: Frederf]  
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Entil'zha
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Originally Posted By: Frederf

I disagree, both with your point and with your tone. I'll respond only to the former below as the latter is a matter for a moderator.

The statement in question was that an aircraft, to be considered multirole, must be capable of performing multiple roles simultaneously (i.e. within the same sortie).

I disagree with this assertion. In my exposure to the term and knowledge of aircraft to which the term has been applied, I have developed the notion that the category is broader than that. By my figuring it is sufficient for an aircraft design to make possible several selectable roles, even if only one is flown at a time, to be considered multirole. This is the best definition I have come up with and it agrees with most sources I have found.

If you posit that near_blind's definition is correct or some third definition is more accurate please convince me because I want to know. So far I'm unconvinced but I welcome being informed.


Oh no. You did not like my tone. reading


You then go on to prove the very thing I said! "You have developed the notion" is the same thing as saying "there is no accepted definition" because if there was you would not have developed anything but simply read what already existed. So your idea and near_blind's differ, but neither one is correct or incorrect because it's not been defined by an accepted 3rd party!!

Is multirole the same thing as swing role? Are there differences? Depends on who's talking! What a plane can do depends on the requirement it was built to, which is always specifically stated "can do X and Y" as opposed to an arbitrary "multirole." Any gov't contract that is not spelled out precisely is open to interpretations by both contractor and the gov't, and I've been party to those types of discussions and they're a nightmare.
"The contract says it must be handled in 48 hrs."
"Is that 48 business hours, 6 work days, or 48 consecutive hours, 2 days?"
"It doesn't say."
"Ok, so we will act as if it means 6 days."
"But we want it to mean 2 days!"
"The contract doesn't say it has to mean that."

You can prove or disprove what a plane's capabilities are, as to whether it can do multiple things in one sortie or has to land and be reconfigured inbetween, and that can be backed up with facts. You can NOT prove that an arbitrary multirole label is thus suitable because it's arbitrary.


adjective: arbitrary

based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.


So here's the big shocker: you are neither right nor wrong in your application of the label, only in your assertion that someone CAN be right or wrong in the application of the label, because everything doesn't have to be right or wrong, and some things can't be...like opinions, which is what this is. An opinion can not be right or wrong, only agreed or disagreed with.

You disagree with near_blind, which is fine. You want multirole to be a precisely defined term, well it's not, and you can't force it to be.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3998869 - 08/21/14 02:21 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Is this multirole or multi roll


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#3998901 - 08/21/14 03:03 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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It's neither Bogus, it's Multi Rolls cheers


Everybody gets everything they want. I wanted a mission. And for my sins..they gave me one.
#3998975 - 08/21/14 07:11 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Multirole is a well-defined term. For example the UAC/HAL Il-214 Multirole Transport Aircraft is a transport which is able to either perform personnel transport or cargo transport. It is multirole in the sense that the mission role is selectable. If the definition were as strict as proposed by near_blind, the transport could never wear the multirole moniker as it is physically impossible for it to be full of both troops and cargo simultaneously.

The requirement to perform multiple roles within the same sortie has never been part of the definition of multirole.

#3999002 - 08/21/14 07:56 PM Re: DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Heilige Sheißsnacks, this exploded quite spectacularly.

I was merely stating I was skeptical that the F/A-18C would not be considered a multi-role aircraft, as it has previously performed multiple-roles in the same mission.

I can see how my phrasing would imply that I was saying that the definition of multi-role was killing many different things in the mission. Let me be clear, that was not my intent.


Off to greener pastures
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