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#3991203 - 08/05/14 05:53 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Thanks
For people who want to know deeper on a subject, "hempstead", creator of hempstick recently published a nice document on resolution here
http://www.hempstick.org/download/articles/OnResolution.pdf

I've wrote a few more words on top of that article in hempstick thread at DCS...explaining in plain language how to extract more juice from a limited sensor or ADC
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126772&page=4

Last edited by milan_croatia; 08/05/14 05:55 PM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3991756 - 08/06/14 04:58 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Hi all.
Yes, I use KMZ41 bridge together with DSP chip.
One of options of GVL224 electronics supports my sensors.
But the controller from Slava which is mounted in Slaws pedals, has some advantages.
My sensor (RAMS) is better than analog (much more linear), beginning from full angles of 20 degrees.
Resolution of the RAMS sensor 8191 digits (13 bits) on 180 degrees (0.022 degrees on 1 digit, or 45.45 digits on degree). Such as at the KMA200 sensor.
The digital signal is transmitted on the single-wire interface (not PWM).
I can be mistaken, but at Slava's pedals probably an angle of rotation of 60 degrees.
KMZ41 practically shouldn't depend on distance to a magnet (by design). If to change distance to a magnet and a signal is changed, it means that in a place of a sensor the direction of a magnetic field exchanged. It turns out the human factor.
Best regards.

#3991766 - 08/06/14 05:31 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Nice kimaroff,

I whish your sensors made Slaw pedals feel better though. He needs to rework his design. He needs to implement a Cam system or they'll never feel right.


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#3991783 - 08/06/14 06:07 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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And at end, controllers resolution is not all.

The actual "Hartmann" of WWII sim multiplayer combat, Mk.Mr.X use:

Quote:
CH Fighterstick&ProPedal


An old USB 1.1, 8 bits (256 resolution points) electronics.

BTW- I dont know if in standard form or "modernized" (contactless sensor) ones...

smile


Sokol1

#3991798 - 08/06/14 06:50 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: Sokol1]  
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Propedal are really bad....


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#3991913 - 08/07/14 12:55 AM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: Komaroff]  
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Originally Posted By: Komaroff

Yes, I use KMZ41 bridge together with DSP chip.
One of options of GVL224 electronics supports my sensors.
But the controller from Slava which is mounted in Slaws pedals, has some advantages.
My sensor (RAMS) is better than analog (much more linear), beginning from full angles of 20 degrees.
Resolution of the RAMS sensor 8191 digits (13 bits) on 180 degrees (0.022 degrees on 1 digit, or 45.45 digits on degree). Such as at the KMA200 sensor.
The digital signal is transmitted on the single-wire interface (not PWM).


Digital signal processor chip instead of using original NXP :-) I admire your work, honorable :-)
To compare your and mine solution in a signal flow :
YOUR : KMZ41 > analog signal on PCB traces > DSP > === Digital output Single-wire interface > MCU > USB
MINE : KMZ41 > analog signal on PCB traces > MCU ( doing DSP job )> USB

My solution don't have MCU with dedicated DSP...but integration for only 3x axes is OK . Your solution is better in many cases as MCU don't need much power...or can drive many "RAMS" axis without impact on performance. True, you can also improve linearity with DSP chip better than I can on MCU ( without dedicated DSP)...but if user wish to extract more resolution for small angle of rotation I belive my solution is better ( I mean by overampling, averaging, digital low pass...).

Originally Posted By: Komaroff

KMZ41 practically shouldn't depend on distance to a magnet (by design). If to change distance to a magnet and a signal is changed, it means that in a place of a sensor the direction of a magnetic field exchanged. It turns out the human factor.
Best regards.


True...in theory only nonlinearity error of cca 1-2 degree should happen while changing the air gap between magnet and sensor.
In practice...offset error, smaller or bigger air gap error and magnet not perfectly parralel to sensor surface is a reality. I assemble pedals with my hands, I am not a robot...so yes...human factor :-)
Trouble is if magnet not parralel to sensor...so sensor start to pick up Z axis of magnetic field and measure it...therefore airgap change make more difference than in datasheet :-) I have to plug the device in USB...check if it's within tolerance...if not...readjust...time consuming job to make it right :-(...and I do it almost daily. Imagine someone doing it for a first time...magnetoresistive sensor and classic hall very tricky to adjust....triaxis...EASY.

That's why I've choosen MLX90363. Among other things visible from datasheet it's very tolerant for magnet misalignment with minimal loss in linearity. Various magnet size and shape can be used at various airgaps, affordable...single chip solution. Only bad side of this sensor is that it require 6 wires for SPI, and yours need only 3x wires.


Originally Posted By: Sokol1

And at end, controllers resolution is not all.

The actual "Hartmann" of WWII sim multiplayer combat, Mk.Mr.X use:

Quote:
CH Fighterstick&ProPedal


An old USB 1.1, 8 bits (256 resolution points) electronics.

BTW- I dont know if in standard form or "modernized" (contactless sensor) ones...


resolution is not all, specially if mechanics are poor so you can't controll all that resolution :-)
To win a dogfight there are at least 10 more important things than a good high resolution flight controls...but here we speak about suberp flight controls which will only make a difference in compbat between similary skilled pilots.
Aim for bigger resolution is a result of devotion to perfection, its like addiction :-)

#3991970 - 08/07/14 03:48 AM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Yes, since few out there are "Mk.Mr.X", the rest of us need a superb controls.
Keep the good work. wink

Sokol1

#3992018 - 08/07/14 07:55 AM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Hi.
Discussion about what minimum resolution has to be ("must have") is a Holy War.
The majority agrees that 1000 counting on an axis - is enough.
The bigger quantity is an obvious surplus. There is no need for bigger resolution.
The advantage of RAMS and Melexis sensors - the increased linearity and simplicity of installation for assembly in comparison with analog magnetoresistors (see cunnings of installation of analog sensors, their trickies :)) .

Therefore, having reached 1000 counting on an axis (for RAMS - 1000(counts) / 45 (counts/degree) < 23 degrees on an axis), the digital sensor become more preferable.

In addition. Analog magnetoresistors have temperature drift (for example for KMZ41 about 4 percent on 10 degrees Celsius) as the functionality of a chip is used not completely. In the RAMS sensor temperature drift is compensated mathematically because the full functionality of a chip is used.

The errors arising because of inaccuracy of installation of magnets any mathematics completely can't eliminate. Both RAMS, and Melexis. Happiness that these residual errors are rather small smile
As a result, for considered digital sensors, discussion can go only about "3-wire (totally) vs 6-wire interfaces".
Best regards.

#3992830 - 08/08/14 08:38 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
Hi All
I wanted to thank H1TMAN_ACTUA1 for making a comparison of rudder pedals. Due to price of both pedals I never thought someone will buy both and compare :-) Now I'm glad someone did.

I belive review is honest opinion from a user perspective, not going into technical details about sensor type.
I also agree with a few statements here, that such resolution cannot be percieved by a human leg. My belief is that very well trained Human leg can only make precise movements of about 2000 positions across rudder movement range...that is why reviewer did not notice any difference while flying...if there is any difference anyway.

About sensors and electronics.


I've seen a lot of writing about electronics and sensors here, so I want to make a few clarifications.

MFG Crosswind rudder pedals still use:
- GVL224 electronics , a proven manufacturer also producing for Baur BRD...reason why I choose him is because his device is already sucessfully used over 3 years now without complaints.
- Rudder axis - Analog magnetoresistive senosor KMZ41 - implemented on main PCB
- Brake axis - Analog Hall sensor Allegro A1302
- Since 01.10.2013 Firmware and software for pedals is produced by MFG team, while GVL224 provide only electronics

In a few words...komaroff did a honorable job of producing digital sensor, but it is NOT better, or worse than my existing analog sensor. I never tried Komaroff sensor myself, and I don't know what actual magnetoresistive sensor and signal conditioning IC komaroff use...but I can tell such statement on the following arguments :

- Komaroff probably use same analog KMZ41, but with signal conditioning IC that provide digital 3 wire PWM output
( possible that I'm wrong, and komaroff use Austrian microsystems sensor, type I can only speculate since it's not published).

In any case...whatever sensor Komaroff use...It probably was on my testbed during last year. I've tried industry finest solution for development of my own electronics and I can tell you a few words about it :
- I did not find sensor with precision capable to sense any better than 0.022 degree of rotation...no sensor can do that. Transfered into raw positions in windows...this mean 45,45 values per degree of rotation.

Now...let's get back to mechanical design of the pedals to see how this compares. I give you a simple drawing

Purpose of this picture : Assuming both mechanical pedal styles have EQUAL WIDTH, and EQUAL RUDDER RANGE,...design with narrow parralelogram principle - like MFG Crosswind - has almost DOUBLE rotation on rudder axis

Now...let's get this into REAL RESOLUTION ACHIEVED BY BEST SENSORS IN THE WORLD, IN OPTIMAL CONDITIONS
MFG Crosswind rudder principle = 34 degree x 2 = 68 degree x 45,45 positions = approx 3090 TRUE POSITIONS
Other style rudder pedals ( baloo, slaw, simped etc.) = 18 degree x 2 = 36 x 45,45 positions = approx 1636 TRUE POSITIONS

NOTE : I'm not claiming that my pedals rotate 68 degrees, or that slaws rotate 36 degrees... I draw IMAGINED characteristics of both pedal style to clarify importance of mechanical design.
Don't forget that I've just revealed one of many secrets that MFG Crosswind design has in it's sleeve...just for clarification purpose. I hope it's secret well published.


ANALOG VS DIGITAL
Which one is better depend on a purpose of a sensor and sensor distance from ADC ( analog to digital conversion ).
In a perfect enviroment there is no difference, but analog signal can pick up noise on it's way to ADC if there are possible disturbances...so if signal travel longer distance - digital is better ( MFG pedals sensor is on PCB..therefore travel only few centimeters, brake sensors use best quality shielded cable)
Digital also has advantage over analog in cases where sensors are powered with unregulated voltage because voltage drift will also affect sensor reading - solved by supply voltage regulation
However, nothing can beat the speed of analog signal and a fast ADC chip

For the purpose of comparison...every sensing element...hall or magnetoresistive...is measured in Analog domain, goes trough Analog to digital conversion ( ADC) and in trough some sort of signal conditioning threatment...le't draw a simple flowchart of that magnet position to our joystick reading conversion

Gain amplifier
: used to amplify signat that hall or magnetoresistive element pick up. Most sensors have it fixed so such sensors have FIXED MAGNETIC SENSITIVITY. Some sensors can program Gain in factory, or even reprogram gain amplifier strenght "on the fly" ( like MLX 90363 )
MCU - Microcontroller, main chip to communicate with USB...can be poor or a solid good one, can have integrated various functions such as 10bit, 12bit, or even 16bit ADC unit, other communication protocols for digital sensors, buttons, etc.
ADC - analog to digital converter
DAC - digital to analog converter
PWM - pulse width modulation

CLASSIC HALL SENSOR ( Allegro A1302 or similar)
Hall element - gain amp. - ratiometric or linear voltage output ( analog) - ADC - Signal conditioning (on MCU) - USB output

Classic automotive setup KMZ41 magnetoresistive sensor - analog output
dual magnetoresistive bridge - 2x signal analog output ( sine and cosine) --- //chip with gain amp., ADC - conditioning - DAC analog output // ---wire ---- ADC( on MCU) - USB output

Classic automotive setup KMZ41 magnetoresistive sensor - digital PWM output
same as analog, but signal output from signal conditioning chip is not analog but 3 wire PWM signal...so there is no ADC conversion on main MCU

Alternative setup for KMZ41 - rely on usage of smart, powerful MCU
dual magnetoresistive bridge - 2x signal analog output - 2x gain amplifier - 2x ADC input on main MCU - powerfull signal conditioning on main MCU - USB output


There are other sensors , like NXP KMA200 magnetoresistor, or Melexis MLX90363...which have both sensing element, gain amplifier, ADC, signal conditioning on a single chip...and can give analog, PWM or SPI output toward MCU.

SPI is very intresting protocol. It is also DIGITAL, but these sensors can also communicate in BOTH WAYS....so signal is not just OUTPUT...but main MCU can communicate and change settings directly ON SENSOR.

There are other possibilities, but I will not complicate things even more :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAGNETORESISTOR VS. CLASSIC HALL ... magnetoresistor is better in most situations
MAGNETORESISTOR VS Melexis 3d Hall ---- MELEXIS IS BETTER !!!!

Reason is very simple. While magnetoresistors do measure angle of magnetic field, which is better than classic hall, they output signal using fixed gain amplifiers. However...signal output values CHANGE WHEN MAGNET DISTANCE CHANGED !!!!...which make magnetoresistor very sensitive to mechanical tolerance of a device

MELEXIS 3d HALL technology is BETTER as sensory is truthly smart. It has automatic gain control. It has multiple hall elements to measure magnetic field trough three axis. For example...if magnet distance changes sensor will only pick up more or less noise...but actual output values WILL NOT CHANGE !!!
Due to built in formulas for compensation it is also better for DIY..as it tolerate more misalignment of magnet and sensor
It is possible to use stronger magnets at only 1mm distance from sensor. In that case automatic gain will be automaticly reduced to minimum...so sensor is less likely to pick up magnetic disturbances than other sensors...my test show that in such setup MLX90363 sensor don't pick up disturbance of a moving M10 bolt on a distance of only 3 cm !!!!...mission impossible for other tested sensors.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You probably guessed it so far....that I've chosen digital sensor MLX90363 for my new electronics which should be ready soon.
My choice for a such Next generation sensor is because it can also serve in various other situations...Joystick for example :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I already see a question comming up something like :
What is the difference of MFG Crossind pedals with New Digital sensor VS current magnetoresistive sensor ??

Answer is : almost NONE !!!!
To explain myself. New digital sensor MLX 90363 has built in automatic gain, temperature reading, noise filtering, hysteresis filtering, also smaller non linearity error on a sensor itself...can read angles up to 360 degrees...but what does that all mean for end user of MFG Crossind rudder pedals - NOTHING...since these features are already built in my current firmware. If you followed how sensor to USB workflow is going...you probably guessed it right...very powerfull MCU does all the job for analog sensor...while next gen digital trixis hall does it all itselff, unleashing the power of MCU for other operations

Truth be told.... I AM THE ONE TO BENEFIT FROM NEW SENSOR BECAUSE :
- I will not have worry about centering magnet as I do now :-)
- no worries about small magnet displacement - now I have to be very carefull
- no worries about magnet distance...now I need to be very very very carefull about that :-)

END user...will not notice digital VS analog sensor...won't see a difference


Happy simming to you all
Milan

Hi, all.
I do not want to answer, but the truth - this is important.
First, the angle of my pedals + - 30 degrees. Milan properly written, 45.45 X but on 60 degrees (+-30) in my pedals.
This gives 2730 TRUE STABLE POSITIONS.
KMZ41 works at an angle in analog of 45 degrees.
If you have a 68 degrees, then your working angle artificially increased (stretched) from 45 degrees to 68 degrees - ie 51 per cent.This means that your calculations should be reduced by 33% (3090 TRUE YOURS POSITIONS = 2060 POSITIONS).Other positions - virtual.Even the sensor readings in my brake pedals will be better because I now only use digital sensors from Komaroff in conjunction with the controller of the Red Baron.
Show the test of your pedals in JoyTester2, and in DIView with the calibration is disabled like me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oSbSgGDQe8. And try to like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjClrNbZVNI.This will show the whole truth.
Sorry for my English.
Good luck.
SlawDevice.

#3992871 - 08/08/14 10:33 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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My Review derailed by sensor talk.


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Thrustmaster Warthog\X55 HOTAS:MFG crosswind\Saitek-combat-pro rudder pedals:TrackIR
#3993448 - 08/10/14 12:40 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
My Review derailed by sensor talk.

H1TMAN_ACTUA1. Sorry.
Just users are able to see with their own eyes the look of the pedals. But don't know about advantages of electronics installed in different pedals.
Therefore we had to fill this lack and to tell about details of electronics of reviewed pedals.
Thanks to all.

#3993516 - 08/10/14 03:58 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: Slaw]  
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Sorry H1TMAN_ACTUA1. There was some hype about sensors here so, like Komaroff said, some clarification was necessary.
I promise this is my last post about it. I won't be able to reply anyway as Croatian National glider's championship just started, and it's my duty at the club to tug gliders ( so I'll be "out of virtual" and "back to real" flying for most of my day).

My conclusion is there are differences in electronics, but electronics in both pedals are more superior than users ability to react...so real life electronics performance difference user will not be capable to notice while flying.
@Komaroff - This is not a place for a wider discussion about sensors. If you want we both continue to discuss and share our findings about sensors honestly and publicly as we did here...I suggest another thread to be opened for that subject.
Originally Posted By: Slaw

If you have a 68 degrees, then your working angle artificially increased (stretched) from 45 degrees to 68 degrees - ie 51 per cent.This means that your calculations should be reduced by 33% (3090 TRUE YOURS POSITIONS = 2060 POSITIONS).Other positions - virtual

I have to quote myself here...about drawing I published :
"NOTE : I'm not claiming that my pedals rotate 68 degrees, or that slaws rotate 36 degrees... I draw IMAGINED characteristics of both pedal style to clarify importance of mechanical design."

MFG Crosswind angle of rotation = +- 36 degrees ( 72 degrees total) x 45,45 = 3272 true positions without calibration. +- few positions because of tolerance in mechanical stops.
I don't understand your calculation...but KMZ41 measure +-45 degree in analog mode = TRUE...if only half output is used ( sin or cos output).
If you use -+30 degree angle like you say... your pedals have "longer throw" - more rudder movement to achieve that resolution. I will quote H1TMAN_ACTUA1 for that :
Originally Posted By: Slaw

The rang of motion is too long on Slaw pedal as well

Conclusion - MFG Crosswind has more resolution on shorter pedals throw (3272) than slaw on Long throw (2730)
Originally Posted By: Slaw

Show the test of your pedals in JoyTester2, and in DIView with the calibration is disabled like me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oSbSgGDQe8. And try to like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjClrNbZVNI.This will show the whole truth.

Calibration can be disabled trough MFG Configurator software. I've made it possible for easy servicing if there will ever be a need for that.

I would really like that someone of my customers turn calibration OFF...and confirm that my resolution reading on rudder axis is correct - to add credibility to my words here.
Also..On your other video...I would also like someone of my customers to :
- take spring off
- move rudder slowly by one increment so it clearly show that every increment of resolution is shown when calibration is off -approx 3272 positons
- to prove when calibration is turned ON...every increment of resolution is shown - FULL 4096 position !!!!...nothing skipped
- to prove that readings are noisless when filtering is set = 2

I hope H1TMAN_ACTUA1 can make such job...he is a right person and can repeat test on BOTH pedals, write results...so we can close this disscusion!

P.S. Another real world review was just published. Helo's are not my thing...but it's really a nice videov by "Dslyecxi"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_5keOriIo

#3993580 - 08/10/14 07:44 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: Komaroff]  
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Originally Posted By: Komaroff
Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
My Review derailed by sensor talk.

H1TMAN_ACTUA1. Sorry.
Just users are able to see with their own eyes the look of the pedals. But don't know about advantages of electronics installed in different pedals.
Therefore we had to fill this lack and to tell about details of electronics of reviewed pedals.
Thanks to all.


that's great and all but No sim pilot is going to feel the difference in sensor accuracy difference between these pedals and senors is not the main focusing point of my thread and review.

Please make your own thread about detailed sensors.


NZXT H440: WIN 8.1pro(UEFI)(G-sync)
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Thrustmaster Warthog\X55 HOTAS:MFG crosswind\Saitek-combat-pro rudder pedals:TrackIR
#3996771 - 08/16/14 08:21 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Hi all.
I think we need to stay in more detail on the details of the sensors.
Therefore, at the request of H1TMAN_ACTUA1, I opened a new topic about the sensors of these pedals.
Slaw vs. Milan the battle of electronics of pedals. Digital vs analog
Milan good luck in the championship.
Special thanks to Slaw, milan_croatia, H1TMAN_ACTUA1, Sokol1 for an interesting discussion.
Best regards.

#4007283 - 09/09/14 03:28 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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These pedals have been sold. Going to back to using Saitek Combat pro at my 2nd residence.

These are not worth $580+ UDS.

I hope the new user finds these more appealing then I did.

Last edited by H1TMAN_ACTUA1; 09/10/14 01:01 AM.

NZXT H440: WIN 8.1pro(UEFI)(G-sync)
EVGA X79-DARK: 4930k(GTX980)ROG swift PG278Q-Gsync
EVGA X79-SLI: 3930K(GTX980)Acer XB270H-Gsync
2xOCZ VECTOR SSD:
G.Skill RipJawsZ 16GB 2133mhz 9-11-10-28:
SOUND BLASTER Z:
Thrustmaster Warthog\X55 HOTAS:MFG crosswind\Saitek-combat-pro rudder pedals:TrackIR
#4007654 - 09/10/14 07:27 AM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Hi H1TMAN,

May I wask what changed in your opinion of the Slaw pedals. You seemed preaty happy with them at first. And even though you expressed preference for Milan's. You had indicated that Slaw's were an awesome piece of hardware in their own right. So... What changed if you don't mind me asking?

#4007672 - 09/10/14 09:28 AM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
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Originally Posted By: H1TMAN_ACTUA1
These pedals have been sold. Going to back to using Saitek Combat pro at my 2nd residence.

These are not worth $580+ UDS.

I hope the new user finds these more appealing then I did.


You paid me for pedals 346.45 euros on my bank account and 29 euros on paypal. In total, 375.45 euro. That is about 485-490 dollars. $ 580 + UDS????
If you do not mind, I'll show here, these banking and PayPal operations.


SlawDevice

Last edited by Slaw; 09/10/14 09:38 AM.
#4007774 - 09/10/14 01:42 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: Slaw]  
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 63
H1TMAN_ACTUA1 Offline
Dustin G
H1TMAN_ACTUA1  Offline
Dustin G
Junior Member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 63
Newport beach CA
Slaw,

you coerced me not to use paypal. Would you like me to post our entire email chain? I don't think so.

You coerced me not to use paypal because you were going on vacation and didn't want to wait for paypal to send the money to your bank account.


So to make YOU happy I did the USD to Euro conversion on google($510.68 USD at that time), my bank charged me $45 to send that wire BTW directly to Your bank, then your bank chanrged you a convergence fee and you ended up being short, then blamed that on me. I should have made you eat that! Since I wanted to use paypal from the get go.

So then I said ok. NOW I'm going to use paypal to make up for the difference that you didn't account for with your own bank. This BTW is why I wanted to use Paypal from the get go. I think this is why Milan uses Paypal as well.

So I send the remaining balance via paypal and pay another fee for the USD to Euro convergence.

after multiple fees I spent exactly ($510.68+$45=$555.68(bank-fee+wire) add paypal $42.58= grand total $598.26 USD) for your pedals That I feel the more I use them the more I regret buying and spending that much money on something that feels far under par to Milans MFG. pedals. Id rather sell your pedals, go back to using the crappy Saitek combat pro pedals again and get some of my money back.

Now that's how I really feel and what really happened. I spared you my REAL opinion after posting that I'm selling but since you want to get defensive and question why I'm selling your pedals and how much I paid for them. I'm putting you on full blast now.

Despite all that BS I went through with banks, wires, fee's and more fee's I gave a fair and honest review of your pedals. Having used them now for a longer period of time I really think you need to go back to the drawing board, Because let me tell you something. Milan's MFG's own your sub par pedals.


I say this to all you Simmers looking to buy an expensive pair of pedals. Buy Milans and you'll have no hassles or worries..You'll get what you pay for. As for slaw the purchasing experience was bad and the user experience is not worth the premium price tag.

I think stating that I'm going to go back to using Saitek combat pro pedals speaks for itself.


Last edited by H1TMAN_ACTUA1; 09/11/14 02:37 AM.

NZXT H440: WIN 8.1pro(UEFI)(G-sync)
EVGA X79-DARK: 4930k(GTX980)ROG swift PG278Q-Gsync
EVGA X79-SLI: 3930K(GTX980)Acer XB270H-Gsync
2xOCZ VECTOR SSD:
G.Skill RipJawsZ 16GB 2133mhz 9-11-10-28:
SOUND BLASTER Z:
Thrustmaster Warthog\X55 HOTAS:MFG crosswind\Saitek-combat-pro rudder pedals:TrackIR
#4008887 - 09/12/14 05:12 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 63
H1TMAN_ACTUA1 Offline
Dustin G
H1TMAN_ACTUA1  Offline
Dustin G
Junior Member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 63
Newport beach CA
No Response Slaw?

Would you like me the post thee entire email chain?


NZXT H440: WIN 8.1pro(UEFI)(G-sync)
EVGA X79-DARK: 4930k(GTX980)ROG swift PG278Q-Gsync
EVGA X79-SLI: 3930K(GTX980)Acer XB270H-Gsync
2xOCZ VECTOR SSD:
G.Skill RipJawsZ 16GB 2133mhz 9-11-10-28:
SOUND BLASTER Z:
Thrustmaster Warthog\X55 HOTAS:MFG crosswind\Saitek-combat-pro rudder pedals:TrackIR
#4008934 - 09/12/14 06:29 PM Re: Slaw VS. Milan the battle of the pedals [Re: H1TMAN_ACTUA1]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 111
milan_croatia Offline
Member
milan_croatia  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 111
Split, Croatia
Uhhh....things are getting "ugly" in this thread :-(

-----------------------------------------------
@Komaroff and Troll : I belive you ment on Croatian National Glider's Championship. No need to thank me... I'm just a lucky bloke who happen to be a tug pilot to tug these gliders( interpretation : Fly from dawn to dusk and do whatevery crazy manouvers I like for free :-)
------------------------------------------------

About H1TMAN_ACTUA1's experience with slaw's.... I would like to add my comments there :


As I said before I never tested Slaw pedals, but only by looking at the pictures I can write thing or two about your case here, as well as my experience as a producer

- When I started selling MFG Crosswind I also asked money in advance on my bank account from customers...probably for same reasons as slaw - to get me money up front so I can buy materials for pedals ( paypal hold money for 30 days).
- I also advise my customers overseas to use paypal or western union. This is specialy true for customers from Australia who payed by bank transfer. They paid all transfer fees but due to the fact that money is transfered trough "intermediate" banks in europe additional charges apear. Unfortunately...when customer send money he, or his bank, cannot know how big will fees be...or will they happen at all :-(.... So , in cases where paypal is not an option it is best to use Western Union or similar for overseas payments because fees are known up front.
I also went into that "trap" because of lack of experience, probably same reason as Slaw. With experience things get better and good communication and explanation with customers is a way to get things sorted. I didn't ask customers to make additional payment...they are not the ones to blaim. It's me to blaim that I let them make such payments in a first place. I also gave my first customers a special lower price for their risks of being first and all things that that fact implies. I belive that is fair.

- My first customers also had some issues with pedals not recognised in "wings over flanders fields", some conflicts with Xbox one controller. I worked hard and solved these issues as fast as possible. It is important thing to say that pedals are not to blame...it's how these games are coded to blame ( underlying Microsoft CFS3 game engine) but I did my best to overcome those issues. It is also important to say that my customers were in communication with me all the time so they did not panic about it but gave me constructive e-mails about their problem which led to solutions. I wrote about these problems before in my SimHQ development thread as well as on ROF forum to give slaw a "clue" how to solve a compatibility problem.

- about value of pedals, or "bang for a buck". I belive both Slaw pedals and my Crosswinds are worth every penny and more. To understand why I have such opinion on slaw pedals just by looking at the pictures you need to understnad how things are made and how much difference it is to make small batch custom product compared to serial production of cheap crap stuff in China. To give you a hint...check pricing of any specialist mechanical part for some machine or similar. Real value of our MFG or Slaw, considering quality and quantity produced, is more like 1000-1500 dollars. Both me and Slaw consider this a hobby first, not a business, trying to give you best price possible. I don't want to go deeper here, how quantity dictate prices when buying parts for pedals, how many hours of electronics development, CNC cost, etc. I just give yuo a glimpse to understand why price is not a rip off...so you will understand better why Slaw wanted to "buy back" his own product from you. My best guess is that slaw belive that "you don't deserve to have a remarkable piece of his passionate build" :-) ... I can understand that. I can only say that I'm happy becouse I never had to deal with such customer :-)

- My two cent's about custom produced gear of any kind
I cannot stress this hard enough : Not every custom made product is better than cheap plastic counterpart in their function !!!! Due to use of better quality materials custom made products are usualy more robust...but not necessary better. I am not saying anything specific about any product out there, pedals or anything else. I'm saying the fact affecting any product that is built as "one off" or in small quantity. Problem arise because lack of testing, prototypes, experience ... Think of it this way : If a one off products didn't need improvements we would still drive cars from 50's, if you understand what I mean.
Why I say this ? My product is a custom one ! Well, yes. That's why I chose CNC production. Don't think I managed to make a good product from a "one off", but thanks to CNC production I've made tons of improvements over time. Most producers don't have such ability because they rely on expensive molds for production. Modifying part mean buying/ making new mold which cost a lot. Downside of my CNC production is that no matter how many parts I build...using same process of production is not going to cost any lower. Using molding process or similar cost reduce drastically with increased quantities.
Looking back 3 years since I started with my personal pedals, all the changes and time spent, all I can say is that despite all engineering,experience,dedication,testing, modifications ... most important factor in my pedals is PURE LUCK in finding a right solution for a given problem :-)

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