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#3981242 - 07/15/14 04:39 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: scrim
It's nice to see that you completely ignore anything else than comments about the (very un-professional) moderating on the ED forums, and completely ignore the remaining 90% of my posts concerning how ED has yet to explain why they got involved in DCS:WW2, how they failed to ensure that it wouldn't completely collapse withing a few months (or weeks if we're to go off the communication) or the long repeated lie that RRG are not obliged to issue refunds.

This was a joint venture between RRG and ED (not my words, but the exact words of the KS campaign), and ED is acting like they are doing the pledgers a favour by "honouring" their investments with only a fraction of what they were promised.


I am ignoring everything else because everything else has been beaten to death...

#3981248 - 07/15/14 04:50 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: scrim
and completely ignore the remaining 90% of my posts concerning how ED has yet to explain why they got involved in DCS:WW2,


He doesn't know because ED and RRG had a reciprocal NDA, which ED has with all 3rd parties (AFAIK). Bluntly put, it means it's none of your business as far as they're concerned.

Quote:
This was a joint venture between RRG and ED (not my words, but the exact words of the KS campaign), and ED is acting like they are doing the pledgers a favour by "honouring" their investments with only a fraction of what they were promised.


ED is not RRG and RRG is not ED. ED didn't make the promises, they don't have any responsibility to police the 3rd party either. The 3rd party licenses certain things from ED (again AFAIK) to develop their product, and they get to sell it on ED's DCSW platform.

Did ED believe that the WW2 project is worthwhile? They obviously do. Are they responsible to refund the 150k or keep the rewards as they are? Ask a lawyer and let us know; I imagine ED doesn't have 150k to pull out of wherever to refund, especially since that money was not paid to them. That money is gone.


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#3981257 - 07/15/14 05:25 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost

especially since that money was not paid to them. That money is gone.


While that money is gone in dollar form…the backers money is not gone as far as it's in the models/code that ED now has in their hands.

So just to be clear…it's OK for ED to take the project that the backers money helped create…and can pick what rewards they want to honor?

I doubt that's how the folks at Kickstarter see how things should work.


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#3981259 - 07/15/14 05:26 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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Last edited by SiThSpAwN; 07/15/14 05:30 PM.
#3981265 - 07/15/14 05:44 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
While that money is gone in dollar form…the backers money is not gone as far as it's in the models/code that ED now has in their hands.


Yep, ED could have just let them go instead and not touched the thing with a 10' pole.

Quote:
So just to be clear…it's OK for ED to take the project that the backers money helped create…and can pick what rewards they want to honor?


Yes, it is. They didn't make any promises. Again, they could have chosen to do nothing, and then backers would also get precisely nothing as well.
I'm fairly confident that if Luthier is sitting in Russia, you'd have a bit of tough luck reaching him for any sanctions. He might not be able to use KS ever again though and his rep would be fried. As things are, we don't really know what transpired, and those who do know aren't going to talk - that's where the NDA comes in.
Think about that while you're deciding whether what ED did is ok or not.

I see two options - but since I lack imagination, and I'm obviously horrifically biased, go ahead and throw in more if you like:

1) ED (or anyone else, really) takes it over and restructures rewards so they make sense financially ( because ED is not in the business of losing money).
2) ED leaves it be, and backers get diddly squat.

Quote:
I doubt that's how the folks at Kickstarter see how things should work.


You can ask KS. You can also ask a lawyer - I really don't know enough to answer that.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 07/15/14 05:46 PM.

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#3981270 - 07/15/14 06:04 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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Let's say you hire a builder to mend your roof, pipes and driveway. You agree to a price, pay him, he starts working, and disappears before he's finished anything. Then his employer turns up and tells you he's going to take over, because the builder simply couldn't be trusted to do his job. His employer uses all the materials the builder purchased with your money, and starts working on what had been started on the driveway.

At this point he says "my employee told me how much he was payed and what he was going to do for that money, and I accepted it. However, personally I have found that the costs won't work out. I'll finish the driveway, which will take about four times longer than you were told, but nothing else."

When you protest, he says he's doing you a favour, and that you should've realised that the first offer was too good to be true, both in terms of costs and time schedule, and therefor you should shut up and stop being such an ungrateful fool.


And you would find that acceptable because?

#3981273 - 07/15/14 06:06 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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ED wasnt RRG's employer.... so your analogy is flawed... try again.

#3981277 - 07/15/14 06:10 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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I'm waiting for someone to compare the ED->RRG Situation to Hostess Bakery........ :facepalm

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Last edited by SkateZilla; 07/15/14 06:11 PM.

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#3981279 - 07/15/14 06:19 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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Lets say that the original builder quoted you an insanely low price, and you understand that quality costs money. Let's also say that if you were to get your money refunded, all the work done at this point will be undone, and the mending of roof etc, will now never take place.

Perspective should be maintained. In the long haul, I'd rather ED were in business than not.

#3981280 - 07/15/14 06:20 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost


Quote:
So just to be clear…it's OK for ED to take the project that the backers money helped create…and can pick what rewards they want to honor?


Yes, it is.


Well then…I guess there is nothing to stop:

An individual to set up a dummy company…promise rewards and collect Kickstarter funds
Fold his dummy company after a period of time…than turn over the assets the Kickstarter funds created to his real company
Not be responsible for any rewards promised

I'm guessing the ED mod team don't see this as a problem for gamers…it's kinda setting a president for gamers to truly get swindled in the future. I guess that's what happens when your not really a gamer anymore.


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#3981283 - 07/15/14 06:23 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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Personally speaking, I hope someone, someday, comes out with a modern WWII flight sim that encompasses the air war, from the landings at Normandy, to Berlin. Not just the Russian war, not the German view, but the whole war. Everyone flies their aircraft, across the European struggle.
Most of the 'major' players, bombers, fighters, etc.
Some realistic maps, and a single player campaign.

You develop that, and I'll buy it.
Price doesn't really matter much.
I have thousands in my computer, peripherals, sound, etc.....
Most of us now have the ability to run the game, but we have no real WWII Flight Simulator.
We had several about a decade ago, CFS, EAW, Janes, etc...and they were developed in less than a year.
Now we have much faster computers, better displays, but no good flight sims to match, not one.

All I have is IL2/FB/1946, which is a 'joke', when it comes to the true abilities of the Mustang, and many of the other aircraft. It's a Russian view, that obviously is incorrect.
I really would like a realistic combat flight simulator, and a US campaign.
The market is there. If you don't wait too long wink . I'm sure they'd pay what was asked.

But if you can't hand me the game, I don't hand you my money.

Just my take on things.
Sad someone doesn't have the backing to develop that, when the small market, is so eager to buy it.
IMHO, for 'any' price.

Best wishes to ED, and their vision.
And thanks to DCS for developing the Mustang.
But if you don't put it all together, it's worthless to most people.

Sad it's been such a struggle, for such a viable product.
You've got a lot of the aircraft being developed in DCS, the terrain can't be that difficult.
Developers have had over a decade to come up with something....it's just baffling to me.
DCS has a nice Mustang, that fly's.
I dunno. The community has been waiting for over a decade.

But I'm just a consumer.....with money wink
I'm not an 'investor'.
You want my money, give me a product.

That's how you get rich.
That's how I get a flight sim I like.

Or not, that's life.
Hope it works out for all of us.

Here is a clue to people who have 'given away' their money. When you buy stock in a company, you get a 'stock certificate', and you give them your cash. It's an exchange. Sometimes you make money, sometimes you don't.

But when you just give people your cash, and have no legal promises to show for it.
It's their cash now, and you have nothing. And can expect 'nothing', legally. If the company goes broke, you have nothing. If they don't wish to return your money, your screwed. That's the way the world works.
Some lessons are learned the hard way. Some are more expensive than others.

It's nice some people have 'donated' their cash for a 'promise'. But that's just what it is, a 'donation'.
That is not a 'investment'. Move on, when it doesn't work out. Some lessons are much more expensive.

Live and learn. wink


"Murphy's Law"
#3981285 - 07/15/14 06:24 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: NineLine]  
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Originally Posted By: SiThSpAwN
ED wasnt RRG's employer.... so your analogy is flawed... try again.


What part of "joint venture between RRG and ED" is it that you refuse to accept? Not their employer, but certainly a party very much holding a mentionable degree of accountability and influence over the works undertaken by RRG. RRG came to them asking for their permission, they said yes. RRG specifically called it a joint venture between them and ED, they didn't object. RRG openly promised their rewards, ED didn't object, despite finding them so unviable that they're acting like they've made a sacrifice by only living up to 1/3 of the promised rewards. ED had no objections to Luthier (who's got a less than splendid history regarding WW2 flight sims) offering huge rewards that they say they themselves can't fulfil.

These things you claim have been beaten to death. That may be true for the questions, but ED has yet to pipe up even once and answering any of them.

#3981286 - 07/15/14 06:27 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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How about the people who think that ED has a legal responsibility for what RRG did go find a lawyer, and then report back on what the lawyer thinks, and everyone else just drops the subject? This endless speculation, name-calling and going around in circles is achieving precisely nothing.

#3981288 - 07/15/14 06:28 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10

Well then…I guess there is nothing to stop:


Whining about it here isnt going to stop that.

Accusing ED without concrete proof isnt going to stop that.

Accusing ED mods of not buying into your conspiracy theories.... not going to stop that.

I told you how to get a refund. In fact, if you pledged 40 bucks... sell your rewards for an extra 10 bucks so you can get some cheese to go with that whine.

#3981293 - 07/15/14 06:33 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: scrim]  
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Originally Posted By: scrim
Originally Posted By: SiThSpAwN
ED wasnt RRG's employer.... so your analogy is flawed... try again.


What part of "joint venture between RRG and ED" is it that you refuse to accept? Not their employer, but certainly a party very much holding a mentionable degree of accountability and influence over the works undertaken by RRG. RRG came to them asking for their permission, they said yes. RRG specifically called it a joint venture between them and ED, they didn't object. RRG openly promised their rewards, ED didn't object, despite finding them so unviable that they're acting like they've made a sacrifice by only living up to 1/3 of the promised rewards. ED had no objections to Luthier (who's got a less than splendid history regarding WW2 flight sims) offering huge rewards that they say they themselves can't fulfil.

These things you claim have been beaten to death. That may be true for the questions, but ED has yet to pipe up even once and answering any of them.


Joint venture doesnt mean they were employed by ED, you refuse to accept the fact that ED allowed another company to run their own show. You refuse to look at the facts, or even read what has been posted already (a fact you just proved on the ED boards moments ago).

And you keep going back to Ilya's history... well shame on you for backing a project of his knowing his history... you are now part of the problem as well.

Last edited by SiThSpAwN; 07/15/14 06:36 PM.
#3981302 - 07/15/14 06:42 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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Sithspawn, the facts are that we don't know what the facts are. Just drop it...

#3981303 - 07/15/14 06:50 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Murphy]  
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Originally Posted By: Murphy
Personally speaking, I hope someone, someday, comes out with a modern WWII flight sim that encompasses the air war, from the landings at Normandy, to Berlin. Not just the Russian war, not the German view, but the whole war. Everyone flies their aircraft, across the European struggle.
Most of the 'major' players, bombers, fighters, etc.
Some realistic maps, and a single player campaign.

You develop that, and I'll buy it.
Price doesn't really matter much.
I have thousands in my computer, peripherals, sound, etc.....
Most of us now have the ability to run the game, but we have no real WWII Flight Simulator.
We had several about a decade ago, CFS, EAW, Janes, etc...and they were developed in less than a year.
Now we have much faster computers, better displays, but no good flight sims to match, not one.

All I have is IL2/FB/1946, which is a 'joke', when it comes to the true abilities of the Mustang, and many of the other aircraft. It's a Russian view, that obviously is incorrect.
I really would like a realistic combat flight simulator, and a US campaign.
The market is there. If you don't wait too long wink . I'm sure they'd pay what was asked.

But if you can't hand me the game, I don't hand you my money.

Just my take on things.
Sad someone doesn't have the backing to develop that, when the small market, is so eager to buy it.
IMHO, for 'any' price.

Best wishes to ED, and their vision.
And thanks to DCS for developing the Mustang.
But if you don't put it all together, it's worthless to most people.

Sad it's been such a struggle, for such a viable product.
You've got a lot of the aircraft being developed in DCS, the terrain can't be that difficult.
Developers have had over a decade to come up with something....it's just baffling to me.
DCS has a nice Mustang, that fly's.
I dunno. The community has been waiting for over a decade.

But I'm just a consumer.....with money wink
I'm not an 'investor'.
You want my money, give me a product.

That's how you get rich.
That's how I get a flight sim I like.

Or not, that's life.
Hope it works out for all of us.

Here is a clue to people who have 'given away' their money. When you buy stock in a company, you get a 'stock certificate', and you give them your cash. It's an exchange. Sometimes you make money, sometimes you don't.

But when you just give people your cash, and have no legal promises to show for it.
It's their cash now, and you have nothing. And can expect 'nothing', legally. If the company goes broke, you have nothing. If they don't wish to return your money, your screwed. That's the way the world works.
Some lessons are learned the hard way. Some are more expensive than others.

It's nice some people have 'donated' their cash for a 'promise'. But that's just what it is, a 'donation'.
That is not a 'investment'. Move on, when it doesn't work out. Some lessons are much more expensive.

Live and learn. wink



We'll be gettin' a Normandy map.

Betwix the DCS WWII Aircraft and VEAO's Collection... we should have most countries covered (minus Japan).

I just like being able to start the 'stang in like 5 seconds and taxi away lol.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 07/15/14 06:53 PM.

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#3981304 - 07/15/14 06:51 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: TychosElk]  
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Originally Posted By: TychosElk
Sithspawn, the facts are that we don't know what the facts are. Just drop it...


Soon as Scrim, who knows even less of the facts, stops posting his BS, I will be more than happy to drop it.

#3981309 - 07/15/14 06:59 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Sim]  
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Do you really that attitude is going to achieve anything?

#3981311 - 07/15/14 07:00 PM Re: Luthier out. ED is in. [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Well then…I guess there is nothing to stop:

An individual to set up a dummy company…promise rewards and collect Kickstarter funds
Fold his dummy company after a period of time…than turn over the assets the Kickstarter funds created to his real company
Not be responsible for any rewards promised


There are laws against fraud, so, yes, there's definitely something to put a stop to such a thing.

Quote:
I'm guessing the ED mod team don't see this as a problem for gamers…it's kinda setting a president for gamers to truly get swindled in the future. I guess that's what happens when your not really a gamer anymore.


ED isn't in the business of protecting people from their own investments, be they successful or not. KS is an investment. You hand over your money for a promise that may or may not be successful. KS' rules about refunds are neat and all, but guess what happens if that money's gone: Yep, you don't get to see any of it. And there's nothing that KS or the investor can do anything about it.

People who were paid out of that KS money aren't going to return it. Luthier isn't going to return it. I doubt ED has the slightest inclination of paying it out of their own pockets either, especially since they were not the ones to make promises.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 07/15/14 07:04 PM.

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