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#3732748 - 02/08/13 08:37 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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About O'Grady:

Quote:
Six days after O'Grady was shot down, U.S. Marines, braving Serbian missiles and rebel guns, flew helicopters into hostile territory and rescued the pilot who had remained in hiding after being shot down.

Members of a de-mining team had recently reported the location of scattered wreckage of a military aircraft. The wreckage was located between the towns of Prijedor and Drvar in what is now Republika Srpska, the Bosnian Serb half of postwar Bosnia. The crash site is densely thicketed and in a mountainous area of known and suspected mine hazards.

A survey team conducted a thorough search of the area, discovering the main impact point and many pieces of the aircraft spread over a wide area. They found several man-size pieces of the wing and airframe, but most of the wreckage consisted of small metal fragments.


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3732753 - 02/08/13 08:44 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Not 100%, but Im pretty sure all of 4 MiG-29s destroyed on the ground were destroyed long before 7th June. So they destroyed 3 models/decoys that day.

#3732771 - 02/08/13 09:04 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
About O'Grady:

Quote:
Six days after O'Grady was shot down, U.S. Marines, braving Serbian missiles and rebel guns, flew helicopters into hostile territory and rescued the pilot who had remained in hiding after being shot down.

Members of a de-mining team had recently reported the location of scattered wreckage of a military aircraft. The wreckage was located between the towns of Prijedor and Drvar in what is now Republika Srpska, the Bosnian Serb half of postwar Bosnia. The crash site is densely thicketed and in a mountainous area of known and suspected mine hazards.

A survey team conducted a thorough search of the area, discovering the main impact point and many pieces of the aircraft spread over a wide area. They found several man-size pieces of the wing and airframe, but most of the wreckage consisted of small metal fragments.



I have all the necessary details of the O'Grady incident...


... just cannot create it into SAMSIM.
sigh


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3732793 - 02/08/13 09:44 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Vympel]  
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Originally Posted By: Vympel
Not 100%, but Im pretty sure all of 4 MiG-29s destroyed on the ground were destroyed long before 7th June. So they destroyed 3 models/decoys that day.


The history of the MiG-29's during OAF, is one thing I never investigated deeply.
I know, that the 204 IAP of Batajnica had 14 MiG-29 and 2 MiG-29U fighters when the war started.


Last day before the war broke out, 2 MiG-29 was sent to Nis, 2 to Ponikve, and one to Podgorica. (9 stayed at Batajnica, excluding the trainers)
Note that MiG-29 is named as L-18 in Serbia, while the MiG-21 is named as L-17.


24th of March, US F-15C "Knife-13" killed MiG-29.
24th of March, US F-15C "Edge-61" killed MiG-29.
24th of March, Dutch F-16AM killed MiG-29.
26th of March, US F-15C "Dirk-21" killed 2x MiG-29.
4th of May, US F-16CJ "Puma-11" killed MiG-29.

... so total of 6 MiG-29 was destroyed in dogfight, without achieving any result.
(what happened with the other 8+2, I do not know.)



Last edited by Hpasp; 02/08/13 10:01 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3732834 - 02/08/13 11:06 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Vympel Offline
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Total of 5 MiG-29s survived the war. 4 MiG-29B and 1 MiG-29UB. One 29B has crashed since then.
Six were shot down by NATO aircraft
Four were destroyed on the ground (3 in Batajnica Air Base, 1 In Nis)
One was shot down by KUB (Friendly fire)

I also read that one of the six shot down bu NATO had Strela-1 fragments in wreckage, hit on its way down probably.

As for not achieving results, we must mention the conditions the aircraft were in. The country was under sanctions for almost 10 years at the time war broke out. Despite the fact that every aircraft took off with all systems operational, after a few minutes in the air things started to go bad. Some of the most critical systems quit working (Radar, SPO, electrical generators...). So basically they were flying blind at medium altitude. They had to rely on R-73s. Unfortunately NATO situational awareness, numbers and BVR superiority were more than a match for MiGs with only GCI. And it was not effective GCI, I read some transcripts of radio communications and it was chaos.

#3742674 - 02/27/13 08:13 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

The 250/3rd PVO had an infra camera in place of the Karat...
... they used it twice, and failed to hit.


WOW! Somehow I missed that!!! Zoltan Dani's SNR has infrared????? jawdrop

By the way, not sure it is for this topic but:

Comprasion F-117/F-22

Note "Rate of climb" section... 80 m/s for F-117... If we multiplied this by time of engagement we will have ~ 2km change in altitude... thumbsup

P.S. No idea is this the real rate of climb or not...

#3967666 - 06/14/14 11:38 AM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79
Interesting, they shot at big parameter and used TV on night?..


The P18 was working as advertised.

The 250/3rd PVO had an infra camera in place of the Karat...
... they used it twice, and failed to hit.




Could you confirm again that Dani's battery is equipped with IR-TOV (those famous "Philips" things?). Maybe F-117A is downed with it, but all we knew is just a lie????????? Does anyone ever heard from a member of the crew in interview about such thing on the UNV??????

#3967673 - 06/14/14 11:59 AM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79
Interesting, they shot at big parameter and used TV on night?..


The P18 was working as advertised.

The 250/3rd PVO had an infra camera in place of the Karat...
... they used it twice, and failed to hit.




Could you confirm again that Dani's battery is equipped with IR-TOV (those famous "Philips" things?). Maybe F-117A is downed with it, but all we knew is just a lie????????? Does anyone ever heard from a member of the crew in interview about such thing on the UNV??????


YES and NO.
As always, if you discuss real history.
biggrin

3/250 fired 7 times, and used 13 missiles.

1. 1999.03.27. (Simanovci) - 2 missiles launched, only one zachvat - F117A kill
2. 1999.04.29. (Ogar) - 1 missile launched (the other was not due to PU failure) - miss
3. 1999.04.30. (Petrovcic) - 2 missiles launched, 1 had radio proxy worked
4. 1999.05.02. (Karlovcic) - 2 missiles launched, only one zachvat - F16CG kill
5. 1999.05.20. (Becmen) - 2 missiles launched, 2 had radio proxy worked
6. 1999.05.31. (Karlovcic) - first infra TV shooting, 2 missiles launched, both miss
7. 1999.06.08. (Dec) - second infra TV shooting, 2 missiles launched, both miss


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3967682 - 06/14/14 12:11 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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1. Does this infrared was mounted on 27.03.2014
2. Why not used in other cases (bad weather?).
3. Now about the other UNV, does they use it more?

#3967688 - 06/14/14 12:21 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
1. Does this infrared was mounted on 27.03.2014
2. Why not used in other cases (bad weather?).
3. Now about the other UNV, does they use it more?


First infra shooting was the 6th.
Both infra shooting was miss. (alignment problems, and camera infra sensor overload due to the brightness of the missile engine against the night sky leading to target loss)

Weather was generally bad during OAF.

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/14/14 12:28 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3967695 - 06/14/14 01:00 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79
1. Does this infrared was mounted on 27.03.2014
2. Why not used in other cases (bad weather?).
3. Now about the other UNV, does they use it more?


First infra shooting was the 6th.
Both infra shooting was miss. (alignment problems, and camera infra sensor overload due to the brightness of the missile engine against the night sky leading to target loss)

Weather was generally bad during OAF.


Why not used earlier?
Also no answer of Q1...

Last edited by piston79; 06/14/14 03:29 PM.
#3967747 - 06/14/14 03:08 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79
1. Does this infrared was mounted on 27.03.2014
2. Why not used in other cases (bad weather?).
3. Now about the other UNV, does they use it more?


First infra shooting was the 6th.
Both infra shooting was miss. (alignment problems, and camera infra sensor overload due to the brightness of the missile engine against the night sky leading to target loss)

Weather was generally bad during OAF.




Why not used earlier?

Also no answer of Q1...


1, I was not there, so it is not a first hand account.
2, I had the possibility to use several different first hand accounts. (who were there and done that)
3, IR TV is not the magic solution against US-SEAD, it has several and strong drawbacks.
4, Yugoslav air defense used multiple trick to lure NATO...
.. some worked (active decoys, fake firing positions made from plywood, R60 SAM launchers), some not (IRTV).

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/14/14 03:18 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3969027 - 06/17/14 08:18 AM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Hello friends.

I have question regarding the circumstances of downing of Vega-31. It has long been said that on that night only the Stealth aircraft flew over Serbia, no SEAD and no ECM. But the book "NATO's Air War for Kosovo A Strategic and Operational Assessment" by Rand...

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1365.html

...in Chapter 6, page 118 claims the following:

"The second alleged procedural error entailed an EA-6B support jammer that was said to have been operating not only too far away from the F-117 (80 to 100 miles) to have been of much protective value, but also out of proper alignment with the offending threat radars, resulting in inefficient jamming."

Though this jammer would not impact the operation of SNR-125, it might had impact on operation on P-18 radar, which might explain why the F-117 was detected at such short range. Does anyone has any information if the meter-wave jamming was actually present on that occasion?


Last edited by Lonewolf357; 06/17/14 08:24 AM.
#3969721 - 06/18/14 05:33 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357


...in Chapter 6, page 118 claims the following:

"The second alleged procedural error entailed an EA-6B support jammer that was said to have been operating not only too far away from the F-117 (80 to 100 miles) to have been of much protective value, but also out of proper alignment with the offending threat radars, resulting in inefficient jamming."

Though this jammer would not impact the operation of SNR-125, it might had impact on operation on P-18 radar, which might explain why the F-117 was detected at such short range. Does anyone has any information if the meter-wave jamming was actually present on that occasion?



Too far and not aligned ~ not present at all...

Me, personally, never heard about jamming on interviews with the crew (but have in mind I didn't understand serbian as well...)... I think that the most trusted source from inside is the Anicic book "Smena", which our dear forummate Vympel translated for us (at least the important part:


whenpigsfly SMENA - F-177 appears....

(Note, that P-18 is really prone to jamming, and they didn't see any jamming at all, or at least doesn't mentioned, so probably the EA-6B was really "out of line"....)

Last edited by piston79; 06/18/14 05:45 PM.
#3969875 - 06/18/14 09:15 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357


...in Chapter 6, page 118 claims the following:

"The second alleged procedural error entailed an EA-6B support jammer that was said to have been operating not only too far away from the F-117 (80 to 100 miles) to have been of much protective value, but also out of proper alignment with the offending threat radars, resulting in inefficient jamming."

Though this jammer would not impact the operation of SNR-125, it might had impact on operation on P-18 radar, which might explain why the F-117 was detected at such short range. Does anyone has any information if the meter-wave jamming was actually present on that occasion?



Too far and not aligned ~ not present at all...

Me, personally, never heard about jamming on interviews with the crew (but have in mind I didn't understand serbian as well...)... I think that the most trusted source from inside is the Anicic book "Smena", which our dear forummate Vympel translated for us (at least the important part:


whenpigsfly SMENA - F-177 appears....

(Note, that P-18 is really prone to jamming, and they didn't see any jamming at all, or at least doesn't mentioned, so probably the EA-6B was really "out of line"....)


Hello, piston79!
I asked my question because there was a real "holy war" on some Russian forums between "patriots" and "westerners" regarding the circumstances of downing of Vega-31 and some aspects of it are still unclear. The description of this event from Anicic' book was translated into Russian by one man some time ago, serving as one of the few authoritative sources of information.

One of the most hotly debated aspects is the range at which F-117 was detected by P-18 radar. Previously, all Russian experts, as well as many western ones claimed that such aircraft as F-117 cannot be made truly stealthy in the meter waveband due to the nature of wave scattering - resonant scattering occurs instead of optical. Therefore, they claimed that RCS of F-117 in meter waveband should be much, much higher than in centimeter or decimeter waveband - some even claiming the figure of 1 square meter, and therefore it could be detected by P-18 at very long range. Due to this, the fact that it was only detected at the range of 23 to 35 km, according to various sources, causes a great deal of discussions. Because if we will take a figure from Anicic' book (23 km) and compare it with the well-known performance of P-18 radar, we would find that the meter-wave RCS of F-117 is exceptionally small - comparable to that in centimeter band, if not smaller.

Some people are trying to explain this by claiming that the P-18 might not have been operating continuously - thay turned it on after some pause and instantly detected a target. Some claim that the jamming might have been present, greatly reducing the detection range. Some claim that the radar might have been in poor technical condition. Other side claims that Lockheed engineers have defied the laws of physics and managed to reduce a meter-wave RCS to an amazing degree.

This English translation by Vympel is very interesting (thank you for finding it, I somehow overlooked it back then!), as its starts a bit earlier than mentioned Russian one and includes an extremely important phrase ("There are no close targets in the air. There are plenty at long ranges, and different azimuths"). It seems that both the jamming and intermittment operation theories are unfounded. I think I really need to learn Serbian... wacky




Last edited by Lonewolf357; 06/18/14 09:31 PM.
#3969881 - 06/18/14 09:27 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357


...in Chapter 6, page 118 claims the following:

"The second alleged procedural error entailed an EA-6B support jammer that was said to have been operating not only too far away from the F-117 (80 to 100 miles) to have been of much protective value, but also out of proper alignment with the offending threat radars, resulting in inefficient jamming."

Though this jammer would not impact the operation of SNR-125, it might had impact on operation on P-18 radar, which might explain why the F-117 was detected at such short range. Does anyone has any information if the meter-wave jamming was actually present on that occasion?



Too far and not aligned ~ not present at all...

Me, personally, never heard about jamming on interviews with the crew (but have in mind I didn't understand serbian as well...)... I think that the most trusted source from inside is the Anicic book "Smena", which our dear forummate Vympel translated for us (at least the important part:


whenpigsfly SMENA - F-177 appears....

(Note, that P-18 is really prone to jamming, and they didn't see any jamming at all, or at least doesn't mentioned, so probably the EA-6B was really "out of line"....)


Hello, piston79!
I asked my question because there was a real "holy war" on some Russian forums between "patriots" and "westerners" regarding the circumstances of downing of Vega-31 and some aspects of it are still unclear. The description of this event from Anicic' book was translated into Russian by one man some time ago, serving as one of the few authoritative sources of information.

One of the most hotly debated aspects is the range at which F-117 was detected by P-18 radar. Previously, all Russian experts, as well as many western ones claimed that such aircraft as F-117 cannot be made truly stealthy in the meter waveband due to the nature of wave scattering - resonant scattering occurs instead of optical. Therefore, they claimed that RCS of F-117 in meter waveband should be much, much higher than in centimeter or decimeter waveband - some even claiming the figure of 1 square meter, and therefore it could be detected by P-18 at very long range. Due to this, the fact that it was only detected at the range of 23 to 35 km, according to various sources, causes a great deal of discussions. Because if we will take a figure from Anicic' book (23 km) and compare it with the well-known performance of P-18 radar, we would find that the meter-wave RCS of F-117 is exceptionally small - comparable to that in centimeter band, if not smaller.


Ehhh...

Russians are seriously underestimating the Stealth capability of the West.

The RM-217 Zvezda simulating F-117A is observable over 60km in Ashuluk, while the P-18 tuned to the its peak performance was able to find the real F-117A under 30km.

This problem is simulated exactly in SAMSIM.
ie You can kill F-117A in Ashuluk more easily than at Belgrade.
(ps: Several Hungarian SAM Firing Officers killed the Ashuluk Stealth during the '80s)
thumbsup

PS: The P-18 was working continuously (during the whole war).

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/18/14 09:35 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3969883 - 06/18/14 09:31 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357

This English translation by Vympel is very interesting (thank you for finding it, I somehow overlooked it back then!), as its starts a bit earlier than mentioned Russian one and includes an extremely important phrase ("There are no close targets in the air. There are plenty at long ranges, and different azimuths"). It seems that both the jamming and intermittment operation theories are unfounded. I really need to find this book (and learn Serbian)...


There were two targets in the air (no jamming was present), in the detection range of 3/250.
Both were F-117A, and depicted in the sim.
thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 06/18/14 09:31 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3969903 - 06/18/14 09:57 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Hpasp]  
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Lonewolf357 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Ehhh...

Russians are seriously underestimating the Stealth capability of the West.


That's to put it mildly.
Cause if we'll take a directional diagram of P-18 in elevation plane...



...we would discover that even if F-117 was in the noticeable gap at 16 degrees (distance of 23-25 km and altitude of 6-7 km give us an area between 13 and 17 degrees), but to get there it had to cross the lower 'lobe' with peak at 14 degrees undetected, and was detected 23-25 km away, its meter-wave RCS has to be no more than 0,002 square meters!

P. S.: Even if we assume that it was actually detected by the noticeable lobe at 12-14 degrees, this means that it had to avoid detection by the main lobe between 5 and 9 degrees. An object with RCS of 0,002 m^2 would have been detected between 40 and 50 km by the main lobe, which probably means that actual RCS is even smaller.

Last edited by Lonewolf357; 06/18/14 10:53 PM.
#3970794 - 06/20/14 08:30 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Dear Lonewolf, maybe you must scroll down this one too:

Me - really BAD on math....

#3970837 - 06/20/14 10:46 PM Re: Two sided coin... [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Dear Lonewolf, maybe you must scroll down this one too:

Me - really BAD on math....


Hello, piston79!
I'm really bad on math either, so I once made myself a simple .xls spreadsheet to make this kind of calculations (detection range by RCS difference). Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/6vlacpdf2dqjiv9/Range+calc+by+RCS+difference.xls





Last edited by Lonewolf357; 06/20/14 10:47 PM.
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