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#3969767 - 06/18/14 06:52 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available ***** [Re: thealx]  
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spiral flightpath is synthetic because of listed reason - there is no true beam riding flightpath calculation. also attitude of the missile doesn't changed so it looks like it's "blown by wind".

#3969835 - 06/18/14 08:30 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Cosmetic. Got it.

Comparing the Max G on the guided missiles in the GWUT to DCS's encyclopedia, just a few of them are too high, but usually not by that much. Everything apparently is supposed to be somewhere between 16G and 30G, depending on the missile. I'm going through and adjusting those that DCS uses, but I'll have to try putting real figures back in on the sensor FOV for the few I can find and see if they actually work. I have been reading highly conflicting figures on the Hellfires. I saw one table talking about +-7.5deg, and then I saw someone else's mod project of some game talking rather authoritatively about the 114K having a 70deg something or other... and not sure if that was +- or full FOV. Someone definitely mentioned that the first Hellfire was 8deg FOV on ED's forums, though.

One curious thing I just read: FLIR can be obscured by missile exhaust such that it's necessary on laser guided missiles that don't like losing the laser to fire them slightly off bore sight sometimes depending on your vertical aspect to the target and where your FLIR is located.

The KA-50 FLIR in EECH I also noticed is very low contrast and hazy. Also very slow to move for some reason.

Originally Posted By: thealx
spiral flightpath is synthetic because of listed reason - there is no true beam riding flightpath calculation. also attitude of the missile doesn't changed so it looks like it's "blown by wind".


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

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#3969925 - 06/18/14 10:43 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Crap. This gets a lot more complicated than just having to worry about radar guided missiles... which I'm not sure how Max Seeker Angle would translate. With the IR sensor and laser seeker ones, apparently there's a difference between Field of View of the sensor at a given moment and Field of Regard of the sensor while in flight if the missile spins for stability or if the seeker moves around systematically. So the seeker of the Hellfire K seems to have a +-4 degree FOV, but its effective field of regard is supposedly 30 plus or minus.

Field of Regard is time-based, though, so a fast moving target can scoot out of the seeker FOV if it moves fast enough before the guidance can change the missile's direction and not get re-acquired on subsequent passes. A Sidewinder B does 11 deg/s tracking for a total +-25 deg field of regard, but only has a tiny seeker FOV like a lot of these. I can only think that there would have to be some kind of compromise in EECH between the two. Certainly the older laser Hellfire is not a 40 degree seeker. The FOR of the Romeo is just over 100 degrees total... but not time referenced, of course. So I guess +-40 degrees continuous is appropriate, if perhaps generous, on the Romeo. I'm going to try +-20 on the K and L.

I don't see how the EO Mavericks in EECH can possibly work with only a +-1.25 seeker FOV. I suppose they *are* meant for shooting strait at stationary targets.

I have no idea what this should be set for the three Russian antitank missiles below that, though.


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

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#3969994 - 06/19/14 03:22 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Quote:
I'm going through and adjusting those that DCS uses

small advice - never copy or even compare data from other games. because it's just a games.

Quote:
The KA-50 FLIR in EECH


Ka-50 has LLLTV only.

Quote:
FLIR can be obscured by missile exhaust


it happens here, target was unlocked and gunner continued to guide missile manually.

Quote:
I don't see how the EO Mavericks in EECH can possibly work with only a +-1.25 seeker FOV

it's launched by fixwing from long distance, so maybe it will work.

#3970946 - 06/21/14 08:39 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Currently i own dcs helos addons, but i've been watching forward to this game. I would like to know what are the pros and cons of this one against dcs. I know that maybe it is not fair to compare a 1999 (modded) game to a 2010 (updated) game but BMS (also GP4) teaches that under some point of view older games are more complete products than a newer one. Does this game has clickable cockpit? Not because it is a must but rather because that means that i have to memorize a lot of keys....

#3970951 - 06/21/14 08:59 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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there are a lot of comparisons over here (discussions about flight dynamics mostly). I haven't played other games for years so I can't make comparison of current EECH and current DCS.
clickable cockpits are not available yet. I hope this feature will appears soon (for some cockpits at least).

#3970952 - 06/21/14 09:19 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Oh i forgot to ask one thing, is it possible to use the warthog throttle, ms ffb, Saitek rudder and trackir in this game? Does it recognize multiple devices?

#3970955 - 06/21/14 09:33 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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yes you can. but you will have some troubles with controls configuration - game doesn't support keys mapping, you should use external software.

#3970957 - 06/21/14 09:39 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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can you suggest a software ?

#3970960 - 06/21/14 10:15 AM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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#3971060 - 06/21/14 03:52 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Needs moar Mi-24
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On the note of controls: I may be being stupid, but I've not yet found a way to adjust control sensitivity; I know one can alter the acceleration coefficients of the cyclic, pedal and collective inputs in EECH.ini, but hasn't found a way to just dial the sensitivity down a bit. Currently, merely relaxing the muscles in my foot slightly will alter the pedal input sufficiently to move the heli's nose! Have I missed something?


<Insert witty sig block here>
#3971077 - 06/21/14 04:31 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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there is nonlinear-cyclic string that uses function (x*x + x)/2 to get cyclic value. but, nonlinear-pedals string doesn't used anywhere, looks like rudder functions was changed and this feature was left behind.

#3971086 - 06/21/14 05:19 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
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EECH is worth checking out, but it's a different beast. Don't expect a study sim. It's closer to Lock On than Blackshark. If you ever played Gunship 2000 a long time ago, EECH is reminiscent of the potential you felt was possible in helos sims down the road. No rescue missions, but most of the other stuff is present.

First off, DCS has better sound. You can even hear bullets pinging off your aircraft. EECH has some changes to improve what was already implemented, but still falls short.

DCS has datalinking and a comprehensive autopilot. Switchology galore.

Don't expect detailed damage modeling and apparent physical damage in EECH. Unless you're smoking or your rotor is gone, you won't see signs of damage outside of the systems page and what you can/can't still do with the aircraft.

DCS has more accurate weapons modeling of what's included. ED doesn't seem to include stuff unless they can be fastidious and realistic by their defined threshold... side-stepping for a moment that there is no such thing as a perfectly realistic simulation. Dissent is, let's just say, not really tolerated by them. The idea of the previously-work-in-progress and information-restricted Comanche being in a sim is anathema to ED, let alone now that it's been canceled.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=65402&page=2

I find they do not take shortcuts, which also has its bad adverse effects, too. You don't always need to put every detail in to include something and sometimes can make estimated, appropriate guesses to fill in the gaps or lower computational requirements. But it's a philosophy on their part and EECH just takes a different approach in that respect. The modifications in EECH do make a difference.

DCS has more nuanced and accurate flight models. On the bright side, EECH doesn't require the nose down so much anymore just to maintain 100kts. EECH does allow optional crosscoupling/tail-mixing, which is convenient for all tail rotor helos and appropriate for the Zulu/Viper and Comanche, but it has no tail drive power limit effects when this is active. GlovePIE and PPJoy can also improve EECH (as well as DCS), but I'm apparently alone in my use of them for helo sims for auto trimming and various other nifty things. Trust me, it makes a big difference. GlovePIE and PPJoy even improve EECH's rolling and looping in aerial combat, not to mention the more modern SAS/FBW attitude hold aspects when using a joystick or pressure stick versus a forcefeedback stick like the G940 or an expensive custom pole cyclic. I don't know anyone personally who owns the latter.

EECH has some issues with yaw modeling and finding a fine balance in its more simplified model between aerodynamic streamlining & weatherveining effect and the power of something like the Kamovs' or Comanche's ability to do a hard yaw against the flow. So right now the "pseudo-real" flight model config setting errors in favor of insufficient air effect in the yaw in flight so that a Ka-52 or Rah-66 can flat turn at moderate speeds or fly sideways at low speeds. If you lose a tail rotor, you will begin to spin sooner than accurate, but since that will eventually happen anyway in real life (remember Blackhawk Down), it's the lesser evil.

Weird, counterintuitive yaw effects are still slightly present at low speeds in EECH, but this has been improved. There is another necessary compromise between the nose pointing completely the wrong way initially when banking, having no coordinated turning at all, and having too much coordinated turning effects. The current iteration in EECH is not a bad compromise again with a simplified flight modeling code. You get just a slight amount of coordination when banking in forward flight. To be fair, DCS yaw SAS authority and stability has never been completely to my pleasing, either.

DCS has no low-observable modeling, no air to air weapons on helos, no FLIR on helos (no radar doesn't bother me), and no real dynamic campaign. So DCS missions are repetitive and stale now.

Both seem to often have FOBs and FARPs with no one around at all, but at least EECH sometimes re-equips airfields in a hurry with more SAMs and attack helos... a nice side-effect of the dynamic campaign resupply.

DCS seems to have more infantry with small arms and MANPADs deployed... and it has RPGs. There are missions with a definite human presence. They both still need more infantry, in my opinion, but most of the time EECH campaigns seem to either have none or groups them all together, and those groups don't often defend themselves. I don't know if EECH models visual or auditory detection of aircraft by infantry such that Comanche and even Viper would not be noticed by "soft targets" until closer at night than the other helos in the sim. Would be cool, though.

In EECH, wingmen often want to go off and fight even when you tell them not to, repeatedly asking for assistance. So you need to keep telling them to rejoin or return to base to get away from the enemy. The AI in general is possibly dumber in EECH, but neither sim's wingmen are particularly competent. EECH does not have "cover me" as a wingman command. Giving them a "weapons free" order seems to sort of work for that purpose, assuming they haven't run off to get some threat that briefly painted them in the distance. You have to make use of hold position quite a lot.

Back to the FMs, EECH's lift has been modified recently, so it's harder to maintain altitude than even the last version was, especially without translational lift and out of ground effect (i.e. when hovering). This is even more so when carrying a lot of fuel and ordinance in something like the Hind or when going over tall hills, which is apparently more accurate and keeps you on your toes. A fully loaded Hind apparently can't actually hover in real life, and EECH now represents that. If you don't need the fuel and ordinance, it helps to strip down prior to takeoff or get a rolling start. Some of the helos can still carry more fuel than is realistic, anyway. Finally we have a reason to use the runway! If you haven't noticed yet, I really like the EECH FM balance right now within this limited code.

Right now, Kiowa's torque reading is inaccurate, probably because it has only one engine. Just ignore that. You can get in an Osprey, but it's just the Apache from within with the same FM. Zulu/Viper also has overly-low top speed. You'll recognize approaching Vne or Vno by the vibration and rocking around. I'm not sure if the retreating blade stall and reduced authority is still modeled, but you certainly do vibrate visibly until the rotors rip apart. Watch your IAS when in a dive.

To put things in perspective, I personally would be content with the variety of EECH, the simplified attitude hold flight model of Longbow Anthology (maybe add VRS and over speed to it, and of course LB1/2 can only recognize one controller and CTDs a lot), and the weapons modeling of DCS. The switchology I can take or leave. As for graphics, obviously you've noticed DCS is where it's at if you have the hardware.

Lately I've found EECH more engaging than DCS when using PPJoy & GlovePIE to do the similar attitude command & attitude hold thing I usually do with Blackshark 2 and Comanche Gold. With the dynamic campaign, amazing ongoing mods, some tweaks to my GlovePIE scripts to make collective response more realistic and dissuade/punish ham-handednenss on the X65 sidestick (engines begin powering down otherwise! Hit those < >'s), and a few GWUT tweaks, EECH is very enjoyable in spite of the occasional CTD. There are times when it all synergizes in a way that just might be the best helo combat home experience yet.

And I'm thrilled to see an option to turn cheats and time acceleration off now in the config. This increases immersion for me and removes the temptation to game the sim, which inevitably leads to boredom. I'm tempted to also ask for some config mode to require you to be at a FARP or airfield to enter or exit a helo, but I'll stop on that front while I'm ahead ;-)

O.k., I do wish I could have stereoscopic Vision 3D in EECH the way I can with DCS, but I deal with it. Once you get used to that faux depth, it's a little tough to go back.

I have a nitpick with the seeming disappearance of the sans-radar scout Comanche from EECH for some reason and the totally wrong flight test cap in place of the radar "lamp shade" on the rotor mast of the attack version.

You have to be careful if you jump into a flying chopper in EECH, as sometimes the rotor turns off. Very bad over water, but if you have 10 seconds or more of invulnerability in the config file set, it's usually o.k. Occasionally, jumping-in and/or engaging/disengaging autopilot causes hidden pre-existing damage to suddenly present itself. I like to imagine that as random failures and wouldn't entirely call that an unwanted bug, though I don't think it's intentional.

The config file could benefit from a universal damage potential ratio, with 1.0 being the current soft and armor damage everything can absorb. Sometimes objects seem to take far too much punishment before destruction. Cutting everything down by 50% or whatever catches your fancy might be interesting without having to mess with the GWUT considering the delicate balance of comparative advantage various weapons already have.

But again, nitpicks.

EECH is definitely worth trying in spite of its quirks. Don't miss out!


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

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#3971087 - 06/21/14 05:22 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Originally Posted By: thealx
there is nonlinear-cyclic string that uses function (x*x + x)/2 to get cyclic value. but, nonlinear-pedals string doesn't used anywhere, looks like rudder functions was changed and this feature was left behind.


Nonlinear pedals does nothing right now? Hmm... I think I have something like that in some of my GlovePIE scripts. I'll have to see if it's in the main EECH one I'm using. On a related note, it's strange that in my Saitek pedals control panel there is no linearity slider.

------------

It was in some of my Comanche Gold PIE scripts that I had nonlinear stuff worked in. This is what I use:

var.nlzrots = sign(var.pedalfix)
var.nlzrotm = abs(var.pedalfix)^(1.3)
var.nlzrot = var.nlzrotm * var.nlzrots

Then I use the var.nlzrot as the rudder axis later to translate into the PPJoy axis or mix it with a rotary knob for trim on the X65 throttle. It will be nice to get some finesse around the center when crosscoupling is turned on in EECH.

Oh, EECH also requires a pedal fix for some reason. I think another sim or two also required it:

if joystick1.zrot = 0 then {
var.pedalfix = -1
else
var.pedalfix = joystick1.zrot
}

So I'll have to put the var.nlzrot in there instead of joystick1.zrot.

Last edited by Reticuli; 06/21/14 05:31 PM.

The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#3971101 - 06/21/14 06:00 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Yeah, this works nicely. Much more resolution of control around the center of the pedals. Less overcompensation and twitchiness in the yaw. This particular GlovePIE script is without the registry hack to deactivate the X65 twist. I use that hack for Falcon 4 BMS to control radar with the mouse stick and sometimes just leave implemented. Anyway, I have EECH PIEs for that reg hack, too. This is also with the pedals added to the X65 HOTAS.

PPJoy virtual stick assignments

Axis 1 (Analog 0): X Axis
Axis 2 (Analog 1): Y Axis
Axis 3 (Analog 2): Z Axis
Axis 4 (Analog 3): X Rotation
Axis 5 (Analog 4): Y Rotation
Axis 6 (Analog 5): Z Rotation
Axis 7 (Analog 6): Slider

Click to reveal..



var.tolerance = 1 - (abs(joystick1.zrotation) / 4 )
var.warning = .75 - (abs(joystick1.zrotation) / 4 )

if var.overtorque < 20 and Smooth(PPJoy1.Analog2, 100) > 0.5 then begin {
var.overtorque = var.overtorque + 1 * (Smooth(PPJoy1.Analog2, 100) - 0.5)
if var.overtorque > 20 begin {
Say "Overtorque, Engine Shutdown"
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
} end
else if var.overtorque > 0 and Smooth(PPJoy1.Analog2, 100) < 0.2 then var.overtorque = 0
}


if shift+t then begin {
var.xhold = 0
var.yhold = 0

if joystick1.zrot = 0 then {
var.pedalfix = -1
else
var.pedalfix = joystick1.zrot
}

PPJoy1.Analog5 = Joystick2.slider/2 + (var.pedalfix)

}

var.xchange = abs(Smooth(PPJoy1.Analog0, 20) - PPJoy1.Analog0)
var.ychange = abs(Smooth(PPJoy1.Analog1, 20) - PPJoy1.Analog1)

if var.xchange > var.warning or var.ychange > var.warning then begin {
BeepDefault

}

if var.xchange > var.tolerance or var.ychange > var.tolerance then begin {
Say "Handling Limits, Engine Shutdown"
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
type("<")
type(">")
}


if joystick1.zrot = 0 then {
var.pedalfix = -1
else
var.pedalfix = joystick1.zrot
}

var.nlzrots = sign(var.pedalfix)
var.nlzrotm = abs(var.pedalfix)^(1.3)
var.nlzrot = var.nlzrotm * var.nlzrots


var.yhold = EnsureRange(Joystick2.y/ 30 + var.yhold, -.75, .75)
PPJoy1.Analog1 = var.yhold + Joystick2.y
var.xhold = EnsureRange(Joystick2.x / 30 + var.xhold, -.70, .70)
PPJoy1.Analog0 = var.xhold + Joystick2.x

var.collchange = abs(Smooth(PPJoy1.Analog2, 100) - PPJoy1.Analog2)

PPJoy1.Analog2 = Smooth(Joystick2.z - abs(Smooth(Joystick2.z, 100) - Joystick2.z), 0)
PPJoy1.Analog5 = Joystick2.yrot/2 + var.nlzrot

var.bank = PPJoy1.Analog0
var.pitch = PPJoy1.Analog1
var.collective = PPJoy1.Analog2
var.yaw = PPJoy1.Analog5



Here's my current GWUT. The Comanche XM301 gun and CWIS were both too wide dispersion based on their specs... assuming I did the conversions correctly. Some of the Hellfire specs were off, and various other weapons were tweaked. Let me know if I made any typos.

https://app.box.com/s/f30f6urax1fj58qjc6vh



The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#3971385 - 06/22/14 03:24 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Originally Posted By: thealx


>>The KA-50 FLIR in EECH

Ka-50 has LLLTV only.


Sorry, meant TV. Looks like a scrim over it even in daylight. Traditional optics and FLIR seems ok, though. An attempt to make it useless at night?


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#3971390 - 06/22/14 03:37 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Quote:
An attempt to make it useless at night?

yes, also filter part of the colors. I haven't find the way to make true BW picture so this attempt can be counted like unsuccessful. if pixel shaders will be available after DX9 improvements will be finished, it will be quite easy to make correct recoloring effects for EO screens.

#3971434 - 06/22/14 05:55 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Originally Posted By: thealx
Quote:
An attempt to make it useless at night?

yes, also filter part of the colors. I haven't find the way to make true BW picture so this attempt can be counted like unsuccessful. if pixel shaders will be available after DX9 improvements will be finished, it will be quite easy to make correct recoloring effects for EO screens.


Is there a way to keep the funky color and low-light wash-out effects while making it look less like there's water or Vaseline all over the lens, or is that unavoidable with this method?

By the way, I'm very impressed that someone was able to deactivate auto-FLIR acquisition on some of the older helos like the Whiskey Cobra. I think that's what I noticed.

Not sure what I think about the inability to launch weapons like rockets without an actual target identified and locked. Seems like it should work just when locked to any point on the ground. But there's always the helmet mode.


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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X52 + Silicone Grease = JOY stick
#3971450 - 06/22/14 06:47 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
Joined: Dec 2012
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thealx Offline
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thealx  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,375
no, it uses same NIGHT_VISION texture to make white noise on the screen. changing this file will also affect low light and weather effects.

#3971494 - 06/22/14 09:31 PM Re: EECH 1.15.2 update available [Re: thealx]  
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Reticuli Online tunes
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Reticuli  Online Tunes
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,964
Dayton, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: thealx
no, it uses same NIGHT_VISION texture to make white noise on the screen. changing this file will also affect low light and weather effects.


O.k.


The term "necroposting" was invented by a person with no social memory beyond a year. People with a similar hangup are those o.k. with the internet being transient vapor.

http://www.openfuelstandard.org/2011/12/methanol-wins-open-wager.html

Saitek X65 and X52, Glide, Winx3D, and GlovePIE Profiles http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=reticuli&CatID=miscmisc

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