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#3959671 - 05/29/14 06:17 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


I think that SAMSIM is coded like this, just not sure, what you mean on...
- bisector line
- when this angle became less than 8 degrees (why 8?)
- the 4 degree limit mark (why 4?)
... please describe these in drawing, that I could understood it more clearly.


OK. I'll do a last try (I am not good in drawings I used those from Vadifon)

This is full lead method (middle). Missile goes straight to the point of impact:




Bottom of picture - a half lead. So if we got HALF instead of FULL lead, the missile must fly with the half lead instead of full one (measuring it like an angles).

From the other side, due to transmitor/receiver limitation (and overload capability of the missile IMHO), the maximum lead angle for the missile is 4 degrees.

So, let's imagine that after targeting an object, the system will calculate that point of impact will be at, say, 10 degrees off our bore-sight (SNR-Target line). So if the system worked with a FULL lead method, the missile would go straight at the point of impact ( SNR-Point of Impact line - no target maneuvers, no height/speed change). So, the angle between those 2 lines is 10 degrees.

In HALF lead mode, the missile gonna follow the HALF of the FULL lead angle (the bisector of the angle) which divided the FULL lead angle on two (on HALF), which in our case is 5 degrees (10/2).

But we got the limitation of 4 degrees lead, so initially, the missile will go with 4 degrees, and it will keep this lead UNTIL the later moment+1 when our boresight line (SNR-Target line) during it's rotation in the side of the initial SNR-Point of Impact line, decreases the initial FULL lead angle from 10 degrees to 8 degrees... At this moment the bisector (needed HALF lead angle would be equal to the max. limit, allowed by SA-2 engineers and with further decreasing of this angle, the required lead in HALF LEAD mode will be less than max. lead limitation, i.e. the missile should leave the 4 degrees line a bit earlier than in this pictures:

http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3954597/Re:_Bug_reports#Post3954597


Last edited by piston79; 05/30/14 06:45 PM.
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#3959675 - 05/29/14 06:23 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: ePap]  
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Originally Posted By: ePap


After the above it should be expected :
- easy targets to be closer to idle distance of operation and harder targets from 2-20 m with no kill/hit/kill results.
-2 or 3 or 4 m miss distance in my opinion is not necessarily a kill !Most probably is a hit,in best case .



Some say SA-8, some say SA-7...


#3959683 - 05/29/14 06:41 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: piston79]  
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ePap Offline
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Athens
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: ePap


After the above it should be expected :
- easy targets to be closer to idle distance of operation and harder targets from 2-20 m with no kill/hit/kill results.
-2 or 3 or 4 m miss distance in my opinion is not necessarily a kill !Most probably is a hit,in best case .



Some say SA-8, some say SA-7...



I say,lucky very lucky pilot ...
SA-8 ,definitely .Fits to what I wrote in my previous message...

#3959751 - 05/29/14 08:01 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


I think that SAMSIM is coded like this, just not sure, what you mean on...
- bisector line
- when this angle became less than 8 degrees (why 8?)
- the 4 degree limit mark (why 4?)
... please describe these in drawing, that I could understood it more clearly.


OK. I'll do a last try (I am not good in drawings I used those from Vadifon)

This is full lead method (middle). Missile goes straight to the point of impact:



Bottom of picture - a half lead. So if we got HALF instead of FULL lead, the missile must fly with the half lead instead of full one (measuring it like an angles).

From the other side, due to transmitor/receiver limitation (and overload capability of the missile IMHO), the maximum lead angle for the missile is 4 degrees.

So, let's imagine that after targeting an object, the system will calculate that point of impact will be at, say, 10 degrees off our bore-sight (SNR-Target line). So if the system worked with a FULL lead method, the missile would go straight at the point of impact ( SNR-Point of Impact line - no target maneuvers, no height/speed change). So, the angle between those 2 lines is 10 degrees.

In HALF lead mode, the missile gonna follow the HALF of the FULL lead angle (the bisector of the angle) which divided the FULL lead angle on two (on HALF), which in our case is 5 degrees (10/2).


Bisector of angle is true only before missile launch. As the missile is flying towards the target, this half-lead point is moving towards the target. (Its not static!)
If you calculate this movement, you will got the path depicted by the sim.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3960344 - 05/30/14 07:12 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Bisector of angle is true only before missile launch. As the missile is flying towards the target, this half-lead point is moving towards the target. (Its not static!)
If you calculate this movement, you will got the path depicted by the sim.


I don't get it - the half-lead point is the point of impact or what?
It must be the opposite - target and missile are going toward the final point of impact...

See here (middle and bottom diagrams):




In half-lead Method Po (missile o - "Racketa o") and Co (target o - "tzel o"). At moment 0 missile goes with angle (gamma? - cannot see well)/2, and it points at point of impact 0 ("vstrecha 0"). But as this is not the true point (because of the limitation in lead), and at next moment (say moment 2) it goes to the new point of impact, which is closer to the real (final) one, etc.... (Note moment 4, when it is shown what would happen with trajectory of the missile if target do a 180 degrees turn....)

Last edited by piston79; 05/31/14 04:58 AM.
#3960385 - 05/30/14 08:19 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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Hi everyone!

Question is version 928.2 I noticed in training in Greece shooting AH-64 Apache .

Fixed bug 10 meters high, 25 meters now , very happy!

Why no target on screen, I do not even know on the TV screen also does not have a purpose and I do not even know where to look on the radar also is not only reflected from the Earth.

Next thing I noticed strange reflections from the ground changes as it may be that appears and disappears question how this could be.

It is not clear how this could be, if you look closely on the radar screen , I noticed it , maybe it is a feature not even know.

#3960630 - 05/31/14 08:32 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: ePap]  
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Athens
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: max2012

Hi everyone!

Question is version 928.2 I noticed in training in Greece shooting AH-64 Apache .

Fixed bug 10 meters high, 25 meters now , very happy!

Why no target on screen, I do not even know on the TV screen also does not have a purpose and I do not even know where to look on the radar also is not only reflected from the Earth.

Next thing I noticed strange reflections from the ground changes as it may be that appears and disappears question how this could be.

It is not clear how this could be, if you look closely on the radar screen , I noticed it , maybe it is a feature not even know.


Which site(position) you choose?
How far from OSA AK you put your waypoints of AH-64 ?
With out these you cannot say if the target is visible in the PPI (screen).

Also other factors could produce clutters in screen.Could be random generation of clouds...Adjust your frequency for better video ... smile2

PS: how you can shoot in training scenario ?

#3960638 - 05/31/14 09:25 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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Over the sea can not see anything like this could be on the TV screen.

At the bottom I choose the route over the Sea.

On the TV screen can be seen that all the dark fragment and target present.

On the radar screen, too, there's nothing but the reflection of the Earth.

How to adjust the frequency of the TV screen?, The documentation on this is not the word.

#3960642 - 05/31/14 09:41 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: max2012]  
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Athens
Originally Posted By: max2012

Over the sea can not see anything like this could be on the TV screen.

At the bottom I choose the route over the Sea.

On the TV screen can be seen that all the dark fragment and target present.

On the radar screen, too, there's nothing but the reflection of the Earth.

How to adjust the frequency of the TV screen?, The documentation on this is not the word.


Beware of the altitude of your OSA site .
If it's high (let's say ~ 250 m) and you put your waypoints or your plane is close to OSA (let's say 10 km), you will never see on radar screen PPI the target because the the radiation lobe pattern of TAR cannot see it (0-4 deg +/- 1 deg).

For me the OSA AK ,in that specific area works fine.

PS:I said the TAR frequency has to be adjusted.This is not implemented yet.Hope Hpasp to include it in next patches .... smile2

#3960649 - 05/31/14 10:16 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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MAX2012, please, in future, ALWAYS do a PRINTSCREEN and/or VIDEO and include it in the message!

Thanks!

#3960665 - 05/31/14 11:21 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: piston79]  
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Well, I agree!

#4007234 - 09/09/14 02:03 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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So I suppose the AS-3 is also lost.

There is one thing to think of - the target is flying and even if it does not manoeuvre and flies directly to the RPC (P=0), then it quite quickly slips out of the beam (1,4 or 0,7 degrees wide) when there is no AS mode.

I would like to test it with a target with P=0 flying at low speed (simulation in Hungary) to see how long it takes to lighten the PROLONG light (and for KRO signal to appear).

In your test, what was target parameters? Was there any noticeable delay between AS-RPC switching off and PROLONG light?


PS: Android port of SAMSIM is something I dream of yep Nowadays the resolution of display is not a problem, but we have a let's say personal problem. Simply said who will do it....
And imagine clicking the switches with your finger using the touch screen. A strong motivoation for a new notebook computer with a touch screen thumbsup

#4007239 - 09/09/14 02:12 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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Apparently I wll not test it in Hungary, since I will be unable to launch the missile sigh

So I will try it in Ashuluk with an LA-17 flying straight on.

#4007248 - 09/09/14 02:40 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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I Used Tallin scenario....

#4007256 - 09/09/14 02:48 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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So now I understand why there is immediate PROLONG after AS off in your case - the Mach 3 SR-71 jumps out of the static beam from the RPC virtualy immediately. Even if it is still pointing in the right direction - you have to think in 3D - beam directs from the ground level up under some angle (which is constantly increasing as the target is coming close to the RPC). By the way, look what elevation marker does when you track such a high speed closing target.

#4007268 - 09/09/14 03:14 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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There is always PROLONG, no matter of target smile
PROLONG is used when target goes thru rejection filter speed zone (i.e. <50 m/s radial speed).

Also suitable scenario is against both F-14's in Libya....

#4007335 - 09/09/14 04:54 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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Now you led me to the interesting idea - PROLONG is activated whenever the target is lost (either velocity filter, or blocked line of sight or something) and it should mean that CVK is moving the RPC according to the computed target's track because the RPC can't see the target.

So I do not understand the PROLONG when AS-RPC is manually switched off and thus CVK can not control position of RPC. In this situation in my opinion the PROLONG should not be activated....

#4007691 - 09/10/14 11:03 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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I just tried the following - locked target in velocity (AS-3), measured distance and enabled AS-RPC (usual procedure). No missile launched (button lights indicate readiness for launch). I disabled AS-RPC, AS-3 is in enabled state so I suppose RPC is tracking the target (with exception of range computation from RPC position). PROLONG was immediately activated. But missile can be launched and succesfully intercept the target as expected since the target was continuously illuminated by RPC.

What is the correct meaning of PROLONG? It looks like it indicate lack of any tracking information. So it seems that lack of range information from CVK is sufficient for PROLONG to activate even the target is still tracked by RPC and can be fired upon.

Without range measurement and AS-RPC activation missile can not be launched (DO STARTA mode) as expected, because the system does not know which flight program to choose.

#4008611 - 09/12/14 04:38 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I just tried the following - locked target in velocity (AS-3), measured distance and enabled AS-RPC (usual procedure). No missile launched (button lights indicate readiness for launch). I disabled AS-RPC, AS-3 is in enabled state so..........


I think all after AS-RPC is off AS-3 is off also.....

#4009141 - 09/13/14 05:57 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
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I tried it in SAMSIM and AS-3 stayed on and after AS-RPC off I was able to launch a missile and succesfully intercepted the target.... But question to Hpasp is if this is a correct behavior. It seems so, because CVK already has some range info, but I do not know if CVK really permits a launch when AS-RPC is disabled (edit - I mean a real CVK in a real Vega).

Last edited by Alien_MasterMynd; 09/13/14 08:44 AM.
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