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#3959271 - 05/28/14 10:02 PM Modern Jet BFM Tactics  
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Hey guys, I just made a video demonstrating BFM tactics, specifically angles tactics with a one-circle fight. In a one-circle fight, both fighters turn in a nose-nose direction after the merge. The key to winning the one circle fight is to minimize your turn radius, not to maximize your turn rate. By flying a smaller turn radius, you gain turning space on the inside of your opponent's turning circle, and can use that turning space to reverse for an angular advantage. One caution against an enemy that might employ energy tactics is to maintain at least vertical maneuvering speed, the minimum speed you'll need to pull vertical and get a snapshot against a bandit that tries to zoom climb.

My video is here, please let me know if you have any comments or questions. Also any recommendations for follow-up videos?


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#3959838 - 05/29/14 10:49 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Originally Posted By: INTJ_Mastermind
The key to winning the one circle fight is to minimize your turn radius, not to maximize your turn rate.


Would you elaborate on this part? what's the difference between minimizing turn radius and maximizing turn rate?

#3960715 - 05/31/14 03:03 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Radius is the line from the centre of a circle to the edge - so if you minimise the radius that means you are turning a smaller circle (the radius is shorter in length).

Turn rate is how fast the nose is going around the circumference of that circle (normally in degrees per second)


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#3960769 - 05/31/14 05:04 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Great video and an excellent understanding of fight geometry.

One question I do have: in forcing a 1-circle fight it appears that you have to give up the lead turn as one of the tools in your bag. In the first part, you start a lead turn only to reverse it and then go into the vertical, and in the second part you dispense with the lead turn altogether.

If I were flying the F-15 or M2000 (both of which are better at energy than angles) I know I would be pushing for a 2-circle fight, so if I was head on with a flanker I would lead turn into him to take his turning room and make a two circle fight more likely. Likewise, If I see the flanker turn first I could force a 2 circle fight (although if the flanker lead turns first he has a better shot at winning).

Since the lead turn is the most important move at the merge (and can determine the outcome of the fight more than anything else), at what point is it worth sacrificing the initiative the lead turn gives you in order to force a one circle fight?


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The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#3960790 - 05/31/14 06:01 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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HomeFries, that's correct, in a one-circle fight you don't lead turn the bandit.

Lead turn by definition requires flight-path offset and a turn towards the bandit. If you lead turn away from the bandit in order to set up a one-circle fight, you'll just be flying out in front of him, see below...



You do give up the advantage of a lead turn, but you can also take away the bandit's lead turn. Remember that a lead turn benifits from offset. The greater the horizontal offset (up to 1 turn circle diameter), the more beneficial a lead turn becomes, and the earlier you should start the lead turn. So by minimizing flight path offset at the merge, the player who is forcing a one circle fight takes away his opponent's lead turn advantage.

In that first video, I start by offsetting right simply to avoid a head-on snap shot, then reverse left to remove the flight path seperation, followed by a reversal right once the bandit commits to turning into me to set up the one-circle geometry.

Also, forgot to mention, but you see how in the first fight, the F-15 attempts to go vertical at the second merge? That underscores the importance of at least maintaining vertical maneuvering speed in the angles fight. This allows you to get your guns on the bandit if he tries to zoom climb. You will be at a lower energy state than the bandit, but that doesn't matter, since you're not in a zoom climbing contest, all you need to do is be able to pull within guns range with appropriate lead.

Note: above image copied from SimHQ article here:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_041a.html

#3960808 - 05/31/14 06:36 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Great point about the horizontal offset. Thanks for the excellent reply.
tomcat


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#3961274 - 06/01/14 09:14 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Originally Posted By: INTJ_Mastermind
HomeFries, that's correct, in a one-circle fight you don't lead turn the bandit.

Lead turn by definition requires flight-path offset and a turn towards the bandit. If you lead turn away from the bandit in order to set up a one-circle fight, you'll just be flying out in front of him, see below...


No a properly executed lead turn places you on the enemys 6, it is only when you do the lead turn at the wrong time(either too early or too late) that your aircraft winds up losing this critical phase of the fight. So too early and you're turning in front of the bandit, to late and the bandit has already turned behind you and is following you as you turn. Options at the pass are the Vertical and the horizontal Lead turn, both have advantages and disadvantages for example going vertical can be done if you are flying well above corner speed where as a lower speed the horizontal lead turn is the better option. The lower of your nose in the video is good if you are flying very slow during the pass and also full burner is the other thing to remember. The F-15 with its PFM in DCS you actually have to reduce burner sometimes as it accelerates in such a turn compared to the F-16 in BMS where it bleeds speed much quicker so even in full afterburner in F-16s the speed bleeds quicker. For vertical fighting you also have to remember in a multi bandit fight going vertical following another aircraft 1 bleeds your speed and 2 makes you an easy target for the other bad guys but if you have the energy it can take you above the furball which gives you time in some cases to put some distance away from the enemy and build up energy.




Last edited by SUBS_17; 06/01/14 09:16 PM.


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#3961278 - 06/01/14 09:25 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Another observation in both videos you turned right, then left then right again and this prevented you from doing a proper lead turn in both passes. I know that you are trying to avoid a head on straff but if the other guy lead turned then he would be already on your 6 after the pass. So a faster lead turn is just turn at the right time and follow it through and your guns would be firing in half the time it took.



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#3961312 - 06/01/14 11:05 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
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Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
No a properly executed lead turn places you on the enemys 6


... when the enemy is asleep, doesn't know you're there, can't turn, or otherwise can't take away your offset. This is a basic misunderstanding of the subject matter.

The OP is showing something very simple. If he was showing a 2-circle fight, then lead turns may become appropriate - but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why the bandit can't lead turn you at the same time. They are not appropriate in a 1-circle fight since you're trying to take away turning room at the pass, and any attempt at a lead turn effectively ends up being a no-respect lead turn, aka a freebie.

How much offset/turning room do you need a lead turn (ideally) if you have the better turning aircraft? One turn diameter. That's a lot, and I bet most virtual fighter pilots wouldn't even know how to get to that spot, or why they shouldn't even try it depending on what the bandit's doing.


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#3961371 - 06/02/14 03:02 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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It takes practice to find that right spot I find and you certainly know when you have made a mistake with LEAD Turns. It'll be interesting to see how the SU27 PFM compares to the SFM. I found the F-15Cs PFM quite different when dogfighting compared to the SFM you can do a lot more with the PFM.



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#3961519 - 06/02/14 01:56 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Who's flying the Eagle? It seems like he is merging with way too much speed? Otherwise I dont know why you are ending up inside his turn circle so easily, unless the Flanker performs much better vs the F-15 than I thought.

If I were you I wouldnt throw away the vertical turning room you have against him, I'd make it a bit more of an oblique one circle, initially going up a bit. Uses that turning room that you have below him, gives you some potential energy and keeps your circle small.


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#3961528 - 06/02/14 02:28 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Tomcat84]  
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It looks like AI, and with that sort of energy advantage at the merge he doesn't need to buy the one-circle, and there's nothing the flanker can do about it.

IMHO that's beside the point though - the video is just a demo of a one-circle fight.

Originally Posted By: Tomcat84
Who's flying the Eagle? It seems like he is merging with way too much speed? Otherwise I dont know why you are ending up inside his turn circle so easily, unless the Flanker performs much better vs the F-15 than I thought.

If I were you I wouldnt throw away the vertical turning room you have against him, I'd make it a bit more of an oblique one circle, initially going up a bit. Uses that turning room that you have below him, gives you some potential energy and keeps your circle small.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/02/14 02:29 PM.

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#3961690 - 06/02/14 07:58 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Yeah that's fine, I just would caution an inexperienced viewer that this is not the typical one circle fight result you should expect (that is, to be winning so quickly, seeing results so fast. It usually takes a lot more smaller mistakes etc to give a result, especially if the airframes are not dissimilar or very closely matched)


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#3961749 - 06/02/14 10:25 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Yeah its still a good example of a one circle, most AI tend to turn late the only bad AI to fight is the P51/prop fighters. Its a whole different ball game with them. The mirage AI is still a challenge though as it can turn on a dime and is a smaller target compared to an F-15 or Flanker. I'd like ED to tweak the AI to have a higher skill in the dogfights because they can be easy to nail in dogfights when fighting jets.



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#3961787 - 06/02/14 11:52 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Tomcat84]  
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I would caution the inexperienced viewer that both outcomes are quite possible, irrespective of pilots or airframes. It simply depends. I've defeated people far better than I within 45 sec simply because they lost sight.

That's in a fair gunzo fight - in other words, that's all academic. In a more realistic scenario, you can definitely expect much shorter dogfights since one combatant will usually come in unnoticed, or will be noticed too late.

Originally Posted By: Tomcat84
Yeah that's fine, I just would caution an inexperienced viewer that this is not the typical one circle fight result you should expect (that is, to be winning so quickly, seeing results so fast. It usually takes a lot more smaller mistakes etc to give a result, especially if the airframes are not dissimilar or very closely matched)

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/04/14 02:18 AM.

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#3962299 - 06/03/14 09:52 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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Yep and its even more fun when there is more than one bad guy that you're dogfighting. It only takes a simple overshoot to reverse things, the hunter becomes the hunted lol.

xwing




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#3968039 - 06/15/14 06:35 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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The opening video dogfight was good but I don't quite agree with the idea that you "only need to minimize turn radius".

You can't be just "hovering" your su-27 around the bandit, it's not an F-35 or harrier LOL.
biggrin

Obviously YOU were flying at corner speed in su-27, weren't you?

It is not possible to fight and fly effectively (energy fighting) with small radius and small turn rate. Especially in guns only. Try to imagine guns only, su-27 below corner speed and staying below corner speed, vs eagle at corner speed.

With missiles you can stall after turn in su-27, point the nose momentarily, and shoot missile. Then su-27 will stall. Because it's impossible to maintain enough G-force at slow speed. Or rather, flying at slow speed, you risk eventually stalling the aircraft, this is the main cause for stalling isn't it?







By definition, corner speed affords you the quickest turn rate and tightest turn radius at the same speed

corner speed affords you maximum G-allowed, at the minimum required speed.

corner speed therefore, affords you maximum turn rate together with the minimal radius for sustained turning (small instantenous turns can be made for short durations at the expense of pilot consciousness and airframe durability, these turns are by definition instantenous turns and not sustained turns)

Stall fighting and stall turns are also not covered under the corner speed manouvering definition.

#3968358 - 06/15/14 10:49 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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I find that in a sustained turn that you need to unload after the turn in the F-15C PFM in order to regain manouverability if you bleed to much speed in the turn. In some cases if you are at just the right speed the F-15 will just continue to turn at corner speed (550kts 6-7g) and it just keeps on going at low level. It will be interesting to see the SU27 PFM in dogfights because the aircraft has a very good turn rate and will be a challenge in mp.



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#3968394 - 06/16/14 12:43 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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The minimum corner for an F-15C is 650kph, or 350KTS. Not 550kph.

As for the one-circle, it is indeed best represented by doing a minimum radius turn. The video makes the point, though it is very light on instructional information.

Quote:
It is not possible to fight and fly effectively (energy fighting) with small radius and small turn rate. Especially in guns only. Try to imagine guns only, su-27 below corner speed and staying below corner speed, vs eagle at corner speed.


Why would you make up some scenario that doesn't apply? Actually yes, you WANT to be slower than the other guy to pull him into a one-circle. Why? Because you're much more likely to win it. The corner speed is just a speed band that gives you one thing or other. There's absolutely no rule that says you must be at corner to win.

Rather, it depends. And you're trying to represent 'it depends' as some sort of practical counter to the demonstration.


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#3968834 - 06/16/14 09:18 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
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well yea... flying slow allows you initially to maintain 3-9 line...

but the bandit isn't cooked yet...

You must close into gun parameters.

You must pull lead pursuit to kill him with gun.

The eagle doesn't need to kill the su-27 IN THE FIRST TURN. Eagle can keep turning, and turning and turning. Gaining angles, losing angles etc...

Flying slow has it's disadvantages, you are low-E aircraft at that point. This is actually what the original poster said. HE SAID that "it's good to have enough speed to make a snapshot in case enemy goes vertical"

What if your snapshot misses? Then you're stalling, or at the very least low-E state.

What prevents eagle from using energy tactics and the vertical?


Ironically grayghost, IT WAS YOU who already answered with the alternative scenario to the dogfight. biggrin

Eagle should not have accepted the one circle fight with his own big energy advantage... Eagle is too fast to make any kind of tight turns at that speed it looked like.

By using energy fighting and patience, I suspect eagle would have had more chances of killing su-27 instead of dying.

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