Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3959271 - 05/28/14 10:02 PM Modern Jet BFM Tactics  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4
INTJ_Mastermind Offline
Junior Member
INTJ_Mastermind  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4
Hey guys, I just made a video demonstrating BFM tactics, specifically angles tactics with a one-circle fight. In a one-circle fight, both fighters turn in a nose-nose direction after the merge. The key to winning the one circle fight is to minimize your turn radius, not to maximize your turn rate. By flying a smaller turn radius, you gain turning space on the inside of your opponent's turning circle, and can use that turning space to reverse for an angular advantage. One caution against an enemy that might employ energy tactics is to maintain at least vertical maneuvering speed, the minimum speed you'll need to pull vertical and get a snapshot against a bandit that tries to zoom climb.

My video is here, please let me know if you have any comments or questions. Also any recommendations for follow-up videos?


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3959838 - 05/29/14 10:49 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 467
nadal Offline
Member
nadal  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 467
Originally Posted By: INTJ_Mastermind
The key to winning the one circle fight is to minimize your turn radius, not to maximize your turn rate.


Would you elaborate on this part? what's the difference between minimizing turn radius and maximizing turn rate?

#3960715 - 05/31/14 03:03 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster Offline
Member
MigBuster  Offline
Member

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
UK
Radius is the line from the centre of a circle to the edge - so if you minimise the radius that means you are turning a smaller circle (the radius is shorter in length).

Turn rate is how fast the nose is going around the circumference of that circle (normally in degrees per second)


'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
#3960769 - 05/31/14 05:04 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,468
HomeFries Offline
Air Dominance Project
HomeFries  Offline
Air Dominance Project
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,468
Great video and an excellent understanding of fight geometry.

One question I do have: in forcing a 1-circle fight it appears that you have to give up the lead turn as one of the tools in your bag. In the first part, you start a lead turn only to reverse it and then go into the vertical, and in the second part you dispense with the lead turn altogether.

If I were flying the F-15 or M2000 (both of which are better at energy than angles) I know I would be pushing for a 2-circle fight, so if I was head on with a flanker I would lead turn into him to take his turning room and make a two circle fight more likely. Likewise, If I see the flanker turn first I could force a 2 circle fight (although if the flanker lead turns first he has a better shot at winning).

Since the lead turn is the most important move at the merge (and can determine the outcome of the fight more than anything else), at what point is it worth sacrificing the initiative the lead turn gives you in order to force a one circle fight?


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#3960790 - 05/31/14 06:01 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4
INTJ_Mastermind Offline
Junior Member
INTJ_Mastermind  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 4
HomeFries, that's correct, in a one-circle fight you don't lead turn the bandit.

Lead turn by definition requires flight-path offset and a turn towards the bandit. If you lead turn away from the bandit in order to set up a one-circle fight, you'll just be flying out in front of him, see below...



You do give up the advantage of a lead turn, but you can also take away the bandit's lead turn. Remember that a lead turn benifits from offset. The greater the horizontal offset (up to 1 turn circle diameter), the more beneficial a lead turn becomes, and the earlier you should start the lead turn. So by minimizing flight path offset at the merge, the player who is forcing a one circle fight takes away his opponent's lead turn advantage.

In that first video, I start by offsetting right simply to avoid a head-on snap shot, then reverse left to remove the flight path seperation, followed by a reversal right once the bandit commits to turning into me to set up the one-circle geometry.

Also, forgot to mention, but you see how in the first fight, the F-15 attempts to go vertical at the second merge? That underscores the importance of at least maintaining vertical maneuvering speed in the angles fight. This allows you to get your guns on the bandit if he tries to zoom climb. You will be at a lower energy state than the bandit, but that doesn't matter, since you're not in a zoom climbing contest, all you need to do is be able to pull within guns range with appropriate lead.

Note: above image copied from SimHQ article here:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_041a.html

#3960808 - 05/31/14 06:36 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,468
HomeFries Offline
Air Dominance Project
HomeFries  Offline
Air Dominance Project
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,468
Great point about the horizontal offset. Thanks for the excellent reply.
tomcat


-Home Fries

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
- Robert A. Heinlein

The average naval aviator, despite the sometimes swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy, and caring. These feelings just don't involve anyone else.

#3961274 - 06/01/14 09:14 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Originally Posted By: INTJ_Mastermind
HomeFries, that's correct, in a one-circle fight you don't lead turn the bandit.

Lead turn by definition requires flight-path offset and a turn towards the bandit. If you lead turn away from the bandit in order to set up a one-circle fight, you'll just be flying out in front of him, see below...


No a properly executed lead turn places you on the enemys 6, it is only when you do the lead turn at the wrong time(either too early or too late) that your aircraft winds up losing this critical phase of the fight. So too early and you're turning in front of the bandit, to late and the bandit has already turned behind you and is following you as you turn. Options at the pass are the Vertical and the horizontal Lead turn, both have advantages and disadvantages for example going vertical can be done if you are flying well above corner speed where as a lower speed the horizontal lead turn is the better option. The lower of your nose in the video is good if you are flying very slow during the pass and also full burner is the other thing to remember. The F-15 with its PFM in DCS you actually have to reduce burner sometimes as it accelerates in such a turn compared to the F-16 in BMS where it bleeds speed much quicker so even in full afterburner in F-16s the speed bleeds quicker. For vertical fighting you also have to remember in a multi bandit fight going vertical following another aircraft 1 bleeds your speed and 2 makes you an easy target for the other bad guys but if you have the energy it can take you above the furball which gives you time in some cases to put some distance away from the enemy and build up energy.




Last edited by SUBS_17; 06/01/14 09:16 PM.


"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3961278 - 06/01/14 09:25 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Another observation in both videos you turned right, then left then right again and this prevented you from doing a proper lead turn in both passes. I know that you are trying to avoid a head on straff but if the other guy lead turned then he would be already on your 6 after the pass. So a faster lead turn is just turn at the right time and follow it through and your guns would be firing in half the time it took.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3961312 - 06/01/14 11:05 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
No a properly executed lead turn places you on the enemys 6


... when the enemy is asleep, doesn't know you're there, can't turn, or otherwise can't take away your offset. This is a basic misunderstanding of the subject matter.

The OP is showing something very simple. If he was showing a 2-circle fight, then lead turns may become appropriate - but there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why the bandit can't lead turn you at the same time. They are not appropriate in a 1-circle fight since you're trying to take away turning room at the pass, and any attempt at a lead turn effectively ends up being a no-respect lead turn, aka a freebie.

How much offset/turning room do you need a lead turn (ideally) if you have the better turning aircraft? One turn diameter. That's a lot, and I bet most virtual fighter pilots wouldn't even know how to get to that spot, or why they shouldn't even try it depending on what the bandit's doing.


--
44th VFW
#3961371 - 06/02/14 03:02 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
It takes practice to find that right spot I find and you certainly know when you have made a mistake with LEAD Turns. It'll be interesting to see how the SU27 PFM compares to the SFM. I found the F-15Cs PFM quite different when dogfighting compared to the SFM you can do a lot more with the PFM.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3961519 - 06/02/14 01:56 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,899
Tomcat84 Offline
Member
Tomcat84  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,899
Who's flying the Eagle? It seems like he is merging with way too much speed? Otherwise I dont know why you are ending up inside his turn circle so easily, unless the Flanker performs much better vs the F-15 than I thought.

If I were you I wouldnt throw away the vertical turning room you have against him, I'd make it a bit more of an oblique one circle, initially going up a bit. Uses that turning room that you have below him, gives you some potential energy and keeps your circle small.


Intel Core i5-4660K @ 4.3 ghz
8 GB (2 x 4GB) DDR 3
EVGA GeForce GTX 770 SC
#3961528 - 06/02/14 02:28 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Tomcat84]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
It looks like AI, and with that sort of energy advantage at the merge he doesn't need to buy the one-circle, and there's nothing the flanker can do about it.

IMHO that's beside the point though - the video is just a demo of a one-circle fight.

Originally Posted By: Tomcat84
Who's flying the Eagle? It seems like he is merging with way too much speed? Otherwise I dont know why you are ending up inside his turn circle so easily, unless the Flanker performs much better vs the F-15 than I thought.

If I were you I wouldnt throw away the vertical turning room you have against him, I'd make it a bit more of an oblique one circle, initially going up a bit. Uses that turning room that you have below him, gives you some potential energy and keeps your circle small.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/02/14 02:29 PM.

--
44th VFW
#3961690 - 06/02/14 07:58 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,899
Tomcat84 Offline
Member
Tomcat84  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,899
Yeah that's fine, I just would caution an inexperienced viewer that this is not the typical one circle fight result you should expect (that is, to be winning so quickly, seeing results so fast. It usually takes a lot more smaller mistakes etc to give a result, especially if the airframes are not dissimilar or very closely matched)


Intel Core i5-4660K @ 4.3 ghz
8 GB (2 x 4GB) DDR 3
EVGA GeForce GTX 770 SC
#3961749 - 06/02/14 10:25 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Yeah its still a good example of a one circle, most AI tend to turn late the only bad AI to fight is the P51/prop fighters. Its a whole different ball game with them. The mirage AI is still a challenge though as it can turn on a dime and is a smaller target compared to an F-15 or Flanker. I'd like ED to tweak the AI to have a higher skill in the dogfights because they can be easy to nail in dogfights when fighting jets.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3961787 - 06/02/14 11:52 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Tomcat84]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
I would caution the inexperienced viewer that both outcomes are quite possible, irrespective of pilots or airframes. It simply depends. I've defeated people far better than I within 45 sec simply because they lost sight.

That's in a fair gunzo fight - in other words, that's all academic. In a more realistic scenario, you can definitely expect much shorter dogfights since one combatant will usually come in unnoticed, or will be noticed too late.

Originally Posted By: Tomcat84
Yeah that's fine, I just would caution an inexperienced viewer that this is not the typical one circle fight result you should expect (that is, to be winning so quickly, seeing results so fast. It usually takes a lot more smaller mistakes etc to give a result, especially if the airframes are not dissimilar or very closely matched)

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/04/14 02:18 AM.

--
44th VFW
#3962299 - 06/03/14 09:52 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Yep and its even more fun when there is more than one bad guy that you're dogfighting. It only takes a simple overshoot to reverse things, the hunter becomes the hunted lol.

xwing




"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3968039 - 06/15/14 06:35 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44
Laurwin Offline
Junior Member
Laurwin  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44
The opening video dogfight was good but I don't quite agree with the idea that you "only need to minimize turn radius".

You can't be just "hovering" your su-27 around the bandit, it's not an F-35 or harrier LOL.
biggrin

Obviously YOU were flying at corner speed in su-27, weren't you?

It is not possible to fight and fly effectively (energy fighting) with small radius and small turn rate. Especially in guns only. Try to imagine guns only, su-27 below corner speed and staying below corner speed, vs eagle at corner speed.

With missiles you can stall after turn in su-27, point the nose momentarily, and shoot missile. Then su-27 will stall. Because it's impossible to maintain enough G-force at slow speed. Or rather, flying at slow speed, you risk eventually stalling the aircraft, this is the main cause for stalling isn't it?







By definition, corner speed affords you the quickest turn rate and tightest turn radius at the same speed

corner speed affords you maximum G-allowed, at the minimum required speed.

corner speed therefore, affords you maximum turn rate together with the minimal radius for sustained turning (small instantenous turns can be made for short durations at the expense of pilot consciousness and airframe durability, these turns are by definition instantenous turns and not sustained turns)

Stall fighting and stall turns are also not covered under the corner speed manouvering definition.

#3968358 - 06/15/14 10:49 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
I find that in a sustained turn that you need to unload after the turn in the F-15C PFM in order to regain manouverability if you bleed to much speed in the turn. In some cases if you are at just the right speed the F-15 will just continue to turn at corner speed (550kts 6-7g) and it just keeps on going at low level. It will be interesting to see the SU27 PFM in dogfights because the aircraft has a very good turn rate and will be a challenge in mp.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3968394 - 06/16/14 12:43 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
The minimum corner for an F-15C is 650kph, or 350KTS. Not 550kph.

As for the one-circle, it is indeed best represented by doing a minimum radius turn. The video makes the point, though it is very light on instructional information.

Quote:
It is not possible to fight and fly effectively (energy fighting) with small radius and small turn rate. Especially in guns only. Try to imagine guns only, su-27 below corner speed and staying below corner speed, vs eagle at corner speed.


Why would you make up some scenario that doesn't apply? Actually yes, you WANT to be slower than the other guy to pull him into a one-circle. Why? Because you're much more likely to win it. The corner speed is just a speed band that gives you one thing or other. There's absolutely no rule that says you must be at corner to win.

Rather, it depends. And you're trying to represent 'it depends' as some sort of practical counter to the demonstration.


--
44th VFW
#3968834 - 06/16/14 09:18 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44
Laurwin Offline
Junior Member
Laurwin  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44
well yea... flying slow allows you initially to maintain 3-9 line...

but the bandit isn't cooked yet...

You must close into gun parameters.

You must pull lead pursuit to kill him with gun.

The eagle doesn't need to kill the su-27 IN THE FIRST TURN. Eagle can keep turning, and turning and turning. Gaining angles, losing angles etc...

Flying slow has it's disadvantages, you are low-E aircraft at that point. This is actually what the original poster said. HE SAID that "it's good to have enough speed to make a snapshot in case enemy goes vertical"

What if your snapshot misses? Then you're stalling, or at the very least low-E state.

What prevents eagle from using energy tactics and the vertical?


Ironically grayghost, IT WAS YOU who already answered with the alternative scenario to the dogfight. biggrin

Eagle should not have accepted the one circle fight with his own big energy advantage... Eagle is too fast to make any kind of tight turns at that speed it looked like.

By using energy fighting and patience, I suspect eagle would have had more chances of killing su-27 instead of dying.

#3968866 - 06/16/14 10:32 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Laurwin]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
Originally Posted By: Laurwin
well yea... flying slow allows you initially to maintain 3-9 line...

but the bandit isn't cooked yet...


You don't know that.

Quote:
You must close into gun parameters.


In a 1-circle, you will be in range.

Quote:
You must pull lead pursuit to kill him with gun.


In a 1-circle, you will at least get a snapshot opportunity if done right.

Quote:
The eagle doesn't need to kill the su-27 IN THE FIRST TURN. Eagle can keep turning, and turning and turning. Gaining angles, losing angles etc...


So can a flanker. I don't get why you're stuck on an airframe.

Quote:
Flying slow has it's disadvantages, you are low-E aircraft at that point. This is actually what the original poster said. HE SAID that "it's good to have enough speed to make a snapshot in case enemy goes vertical"


Yeah, it's 'good'. And? smile Who says that F-15 isn't going to buy the 1-circle wholesale?

Quote:
What if your snapshot misses? Then you're stalling, or at the very least low-E state.


Why would I be stalling? And I might be ok with the low E state. He might be at a low E state too. Or maybe I'm not at a low E state because I saw I'm winning the 1-circle so I don't need to pull as hard any longer.

Quote:
What prevents eagle from using energy tactics and the vertical?


What prevents the flanker from doing so?

Quote:
Ironically grayghost, IT WAS YOU who already answered with the alternative scenario to the dogfight. biggrin

Eagle should not have accepted the one circle fight with his own big energy advantage... Eagle is too fast to make any kind of tight turns at that speed it looked like.

By using energy fighting and patience, I suspect eagle would have had more chances of killing su-27 instead of dying.


I can start with a 1-circle and keep a far superior pilot to myself very occupied with what I'm doing inside his turn circle. And what if I have a wingman?

A demonstration of a one-circle fight is a demonstration of a one-circle fight smile It's a great starting point to understand it.

The rest depends
.


--
44th VFW
#3968933 - 06/17/14 12:57 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
The minimum corner for an F-15C is 650kph, or 350KTS. Not 550kph.



F-15C corner speed is 440kts - 550kts and I'm finding good turns at the lower speed of 400-450kts.(not kms lol, I don't use metric with the Eagle.) As strange as it might sound lol and the Eagle has some excellent vertical climb incomparison to the SFM version.
Quote:

A demonstration of a one-circle fight is a demonstration of a one-circle fight smile It's a great starting point to understand it.


That's very true and I now do not see the point on criticizing the video since its as a training tool/example.



Last edited by SUBS_17; 06/17/14 01:01 AM.


"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3969056 - 06/17/14 11:32 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
F-15C corner speed is 440kts - 550kts


No, it isn't. It depends on weight and it's certainly nowhere near as high as 550kts. The speed range is 350-450, some say as high as 475 (sometimes it's good to start your turn just above corner, so 475 would make sense).


Quote:
That's very true and I now do not see the point on criticizing the video since its as a training tool/example.


Yep, I think presenting alternatives to how things might go is good, but the video itself did a fair job or showing the classic one-circle fight and it isn't fair to criticize the video for doing its job smile


--
44th VFW
#3969060 - 06/17/14 11:38 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 7,033
komemiute Offline
Hell Drummer
komemiute  Offline
Hell Drummer
Hotshot

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 7,033
All I know is that by reading In Pursuit - by Johan Kylander (BMBM).
I'm hardly an ace, but that reading made me definitely better.


Click to reveal..
"Himmiherrgottksakramentzefixhallelujah!"
Para_Bellum

"It takes forever +/- 2 weeks for the A-10 to get anywhere significant..."
Ice

"Ha! If it gets him on the deck its a start!"
MigBuster

"What people like and what critics praise are rarely the same thing. 'Critic' is just another one of those unnecessary, overpaid, parasitic jobs that the human race has churned out so that clever slackers won't have to actually get a real job and possibly soil their hands."
Sauron
#3969239 - 06/17/14 05:52 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44
Laurwin Offline
Junior Member
Laurwin  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 44
Well, I'm not going to apologize or whatever... The original poster asked for comments criticism and I gave my thoughts on the matter, so there you go.

AS TO THE QUESTION OF... eagle using the vertical, and su-27 not using the vertical as effectively... it depends on the speeds of the both aircraft at the merge. (I think)

1vs1 guns only, both pilots know it is guns only

If su-27 is committed to slow speed spaghetti bowl dogfight, he must accelerate himself into manouvering speed etc... true or not?

If the eagle is already going at pretty good smash. It makes little sense to spend all that energy advantage in turn-fighting a slower su-27 immediately, at the horizontal plane... true or not?

Just run rings around the f***er and use vertical. It works well enough with WW2 aircraft... Use the vertical for sustaining your energy in turns...

Avoid tracking gunshots by the enemy when turning like this.

Maybe it don't work so well with radar-calculating lead gunsights. But it works well enough when you have WW2 era aircraft, faster energy fighting aircraft vs slower angles fighter aircraft.

Faster energy fighter is able to gain gunshots vs the slower angles fighter, but not immediately.

By using the vertical to his advantage, the faster aircraft can still have pretty good turn rate.

And when faster aircraft uses the vertical, he can switch around his turn radius and cut the corner of the angle fighter's turn, so to speak.

#3969268 - 06/17/14 06:43 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Laurwin]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
Originally Posted By: Laurwin
Well, I'm not going to apologize or whatever... The original poster asked for comments criticism and I gave my thoughts on the matter, so there you go.


You're not really helping the topic with the direction you are taking, but ok, just IMHO.

Quote:
AS TO THE QUESTION OF... eagle using the vertical, and su-27 not using the vertical as effectively... it depends on the speeds of the both aircraft at the merge. (I think)


That's my point.

Quote:

1vs1 guns only, both pilots know it is guns only

If su-27 is committed to slow speed spaghetti bowl dogfight, he must accelerate himself into manouvering speed etc... true or not?


No one trains for such a scenario but, ok, we're sim pilots and we do this, so I'm going with it. The answer to your question: No. It depends. His turning capability at low altitude and slow speed is superior to almost everything else out there, so if he suckers the other guy in a one-circle, he's got the cards. Realistically, the other guy would have a missile consideration and would probably try to Rmin, thus getting into such a fight. Since we're doing guns only and we all know its guns only, the other guy can do whatever he wants. If he's going mach 1000 and blows through, the flanker can still stay inside his turn circle and comfortably accelerate. The best the other guy can do now is accept a head-on pass, and those always suck. But again, this is just one variation of one scenario.

Quote:
If the eagle is already going at pretty good smash. It makes little sense to spend all that energy advantage in turn-fighting a slower su-27 immediately, at the horizontal plane... true or not?


That depends. How much fuel do they have? Maybe the F-15 doesn't have time to screw around? He's also the one who's more likely to lose sight now because he's defensive. The Su-27 isn't obligated to follow, and the tremendous turn circle the F-15 will fly now gives the 27 time to accelerate.

Quote:
Just run rings around the f***er and use vertical. It works well enough with WW2 aircraft... Use the vertical for sustaining your energy in turns...


A Su-27 at low altitude and slow speed can point right up at you and shoot at you. This isn't your grandpa's air to air combat.

Avoid tracking gunshots by the enemy when turning like this.

Maybe it don't work so well with radar-calculating lead gunsights. But it works well enough when you have WW2 era aircraft, faster energy fighting aircraft vs slower angles fighter aircraft.

Quote:
Faster energy fighter is able to gain gunshots vs the slower angles fighter, but not immediately.


Or maybe never.

Quote:
By using the vertical to his advantage, the faster aircraft can still have pretty good turn rate.


And maybe the slower guy can stay inside his TC forever.

Quote:
And when faster aircraft uses the vertical, he can switch around his turn radius and cut the corner of the angle fighter's turn, so to speak.


I say the turn fighter can pull harder and cut right back smile

I mean, are talking about blow-through and re-engagement in a second fight, then? Because if you fly the slow guy out of your TC and then turn around and come back, you've initiated a second fight, so you go back to square one. You're not gaining much advantage if he's still able to point the nose at you, and you're not guaranteed to prevent him from doing so just because you're faster.

You're not the first and won't be the last person to get splashed (or end up splashing your target) trying something like this. Everything depends, and that's why you have to analyze the situation every single second of the fight. There is a lot of stuff that can happen from start to finish, but there needs to be a starting point. This video demonstrates this starting point along with some tips.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/17/14 06:46 PM.

--
44th VFW
#3969434 - 06/18/14 01:15 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
I've been in dogfights where a guy was using an F-15 vs me in an SU33, eventhough I reduced speed to cause an overshoot the F-15 always did a high speed yoyo to remain behind me.



So breaking and trying to make it a slow fight doesn't always work. Going vertical has its advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is it gives you more energy, disadvantage is that it will reduce your speed in a multi bandit fight make you a sitting duck. Another advantage is it can completely remove you from the furball if the other guys do not know that you have gone vertical.

My own view of trying to force a slow speed fight is its better if there is more than one bad guy to maintain the corner speed and high energy than to bleed that speed off because it makes you a sitting duck.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3969439 - 06/18/14 01:18 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
F-15C corner speed is 440kts - 550kts


No, it isn't. It depends on weight and it's certainly nowhere near as high as 550kts. The speed range is 350-450, some say as high as 475 (sometimes it's good to start your turn just above corner, so 475 would make sense).




I cannot remember where I read that its also very close to the Superhornets corner speed. BTW I'm using the F-15 PFM and finding that I corner better at 400kts to allow a good balance between G and turning so that I can continue to keep a good situational awareness. (1 vs many the F-15 rocks)



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3969470 - 06/18/14 02:57 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
Let's just stick to the notion that if the bandit's on your six you're screwed, for the sake of this argument.

The demonstration is how to get to the bandit's six, or at least into a firing position. This is offensive BFM. It isn't demonstrating defensive BFM, where you could force overshoots IF you know how, AND the bandit is cooperating.

In general, bandit on six = dead for OBFM, keeps discussions simple.

Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
So breaking and trying to make it a slow fight doesn't always work.


--
44th VFW
#3969921 - 06/18/14 10:39 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Not always BTW that can also show offensive BFM also from the point of view of someone remaining on the other guys 6. From my experience just having someone on your 6 does not always mean its game over.



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3989636 - 08/02/14 09:05 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,060
Robert Murphy Offline
Member
Robert Murphy  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,060
Seattle, WA
ER, maybe I am just a (VIRTUAL NEVER FLOWN ACTUAL) crappy pilot, but GrayGhost is right: if you have a half-way-decent pilot on your six, in a halfway comparable aircraft, HE IS NOT getting off of it (said six) bar some real effort from your wingman. The joy of flying online is that it sobers you up fast: you are good--but NO ACE! Never leave your wingman, and find one who never leaves you.


"I would never allow any man to drag me so low as to hate him."

--Benjamin Disraeli

Send any and all hate-mail and death threats to: rmurphy4949@yahoo.com
#3989928 - 08/03/14 04:26 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Not always and there are plenty of examples on the history channel of historical dogfights where a situation of having someone on the pilots 6 has not always ended with the other guy scoring the kill. Some things that can happen the enemy can overshoot, he can run out of fuel/weapons and have to end chasing you, he might black out(from forgetting to ATGSM), he can lose sight of you, you could out turn/climb the bandit, you could pull a reversal of some sort, or they could crash or damage their engine/airframe from manouvers.

So there is many examples of the above which can reverse the out come of having an enemy on your 6, if you are in that situation with someone on your 6 then just remember the above and find a way to exploit the other aircrafts weaknesses to either A survive, B shoot him down. immelman



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3990094 - 08/03/14 04:15 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: SUBS_17]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,462
There's a reason why DBFM is trained instead of 'just give up'. Generally, if the guy on your six makes lesser or equivalent mistakes to yorus and enters and maintains the control zone (even for a short time if his aircraft doesn't really have a control zone against your aircraft) you're toast.

Exceptions don't make the rule.

Originally Posted By: SUBS_17
Not always and there are plenty of examples on the history channel of historical dogfights where a situation of having someone on the pilots 6 has not always ended with the other guy scoring the kill

Last edited by GrayGhost; 08/03/14 04:17 PM.

--
44th VFW
#3993451 - 08/10/14 12:48 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,509
Deacon211 Offline
Senior Member
Deacon211  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,509
Louisville, KY
Remember the old rule that, if you fly perfect Defensive ACM and the bandit flies perfect Offensive ACM, you will get shot down. You are correct that having a bandit on your six does not mean that you have lost the fight, but it is a highly undesirable place to be.

Sometimes, starting a fight that way is unavoidable for any of a number of real life reasons. But if you started neutral with a single bandit and ended up with that bandit on your six, you have probably not done something right, even if the thing you didn't do right was sticking around to fight and not running when you had the chance.

Or, as a famous movie cowboy once said,

"Dying ain't no way to make a living."

#3995672 - 08/14/14 10:22 PM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
SUBS_17 Offline
Member
SUBS_17  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 672
Right now I'm flying the DCS F-86F vs Mig15s and SU25s it is a very difficult aircraft to dogfight with because of the limitations of the GAR8 missiles. The gun sight is very similar to the P51Ds except the radar sets range which is quite handy. The main problem is the missiles don't like G and are vulnerable to atmospheric conditions like the sun. Way different to the modern Aim9s we take for granted now days in most sims. xwing



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3998162 - 08/20/14 12:52 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: INTJ_Mastermind]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
To get an unloaded GAR8 firing parameters, perhaps a lag turn or displacement roll can reduce aspect at the expense of range. Pure pursuit constantly increases the load factor required to maintain. Lead can reduce it after a time if you can hold it. Going lag for aspect then pulling hard for HCA should put you in good parameters for the missile shot.

Corner is max instantaneous turn rate. Max sustained turned rate and min radius are lower numbers. Turning bleeds energy so for a turn of say 90 degrees your initial speed should be above corner and finish below corner in a way that brackets corner. If you start at peak performance it's only going to go down and is a little inferior in terms of the calculus. Another rule of thumb I've heard is never make an offensive turn >90.

If you try to sustain corner throughout a fight you will fly big lazy circles and get shot down. Corner is nice to have as an energy reserve but it's impractical to hold onto forever especially if all-aspect missiles preclude extension-energy tactics.

#3998777 - 08/21/14 10:26 AM Re: Modern Jet BFM Tactics [Re: Frederf]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,509
Deacon211 Offline
Senior Member
Deacon211  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,509
Louisville, KY
Originally Posted By: Frederf


Corner is max instantaneous turn rate. Max sustained turned rate and min radius are lower numbers. Turning bleeds energy so for a turn of say 90 degrees your initial speed should be above corner and finish below corner in a way that brackets corner. If you start at peak performance it's only going to go down and is a little inferior in terms of the calculus. Another rule of thumb I've heard is never make an offensive turn >90.

If you try to sustain corner throughout a fight you will fly big lazy circles and get shot down. Corner is nice to have as an energy reserve but it's impractical to hold onto forever especially if all-aspect missiles preclude extension-energy tactics.



Don't forget to use the vertical. If the bandit is turning level and you turn nose low, you will retain more energy and keep your turn rate up (assuming you would have bled below corner otherwise). If you are turning lazy circles and you have altitude beneath you, you are not utilizing all your options.

Also by turning nose low, when you do raise your nose for the shot, you will be shooting with a cold blue sky background...about the best contrast you are likely to get and still the gold standard for a heater shot. Just remember not to shoot while the bandit is up sun.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Andy Bush, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Good WW2 submarine article
by oldgrognard. 05/17/21 09:35 PM
Gonna run right out and buy a Japanese Car...
by Nixer. 05/16/21 01:22 AM
Arras, WWI Colorized
by Nixer. 05/16/21 12:50 AM
Gas prices going up
by wormfood. 05/14/21 06:52 PM
Mid-Air Collision in Denver, No Injuries
by Arthonon. 05/14/21 12:59 AM
Hey, Bitcoin, Elon doesn't like you.
by Mr_Blastman. 05/13/21 02:34 AM
I'll be damned !!
by NoFlyBoy. 05/11/21 07:13 PM
RM Jet Suit Boarding
by Red2112. 05/08/21 02:07 PM
Idiot for the day
by rwatson. 05/07/21 10:55 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0