Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3952398 - 05/12/14 01:47 AM Best way to remain undetected?  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 92
ru_disa Offline
Junior Member
ru_disa  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 92
In Falcon BMS, what is the best way to remain undetected by the enemy during a mission?

In a mission, I had to attack an enemy air base so I turned off my radar (first I switched it to "quiet", then later on I flicked the same switch all the way down) and try to fly the whole mission at about 500 ft or lower. No ECMs at all. I told my wingman to do the same. On my way to the air base, I was intercepted and shot down by flankers.

Can you recommend any tactic that would help me to avoid detection? Also, would keeping radio silence improve my chances?


Intel Core i7-920
GTX 560 ti 448 cores
Win7 64
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3952669 - 05/12/14 06:09 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
I'm not really sure, I think the AI can see you no matter what. You'd think flying low would work and you'd get lost in the "ground clutter," but it doesn't work like that for the AI enemy aircraft.


- Ice
#3952684 - 05/12/14 07:02 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
sorcer3r Offline
Member
sorcer3r  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
Try flying arround 300ft and avoid "low level radar" areas:



Last edited by sorcer3r; 05/12/14 07:03 PM.
#3953340 - 05/14/14 08:01 AM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 400
Comet Offline
Member
Comet  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 400
Dare I ask how much low level is Low Level in this sim?
Say that I fly at 100ft radar altitude, but at the same time I'm at 5K barometric. Am I considered at Low Level or is it Mid Altitude already?


I never finish anyth
#3953561 - 05/14/14 06:31 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Low is relative to the radar floor in your area. If terrain is being used to block radar detection all that matters is that there is dirt between you and it. The terms low/med/high alt are general ideas about the threats and terrain avoidance you encounter. If you're 100' AGL in a valley in Nepal, that's low. Nuts to what the barometer (read: altimeter) says.

#3953599 - 05/14/14 08:29 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted By: ru_disa
In a mission, I had to attack an enemy air base so I turned off my radar (first I switched it to "quiet", then later on I flicked the same switch all the way down) and try to fly the whole mission at about 500 ft or lower. No ECMs at all. I told my wingman to do the same. On my way to the air base, I was intercepted and shot down by flankers.

Can you recommend any tactic that would help me to avoid detection? Also, would keeping radio silence improve my chances?


I don't think ground-based low-level radars play a factor in this scenario. If there is an enemy aircraft in the air and if he is painting you, it doesn't matter how low you go, he will find you even at 50feet AGL.

Sure, avoiding the ground radars might help your survivability a bit, ie no enemy fighters gets vectored to your area, but once an enemy aircraft is up in the air, I think they "see" everything.


- Ice
#3953622 - 05/14/14 09:24 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
sorcer3r Offline
Member
sorcer3r  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
Originally Posted By: - Ice


I don't think ground-based low-level radars play a factor in this scenario.


If you stay outside low-level radars you will be invisible on the 2D map. So for multiplayer it is relevant but I think AI awacs has you still on his scope (and so the AI fighters). So yes maybe it is not a factor in SP.

#3953894 - 05/15/14 02:37 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 92
ru_disa Offline
Junior Member
ru_disa  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 92
So, even if my radar's off, that won't help improve my chances of slipping through? Is that how it works in reality or is it just a limitation of Falcon BMS?

Thanks for the replies, everyone!


Intel Core i7-920
GTX 560 ti 448 cores
Win7 64
#3954072 - 05/15/14 06:45 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Limitation of BMS, obviously.


- Ice
#3954181 - 05/15/14 09:22 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
sorcer3r Offline
Member
sorcer3r  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
No limitation IMO.
That AWACS / GCI have you on their scope does not depend on your radar. Also in reality.

#3954192 - 05/15/14 09:41 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted By: sorcer3r
No limitation IMO.
That AWACS / GCI have you on their scope does not depend on your radar. Also in reality.


Will AWACS or GCI pick you up when you're in the weeds? I'm no expert, but I don't think so.

Also, with regards to his last statement
Originally Posted By: ru_disa
So, even if my radar's off, that won't help improve my chances of slipping through? Is that how it works in reality or is it just a limitation of Falcon BMS?


I say this is a limitation in BMS because even on a dogfight/quick TE wherein the AI is out for blood (sometimes he'll actively engage you, sometimes he'll just do circles), even when being down low the AI will still find you. Of course in campaign missions, with so many radars active, there are more chances of you getting spotted, but it seems to me that even in a sterile TE, the AI can find you easy.


- Ice
#3954327 - 05/16/14 03:07 AM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
sorcer3r Offline
Member
sorcer3r  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Will AWACS or GCI pick you up when you're in the weeds? I'm no expert, but I don't think so.


Yes, hiding from Awacs is already for helos almost impossible as long as you are in its LOS.


Originally Posted By: - Ice

Originally Posted By: ru_disa
So, even if my radar's off, that won't help improve my chances of slipping through? Is that how it works in reality or is it just a limitation of Falcon BMS?


I say this is a limitation in BMS because even on a dogfight/quick TE wherein the AI is out for blood (sometimes he'll actively engage you, sometimes he'll just do circles), even when being down low the AI will still find you. Of course in campaign missions, with so many radars active, there are more chances of you getting spotted, but it seems to me that even in a sterile TE, the AI can find you easy.


Also without Awacs it is almost impossible to stay outside the area of ground radars. But if you stay outside (low level) ground radar range and you will get intercepted by Mig21s although your are way outside they scanning range then it will be a limitation of bms.
Anyway these situations are not easy to acchieve in a campaign.

#3954367 - 05/16/14 06:47 AM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 893
Kosmo. Offline
Member
Kosmo.  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 893
Greece
Capabilities and limitations of AI sensors are implemented in BMS (and other flavors) and are continually improved. In the campaign though it is quite hard to avoid radars as they cover a very big part of the theater. There will be a lot of ground units as well, which can relay your position if overflown. Also modern aircraft radars have very good look-down capabilities so they won't have much trouble spotting you down low.

With good planning and a bit of luck however, I can usually penetrate their defenses and have even ambushed enemy aircraft that were flying low for one reason or other on occasion. I never turn off my radar, I just have it scanning low altitudes where threats that I will have to deal with will likely appear. If enemy fighters spot you from 30k ft while you are flying at 200, chances are some other unit spotted you and relayed your position. In that case, if they're scanning low altitudes to begin with trying to find you, having your radar off won't help you.

All that said, if you spot an obviously unrealistic behavior (like an aircraft with no look-down capabilities spotting you with no assistance from AWACS/GCI/other units) make a post in the BMS forums so the team knows about it. BTW, "low" radar coverage in the 2D map is defined IIRC at 2000 ft (both for radars and SAMs), can't remember if its MSL or AGL though.

#3956748 - 05/22/14 10:13 AM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 130
Gigolety Offline
Member
Gigolety  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 130
Lugano
Initially, when you start a Campaing the radar coverage is at maximum level. Once situation evolves some SEAD reach their goals and you may find some holes in some areas. What you can do is simply fly pretty low or use some prowlers to jam some SAM zones.


I speak many languages one of them is cesky
#3956967 - 05/22/14 08:47 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Playing on ace difficulty for either/and air defenses, aircraft incredibly elevates their spotting ability with all sensors. You might sneak past a visual-only Rookie at 5nm but not an Ace. If you play on Ace all the time you'll think the AI are always so all-seeing.

#3957185 - 05/23/14 02:07 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 92
ru_disa Offline
Junior Member
ru_disa  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 92
I hadn't though about lowering the difficulty level. That makes sense, actually...


Intel Core i7-920
GTX 560 ti 448 cores
Win7 64
#3957275 - 05/23/14 05:53 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: ru_disa]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Look at Realism Patch 5 Manual.pdf in Legacy Manuals folder. Much of how the AI works is in there if it's anywhere.

#3957354 - 05/23/14 08:45 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: Frederf]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Haukka81 Offline
Member
Haukka81  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Kemij�rvi,Finland
Originally Posted By: Frederf
Look at Realism Patch 5 Manual.pdf in Legacy Manuals folder. Much of how the AI works is in there if it's anywhere.


Good reading but many things are not in bms yet... Because they started bottom (vanilla F4) , so sam traps etc.. and ambush cap's etc.. are not there or not work.



-haukka81


I5 8400 , 16gb , GTX 1070 oc , Win10 64bit . Virpil T-50 27" monitor with 2560x1440 rez ... DCS + Oculus CV1 + Samsung Odyssey . (odyssey is better for flight sims)
#3957365 - 05/23/14 09:30 PM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: Haukka81]  
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 893
Kosmo. Offline
Member
Kosmo.  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 893
Greece
Originally Posted By: Haukka81
Good reading but many things are not in bms yet... Because they started bottom (vanilla F4) , so sam traps etc.. and ambush cap's etc.. are not there or not work.


They didn't start at the bottom, their "start" (as BMS) was picking up where OF (which is a descendant of RP) stopped. That said, I really don't know if any of this stuff had been removed at some point, though I can't imagine why they would be. I don't remember reading anything about them being removed in any of the BMS changelogs either.

#3957895 - 05/25/14 08:55 AM Re: Best way to remain undetected? [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Haukka81 Offline
Member
Haukka81  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 284
Kemij�rvi,Finland
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: ru_disa
In a mission, I had to attack an enemy air base so I turned off my radar (first I switched it to "quiet", then later on I flicked the same switch all the way down) and try to fly the whole mission at about 500 ft or lower. No ECMs at all. I told my wingman to do the same. On my way to the air base, I was intercepted and shot down by flankers.

Can you recommend any tactic that would help me to avoid detection? Also, would keeping radio silence improve my chances?


I don't think ground-based low-level radars play a factor in this scenario. If there is an enemy aircraft in the air and if he is painting you, it doesn't matter how low you go, he will find you even at 50feet AGL.

Sure, avoiding the ground radars might help your survivability a bit, ie no enemy fighters gets vectored to your area, but once an enemy aircraft is up in the air, I think they "see" everything.



Nope,

Here is how it goes :

If you spotted from groudn radar or even enemy inf , they will send your location to iads network and nearby fighters will be directed to intercept you. BUT they don't know your location if nobody cant keep you in radar or vis.

I have many times sneaked to deep in enemy territory, its quite nice to look acmi in tacview and see that when i pass some enemy troops nearby cap will turn to my direction but when troops lost me and i turn away migs still go to where i was saw last.

And least mig-23 and mig-29 radar look down is poor so if you are low (about 200ft) and far you wont be spotted even they show up in RWR.


-haukka81


I5 8400 , 16gb , GTX 1070 oc , Win10 64bit . Virpil T-50 27" monitor with 2560x1440 rez ... DCS + Oculus CV1 + Samsung Odyssey . (odyssey is better for flight sims)
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0