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#3951030 - 05/08/14 09:02 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Dummy is a simulcrum, a weighted box of the correct dimensions.

Training is a box with some features of the real weapon. Interface at least, possibly including flight systems.

This would be my usage of the terms... not sure if this exactly matches the one used in this case.



e.g. a dummy cartridge is an inert round, a blank is a training round - in the case of a conventional small arms cartridge this would be a wad and a small amount of powder. Other types of training round might include plastic or 'airsoft' type non-lethal ammunition natures for force on force training where increased realism is desired with low risk technologies (Miles etc is expensive and complex compared to this).

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3951036 - 05/08/14 09:26 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: farokh]  
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I-RAN
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Farouk,if no reply in next 5 min ,you go to manpad class ...
PS: you are looking for 3 items ... RTFM


Any other opinion is much welcomed...


Well,time is up...

So inside an OSA canister could be :
1. A dummy missile
2. A training missile or
3. An arial drone Saman M missile...

Farouk,what is the difference between a dummy and a training missile ?


i think ... saman missile usualy used for high tactical sam systems lke TOR
for example... OSA launching a saman missile for TOR ! and TOR can kill him on air !

but about dummy missiles... i think they are real missiles without any warhead rolleyes

sir.. you asked me about traning and dummy missile difference !
so i answer that rolleyes

befor asking ... you must start a class for us readytoeat

Last edited by farokh; 05/08/14 09:28 PM.
#3951196 - 05/09/14 04:10 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Lieste]  
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Athens
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Dummy is a simulcrum, a weighted box of the correct dimensions.

Training is a box with some features of the real weapon. Interface at least, possibly including flight systems.

This would be my usage of the terms... not sure if this exactly matches the one used in this case.



e.g. a dummy cartridge is an inert round, a blank is a training round - in the case of a conventional small arms cartridge this would be a wad and a small amount of powder. Other types of training round might include plastic or 'airsoft' type non-lethal ammunition natures for force on force training where increased realism is desired with low risk technologies (Miles etc is expensive and complex compared to this).


You are so right !
thumbsup

#3951199 - 05/09/14 04:38 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: farokh]  
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ePap Offline
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Athens
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: ePap
Farouk,if no reply in next 5 min ,you go to manpad class ...
PS: you are looking for 3 items ... RTFM


Any other opinion is much welcomed...


Well,time is up...

So inside an OSA canister could be :
1. A dummy missile
2. A training missile or
3. An arial drone Saman M missile...

Farouk,what is the difference between a dummy and a training missile ?



i think ... saman missile usualy used for high tactical sam systems lke TOR
for example... OSA launching a saman missile for TOR ! and TOR can kill him on air !

but about dummy missiles... i think they are real missiles without any warhead rolleyes

sir.. you asked me about traning and dummy missile difference !
so i answer that rolleyes

befor asking ... you must start a class for us readytoeat


...but lessons have already started !

Report to AREA 51... winkngrin

#3951225 - 05/09/14 08:49 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hello. How I can resolve problem with SA-8 error: Can't create autoredraw image?

Last edited by Amazon; 05/09/14 09:15 AM.
#3951279 - 05/09/14 01:18 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Amazon]  
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Originally Posted By: Amazon
Hello. How I can resolve problem with SA-8 error: Can't create autoredraw image?


Unfortunately OSA requires ~4GB of RAM.
If you use 32bit Windows, and have 4GB RAM, you can try this...

http://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/au...ndows-XP-s.html



... or buy more RAM and a 64bit OS.

Last edited by Hpasp; 05/09/14 01:20 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3951726 - 05/10/14 07:45 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Actually Im running it just fine with 2 GB only. thumbsup

#3951749 - 05/10/14 10:20 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Vympel]  
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Originally Posted By: Vympel
Actually Im running it just fine with 2 GB only. thumbsup


Win 7?

#3951751 - 05/10/14 10:31 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Vympel]  
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Originally Posted By: Vympel
Actually Im running it just fine with 2 GB only. thumbsup


What Operating system?
32 or 64 bit?


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3951790 - 05/10/14 01:45 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Ditto here. 64 bit op sys with 2 gb ram.

#3951795 - 05/10/14 02:01 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Mdore Offline
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I'm running it fine too, and it's only taking 450MB for me. I assumed it was a weird side effect of me running Linux. Looks like I was wrong.

#3952120 - 05/11/14 10:36 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Vympel Offline
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Jugoslavija
Its win 7 x64.

#3955213 - 05/18/14 08:46 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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hi hpasp i have many question about sa 8 akm

does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)?
when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency?
does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?)
what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?)
a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation)
the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)?
if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object?
does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)


when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ?
can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)?
can the enemy jam the SVR ?
can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna?
can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ?
what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?

when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse?
if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target?
does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?

does it use random prf against target injection?

what modulation the sa8 use?

thx for answer




Last edited by Migow; 05/18/14 08:47 PM.
#3955438 - 05/19/14 11:59 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Migow]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: Migow
hi hpasp i have many question about sa 8 akm

does sa8 use sidelobe blanking (a omnidirectionnal antenna)?
when working with mti how many pulse does it send before it can change frequency?
does it use intrapulse coding (frequency coded? phase coded?)
what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?)
a plane can inject early false target ( false target before the real plane) and late target?if( there is no random intrapulse modulation)
the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)?
if not it can be jammed with a jam that simulate a no newtonian object?
does it has protection against doppler velocity gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)


when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ?
can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)?
can the enemy jam the SVR ?
can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna?
can the enemy jam the Monopulse Medium beam Missile Guidance Radar ?
what's the missile beacon power , i guess it use frequency hopping , does it use too the spread Spectrum?

when working without mti does it frequency hopping between each pulse?
if it is the case(without mti) a plane can't inject early false target (no false target before the real plane) only late target?
does it has protection against range gate theft?( automatic recapture or AGC spoof-free?)
does it have protection against blinking jamming ?(2 planes that jam one after other , useless i guess because the camera ?

does it use random prf against target injection?

what modulation the sa8 use?

thx for answer


Such a detailed questions from a newly registered one...
eek

Several of these questions are actually outstretches the scope of a free simulator, so I cannot answer those.
SAMSIM only simulates noise jamming, no other advanced jamming method is simulated.
We are discussing OSA-AK version here, not the AKM.
I will try to answer those that I can...

what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?)
Manual page 25, its not altitude, but elevation angle

the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)?
Helicopter rotor is always visible.

when enemy use noise jamming on both surveillance radar and tracking radar , is there a way to have range ?
Through PU12. Manual page 19.

can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)?
No, as it has a narrow perpendicular beam, so jamming it is usually too late.

can the enemy jam the SVR ?
Usually no, the missile has a powerful beacon, and it is closer to the OSA than the target.

can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna?
Why on earth would you jam a transmitting only system???
banghead


Last edited by Hpasp; 05/19/14 02:00 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3955697 - 05/19/14 09:11 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Quote:
the sa8 can track no newtonian object ( helicopter with mti)?
Helicopter rotor is always visible.


when working in doppler the system can only have lock on newtonian object (the object move forward or rearward not the two at the same time like a helicopter's rotor or jamming)

Quote:
Special consideration is required for aircraft with large moving parts because pulse-Doppler radar operates like a phase-locked loop. Blade tips moving near the speed of sound produce the only signal that can be detected when a helicopter is moving slow near terrain and weather.

Helicopters appears like a rapidly pulsing noise emitter except in a clear environment free from clutter. An audible signal is produced for passive identification of the type of airborne object. Microwave Doppler frequency shift produced by reflector motion falls into the audible sound range for human beings (20-20,000 Hz), which is used for target classification in addition to the kinds of conventional radar display used for that purpose, like A-Scope, B-Scope, C-Scope, and RHI indicator. The human ear may be able to tell the difference better than electronic equipment.

A special mode is required because the Doppler velocity feedback information must be unlinked from radial movement so that the system can transition from scan to track with no lock.

Similar techniques are required to develop track information for jamming signals and interference that cannot satisfy the lock criteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-doppler_radar#Helicopters

does it have those special mode to track helicopter , and to protect against jam that simulate (target with receding AND advancing movement at the same time to break track (jammer could break old sa6 missile track but not the improved))

Quote:
can the enemy jam the SVR ?
Usually no, the missile has a powerful beacon, and it is closer to the OSA than the target.


the tunguska and tor move to missile tracking flare (IR)(because sa8 svr could be spoof or jam?) 2k22m(can be spoof by flare or dircm?) , and then IR pulsed beacon 2k22m1(there is a reason they move to infrared)

Quote:
can the enemy jam the Missile Antenna (for SPK), is it omnidirectionnal antenna?
Why on earth would you jam a transmitting only system???


can the enemy jam the receiver on the missile (the spk is only transmitting) so the missile can't receive k1k2k3
and the receiver is it directionnal antenna?( to protect from jamming)

Quote:
can the enemy jam the proximity fuse(especially Under noise jamming , no range information)?
No, as it has a narrow perpendicular beam, so jamming it is usually too late.


the 2k22m tunguska move to 8 laser proximity fuse (to protect from jamming?) and then 2k22m1 move back to RF proximity fuse to intercept cruise missile.


Quote:
what's the minimal altitude before angular track become unreliable ?(100meter?)
Manual page 25, its not altitude, but elevation angle

the sa8 use Pulse-Doppler signal processing (high sub-clutter visibility performance ,like tunguska ,require good hardware) ? or MTI with phase cancellation ( but low sub-clutter visibility performance( old device)) ( second most likely)
if target fly near ground (how much?) the target can't be distinguished from ground because MTI can suppress only 25dB signal , the ground clutter is still higher than target(unlike pulse-doppler processing 45dB ,60 dB ...)you can't see the target (only with camera?), helicopter 's rotor rcs is low .


the question are about sa8 ak ( akm better smile )not the sim itself thx smile if you have documentation smile thx for answering smile

Last edited by Migow; 05/19/14 10:50 PM.
#3955810 - 05/20/14 04:46 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Vegas
Migow, What intelligence service are you working for?

#3955834 - 05/20/14 08:55 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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The question is about OSA-AK there in Greece have AN-64 Apache helicopter as a goal so that is can OSA shoot it down.

The idea of flight altitude 10 meters and documentation of said at least 25 meters, then it turns out the problem.

And why should the training made Stealth I do not understand how the OSA may shoot it down?




How to understand this, can someone explain why the Stealth and AN-64 Apache Helicopter at an altitude of 10 meters.


Last edited by max2012; 05/20/14 09:10 AM.
#3956124 - 05/20/14 08:23 PM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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OSA again.....

#3956730 - 05/22/14 08:23 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: max2012]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: max2012
The question is about OSA-AK there in Greece have AN-64 Apache helicopter as a goal so that is can OSA shoot it down.

The idea of flight altitude 10 meters and documentation of said at least 25 meters, then it turns out the problem.

And why should the training made Stealth I do not understand how the OSA may shoot it down?

Click to reveal..



How to understand this, can someone explain why the Stealth and AN-64 Apache Helicopter at an altitude of 10 meters.



Generally you can set the target altitude as you want.
I will correct Apache initial altitude to 25m (in 0.982.2).
F-117A can be tracked with the Karat daytime.

Last edited by Hpasp; 05/22/14 08:25 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3956754 - 05/22/14 11:00 AM Re: 9K33M2 OSA-AK (SA-8B Gecko) [Re: max2012]  
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 339
ePap Offline
Member
ePap  Offline
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Posts: 339
Athens
Originally Posted By: max2012
The question is about OSA-AK there in Greece have AN-64 Apache helicopter as a goal so that is can OSA shoot it down.

The idea of flight altitude 10 meters and documentation of said at least 25 meters, then it turns out the problem.

And why should the training made Stealth I do not understand how the OSA may shoot it down?




How to understand this, can someone explain why the Stealth and AN-64 Apache Helicopter at an altitude of 10 meters.



What do you mean stealth Apache ?
Your (OSA AK) altitude is 260m and helo's alt 10m.If you you mean that you can not see it in PPI it's ok.
I don't know if you mean you can not see it with CARAT.Is that so?

PS: we use AH-64A for training in GREECE and not to shoot them down ... winkngrin

Last edited by ePap; 05/22/14 11:05 AM.
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