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#3934496 - 04/04/14 02:33 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: ObvilionLost]  
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Originally Posted By: ObvilionLost
I'd say war games do glorify war to some extend. Only reason why I see war as something horrible is from war stories from my grandfather who fought on Eastern Front from 1943 until 1945, as many already know, this was one big meat grinder.
If you don't mind me asking, did he serve there on the Axis or Soviet side? Just curious. smile


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#3934508 - 04/04/14 02:52 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I don't feel that they glorify war. They are just games, play em that way and teach your kids that way. The old TV show, The A-Team, glorified war/violence. No one ever died, and the good guys always won.

On another note. I went from a nice surround sound speaker system to SS headphones. My wife asked me to because all the FPS games were giving her nightmares.


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#3934545 - 04/04/14 03:57 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Another point to consider is it may actually be a positive. If I didn't own old tactical shooters and games like Age of Empires I would have never gotten a big interest in military history.

As for the significant other, it doesn't give her nightmares but 1: I sound like a nerd when I play arma or fly and 2: sometimes fast paced games like Titanfall are obnoxious to listen to wink


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3934555 - 04/04/14 04:08 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Soviet side, 275th Separate Sapper Battalion. Southern Front from November 1943, First Baltic Front from June 1944 and 3rd Army since December 1944. Just for interesting history read: http://www.lithuanianjews.org.il/HTMLs/article_list4.aspx?C2014=14329&BSP=14062&BSS59=14055 read about Wolf Wilensky, Hitler is lucky that people like him did not storm his bunker. Sorry couldn't contain myself just love history especially when there is human connection tied to historical events. biggrin

Last edited by ObvilionLost; 04/04/14 04:17 PM.
#3934578 - 04/04/14 04:40 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I think the opening 20 mins of Saving Pvt Ryan is a very good intro to what real combat can be like as opposed to the silliness of a COD, MOH, or other video game. Grim necessity, pain, futility, and death. No glory, no cheering, no BOOYAH!

If all a kid sees is COD, I can picture them thinking that hey, real war can't be that bad?

If a kid sees the assault on Omaha Beach, even a Hollywood-ized version of it, how can they think it's NOT?

COD today is just what Q3A was over 10 years ago with the veneer of authentic military forces.



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#3934586 - 04/04/14 04:51 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Giving the issue more thought today
Many have already stated this but Movies
Have done a lot more to have glorified war then Video games
I was trying to remember how many war films I have Viewed that could be considered an anti War movies All quiet on the western front. full metal jacket. platoon. Casualties of war. Saving private Ryan sort off the opening scenes the D Day landings were brutally real.
But on the whole they have tended to be jingoistic in there content. I grow up watching john Wayne type
War movies. Where if a guy was wounded it was normally in the shoulder or arm in a magic world where guys did Not feel the pain of there wounds. At least todays war movies are a little more real.

Last edited by marko1231123; 04/04/14 04:54 PM.
#3934590 - 04/04/14 04:54 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Keep in mind most of us also grew up on the silly Wayne style films, and it very well may have inspired plenty of our people to pursue noble causes.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3934599 - 04/04/14 05:02 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Kontakt5]  
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Originally Posted By: Kontakt5
The intro to Warhammer Dawn of War sort of glorifies war


Interesting that you should use this to illustrate the point. Are you at all familiar with the WH40K setting and fiction? Basically Space Marines are humans removed from society around the age of puberty, brainwashed and indoctrinated into a cult and turned into utterly merciless killing machines who spend the rest of their days serving the Imperium of Mankind, which is basically the most cruel, murderous and ruthless regime you could possibly imagine.

The setting is extremely grim and does not glorify war at all.

#3934607 - 04/04/14 05:12 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Peally]  
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There are enough movies that glorify war. Zero Dark Thirty not only glorifies war to some extent but it seemed even glorifies torture. When I was watching it in movie theater, some parents even bringing their kids.

Originally Posted By: Peally

As for the significant other, it doesn't give her nightmares but 1: I sound like a nerd when I play arma or fly and 2: sometimes fast paced games like Titanfall are obnoxious to listen to wink


I feel like a nerd just by reading After Action Reports or articles about tactics on SimHQ hahaha

#3934610 - 04/04/14 05:15 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Peally]  
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Originally Posted By: Peally
Keep in mind most of us also grew up on the silly Wayne style films, and it very well may have inspired plenty of our people to pursue noble causes.



Don't get me wrong, the Duke was my hero when I was a kid.
And in fairness he tried to enlist when the Americans entered WW2.
They said he failed the medical, but I would speculate he was to valuable to the wars propaganda machine to risk Being killed in combat.

#3934613 - 04/04/14 05:21 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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We shouldn't confuse a film with "glorifying war" and a war film being made in such a way as to cater to a mainstream audience. As a general rule, movie audiences like to see an infallible or near infallible hero. They like to see war films with a clearly defined "good side" and "bad side".


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3934615 - 04/04/14 05:21 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Originally Posted By: marko1231123
Originally Posted By: Peally
Keep in mind most of us also grew up on the silly Wayne style films, and it very well may have inspired plenty of our people to pursue noble causes.



Don't get me wrong, the Duke was my hero when I was a kid.
And in fairness he tried to enlist when the Americans entered WW2.
They said he failed the medical, but I would speculate he was to valuable to the wars propaganda machine to risk Being killed in combat.


I think that unlikely. Jimmy Stewart was flying B17's and dropping bombs.

#3934621 - 04/04/14 05:26 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Pielstick]  
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Originally Posted By: Pielstick
Originally Posted By: Kontakt5
The intro to Warhammer Dawn of War sort of glorifies war


Interesting that you should use this to illustrate the point. Are you at all familiar with the WH40K setting and fiction? Basically Space Marines are humans removed from society around the age of puberty, brainwashed and indoctrinated into a cult and turned into utterly merciless killing machines who spend the rest of their days serving the Imperium of Mankind, which is basically the most cruel, murderous and ruthless regime you could possibly imagine.

The setting is extremely grim and does not glorify war at all.


No, I have no experience with it other than the computer game.

All war in reality is grim, glorifying what is grim about war is what we're talking about.

The setting being grim isn't what I'm talking about- I'm talking about the presentation of the intro screen. When the space marines are charging the hill, the rousing music is playing, every last one of them are wiped out, but the flag is planted against the backdrop of the setting sun and elicits the feel of that heroic effort- yeah, I'd say that scene glorifies combat a bit.


Keep in mind I also said this is a fantasy setting and that the actual gameplay itself doesn't look like this (I think the actual meat of the computer game is cartoonish and doesn't really look grim or glorious).


No one gets out of here alive.

#3934626 - 04/04/14 05:33 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I am surprised no one mentioned Sniper Elite 2, which seemed popular among teenagers especially they enjoyed looking at how a bullet travels through someones head.

#3934629 - 04/04/14 05:36 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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The idea that war is noble comes from a time when men at arms were aristocrats and gentlemen- they literally were from the nobility, and as such had rules such as chivalry (or Bushido) or whatever they came up with. People funded their own training and equipment and swore an oath not to countries but to lords. They in turn would raise armies from the lower classes, who probably didn't think there was much anything noble about it as those codes didn't apply to them.

This is before the Industrial Age and before industrial warfare, that is, before uniform conscription, regulations or issued equipment, before mass production, before total war.

This is a stark illustration about the nobility of the first of the industrial scale wars, the American Civil War:

http://www.medicalmuseum.mil/assets/images/galleries/civil_war/Wallen.jpg

I never found the idea of wars in self defense were noble, nor the idea of wars fought for political gain or territory as noble. Nobility actually meant a code of conduct for a select class, the idea of which is antiquated.


No one gets out of here alive.

#3934630 - 04/04/14 05:42 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Sims don't generally glorify war. Shooters, real time strategy etc sometimes do, you know, the more mass market games...

I think I'd get annoyed with your buddy too. God forbid that his kid might:

1. Go to school and be taught how WW2 was such an important war because of the "evil" we fought against. (one example)
2. Watch the myriad TV shows and movies that glorify war. (or violence in general)
3. Watch an American sporting event where they have military aircraft flyovers, and take time to thank and recognize soldiers during the broadcast.
4. Listen to talking heads on news programs demanding that the USA/Israel/UN attack some country because they are "bad".
5. Make friends with other kids who like to play "Army" or "guns".
6. Etc etc?

Point is that even if he doesn't let his kid play military games, he's going to be constantly bombarded with messages from everywhere that either glorify war, or make it more attractive in some way.

I didn't read all 8 pages of replies...


I refuse to buy a flight sim that I have no interest in playing, on the off chance that MAYBE someday they'll make the one I really want to play.

#3934633 - 04/04/14 05:45 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Kontakt5]  
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Originally Posted By: Kontakt5
The idea that war is noble comes from a time when men at arms were aristocrats and gentlemen- they literally were from the nobility, and as such had rules such as chivalry (or Bushido) or whatever they came up with. People funded their own training and equipment and swore an oath not to countries but to lords. They in turn would raise armies from the lower classes, who probably didn't think there was much anything noble about it as those codes didn't apply to them.

This is before the Industrial Age and before industrial warfare, that is, before uniform conscription, regulations or issued equipment, before mass production, before total war.

This is a stark illustration about the nobility of the first of the industrial scale wars, the American Civil War:

http://www.medicalmuseum.mil/assets/images/galleries/civil_war/Wallen.jpg

I never found the idea of wars in self defense were noble, nor the idea of wars fought for political gain or territory as noble. Nobility actually meant a code of conduct for a select class, the idea of which is
antiquated.



Your statement is correct.
I was amazed to find out that British private schools used to keep arsenals of weapons
So they could train the next generation of officers and you were basically guaranteed a commission
If you went through that system. (not sure if they still do)

Last edited by marko1231123; 04/04/14 05:47 PM.
#3934634 - 04/04/14 05:48 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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The battle of Agincourt had zero chivalry involved despite the heavy presence of nobles as combatants. War has never really had a code aside from modern ROE (somewhat), it's more of a semi organized clusterf*ck.

That being said, knights sword fighting are cool, and the rest doesn't matter to a child nor should it. Sword wounds are horrifying, and I grew up with a concept of that despite thinking that swords fights are damn fun (and still are). It's ridiculous to drill the horrors of the world into a child at an early age and refuse basic entertainment like whacking each other with sticks (AKA ye olde video games). You're not raising a voting 40 year old man in a 5 year old's body.

I would disagree that defensive wars aren't noble. There isn't anything much more noble than attempting to defend your family, land, and friends against a large hostile aggressor. The overarching principles are admirable, even though the actual fighting won't exactly be pleasant. The french resistance did nothing short of miracle work, even though it involved killing as many Nazi party members as possible (yep, I just brought Godwin's law into the fray biggrin )

Those are my thoughts, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the points you laid out.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3934636 - 04/04/14 05:50 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Peally]  
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Originally Posted By: Peally
Originally Posted By: TankHunter
Originally Posted By: radicaldude1234



And not a single person would buy it, excepting some very mentally disturbed people that would get a big kick out of it. Games aren't the place for sob stories about humanity and no one is going to learn a damn thing from something that over the top, other than wondering why they wasted 60 bucks on it.


I'm not saying that you necessarily make games like that, though I can think of one that apparently tried to show the horrors of it (Spec Ops: The Line). But what I am saying is that media in general glosses over these truths. For society I don't think that is good. Especially when there are so many who feel that war is something to be used to "right" moral wrongs but who never get to see the blunt immorality of the act itself.


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Even if you have a crown and sit at a throne
In the end you will have nothing
Even if you are destined for great riches
In the end you will return to the dust
#3934643 - 04/04/14 05:57 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing myself. It's subjective; an all or nothing approach is simply silly and lazy. There are places for education on the real world and there are places for having fun.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
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