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#3934184 - 04/03/14 10:39 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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#3934185 - 04/03/14 10:39 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Clydewinder]  
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Originally Posted By: Clydewinder
Great thread BTW, and good comments by all.

bump


+1.

I am half tempted to forward on Ssnakes comments to my friend.
But I wont. LoL My friend and I agreed to disagree I will leave it there.
By the way his son will be ten on Friday And I was going to get him Call of duty before I asked my mate for his Sons preference in games. looking at the pegi he would have been to young any way. which in its self is Interesting that you can play a game like that at the age of thirteen but not a DCS module there all sixteen's.
This has been an interesting discussion, I wonder what way the consensus would have went on a none gamer forum.

#3934187 - 04/03/14 10:40 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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Apple agrees completely I guess from their ban the game because of enemies thing.

In their little warm, fuzzy world there are no enemies.

That world is as real as Caprica.


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#3934192 - 04/03/14 10:50 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Give a five year old boy a stick and he'll either A) pretend it's a rife and "shoot" one with it, or 2) realize it can be used as a club and hit one with it.

War and violence are a vital part of us on a hardware level.

Glorify war for noble reasons....or someone else will teach them ignoble reasons for fighting them.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#3934198 - 04/03/14 11:04 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Dart, you forgot option c) - if it's pointy you can stab with it, or d) throw it as a spear.


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#3934199 - 04/03/14 11:07 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Ah... throwing sticks as spears. They never really flew straight did they?


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3934217 - 04/04/14 12:04 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake
...or playing D&D!


Oh yeah, that was a biggie back in the day. I'm glad my parents were above thinking that way.

I think COD is a little much for a 10 year old. Just my 2.
I let my son play at 11 and I wish I'd held off another year or so. The problem is you can't control what other parents allow, and kids will do things at other houses they can't at yours, unfortunately, when their friends can. There's a difference between that and giving the kid something the parent doesn't agree with though.
It isn't just about violence, but language too. Too young and they don't ignore things as well as if you let them mature a bit.
My son is 14 and I still have his 360 locked down to friends-only comms in games. There are some idiots out there and if I heard him mimicking some of those taunting kids (and adults!) he'd be offline in a heartbeat.


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#3934218 - 04/04/14 12:07 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Agreed. Watch your kids, I really have no desire to play with yet another mini Hitler online.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3934272 - 04/04/14 02:24 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: radicaldude1234]  
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Originally Posted By: radicaldude1234
I think military simulations should be as realistic as possible. Not just the gore and agony of those taking part, but also the collateral damage inevitably inflicted on civilians and the refugees that war causes.

Military games tend to focus on the glory of war that is distilled into a simplistic good vs evil conflict, and almost totally ignore the horrors. I know seeing bodies realistically torn apart by modern weaponry, experiencing inadvertently dropping a bomb on the wrong house, and passing columns of physically young men whose exhausted eyes look as if they've already died inside won't sell games. But it's part of the terribly terribly sad thing that is war.

I also don't think that striving to depict the true nature of human conflict diminishes the courageous deeds of those survived them. Rather, it highlights the difficulty and truly extraordinary will that it took overcome those difficulties and do something more than survive.

But that's just me.

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it. - Robert E. Lee


Agree. Thats the thing I noticed with media in general, it sanitizes what happens. With news you may hear for example "Israel bombed :insert thing here: and killed 6 Palestinians." But you never see say some poor father digging his 4 year old daughter out of the ruins, finding her and holding her body with her half crushed skull. All because her home may have been near a tunnel or some such. The same thing with some attack by Boko Haram or some other damn thing.

Media may document the tragedy of events, but not the sobering, brutal horror of them. Perhaps showing the horror of it may undermine some Manichean narrative, or undermine our will to use force but I think it is rather important to show. When we decide to "go to war for humanitarianism" or democracy or some other damn thing it is probably important to illustrate what exactly that entails. In each case it involves visiting brutality upon people, often enough against civilians and non-combatants, whether it is intended or not, or whether we use "smart" weapons or not. The result might be hundreds or thousands of civilians being turned into hamburger over a matter of weeks or months (if things go well). If not it may lead to tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of civilians being turned into hamburger, or executed in various ways as a result of them being a member of the wrong tribe, sect, etc over a matter of years, or decades.

Last edited by TankHunter; 04/04/14 02:25 AM.

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#3934287 - 04/04/14 03:25 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Some one has to protect the village and it seems its generally built into little boys. The issue is the that folks attempt to often protect their children in the wrong ways from images of violence. Buying COD or some such for a 10 year old who has never seen real images of say ww2 and had that explained to them, but here is this fun game you can play. That is the introduction to conflict? Stories and entertainment have always focused on conflict. The tales of a great warrior or tribal leader are everywhere in history. Was often the result of your families and communities survival in difficult times. Modern mans number 1 predator is another human. Its a sad state of things. Sometimes good people have to go to war.

I think their is a hell of alot of focus on the "fun" fighting bit in entertainment and not on the moral reasons and after math. I am not saying beat people over the head with it, but just a bit of a reminder. But from oral tales to games with a myopic focus and parents that want to think the world is a safe wonderful place, just what are the costs? Now we indeed have the little hitlers running around in online games. Parents clearly failed their children. So now what?

I was I guess a weird kid. I was reading about the battle of Jutland and ww2 in general at age 8. My Mother was a Vietnam vet and of course both male grand parents where ww2 and one also in Korea. It was made vary clear in a good way what war was. I also had my NES playing things like metal gear. It was a freaken fun game =) But I had that moral fiber of what real war was, a horrible nasty thing that sometime good brave people have take one for their tribe, community, or nation. It is at the same time a truly sad thing, but also a vary noble thing to do. Just pray the powers that be unleash the hell of war for a GOOD reason.

But 10 or 11 year olds who after playing COD say insane things like I think it would be fun to shoot someone is totally screwed up. Is it the game or the parents?

#3934301 - 04/04/14 03:47 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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From Forgotten Soldier, by Guy Sajer:

In no time, it (a tank) had crossed the trench, which was overflowing with the bodies of Russian soldiers. Then a second and a third tank plunged through the bloody paste, and rolled on, their treads stuck with horrible human remnants. Our noncom gave an involuntary cry of horror at the sight.

Later:

Young Lindberg, who had been in a state of panic ever since the beginning of the offensive, and who had been either weeping in terror or laughing in hope, took Kraus's machine gun and shoved two Bolsheviks into a shell hole. The two wretched victims were both a good deal older than the boy, and kept imploring his mercy. We could hear their desparate shouts for a long time. But Lindberg, in a paroxysm of uncontrollable rage, kept firing until they were quiet.


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#3934304 - 04/04/14 03:50 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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marko, do you have trouble locating the question mark on your keyboard?

#3934332 - 04/04/14 05:43 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
Originally Posted By: Ssnake
...or playing D&D!


Oh yeah, that was a biggie back in the day. I'm glad my parents were above thinking that way.

I think COD is a little much for a 10 year old. Just my 2.
I let my son play at 11 and I wish I'd held off another year or so. The problem is you can't control what other parents allow, and kids will do things at other houses they can't at yours, unfortunately, when their friends can. There's a difference between that and giving the kid something the parent doesn't agree with though.
It isn't just about violence, but language too. Too young and they don't ignore things as well as if you let them mature a bit.
My son is 14 and I still have his 360 locked down to friends-only comms in games. There are some idiots out there and if I heard him mimicking some of those taunting kids (and adults!) he'd be offline in a heartbeat.


Just a quick addition, i used to play a bit of the original cod and my boy would have been 9 back then. I let him play it with me one night and later he had this monster of a nightmare. When he had calmed down and we were talking about it in bed at about 2 am he told me how all of the bad soldiers kept coming at him and were shooting him and he couldn't get up. No more games like that for a while needless to say biggrin We both still remember that night pretty clearly lol.

He is 17 now and plays GTA and black ops and the usual crop of games for that age and hasn't managed to beat up any old ladies on the street and does not think war is a 'fun' thing. He also listens to Megadeth and other like bands and is probably one of the nicest and most polite kids one could meet.


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#3934348 - 04/04/14 07:05 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I'd have absolutely no trouble with a law that made all egoshooters and military sims PG16 or something to that effect (assuming that there was a reasonable way to phrase such a law without loopholes, or overreach - which is of course impossible). What I'm trying to say is that violent conflict shouldn't be trivialized in the presence of children, but at the age of 15, 16, they better have matured to the point that they can be exposed to it. At that age it only gives them a year or two to make up their minds about fundamental ethical questions of grave consequences - like conscription (where it still exists) or voluntary enlistment, be it the military, or law enforcement.

That said, there are still ways to introduce children to what violence and war means in a responsible manner, and in a non-trivializing and non-traumatizing way. Responsible parents will usually find a way, and there is no standard approach. I'm more concerned about the sad cases where no effective parental control exists because of child neglect. But that's a whole different aspect. Spending some time together is usually the best way to sense if a new video game is suitable for your kids.


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#3934360 - 04/04/14 08:58 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Dart, you forgot option c) - if it's pointy you can stab with it, or d) throw it as a spear.

e)Some of us got a piece of string and made a bow out of the stick - then you could throw another stick further smile

Last edited by Alicatt; 04/04/14 08:58 AM.

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#3934381 - 04/04/14 10:47 AM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted By: Alicatt
Originally Posted By: Ssnake
Dart, you forgot option c) - if it's pointy you can stab with it, or d) throw it as a spear.

e)Some of us got a piece of string and made a bow out of the stick - then you could throw another stick further smile


I prefer to make an atlatl with my sticks.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 04/04/14 10:47 AM.

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#3934405 - 04/04/14 12:29 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I think that war games in general do glorify war to some extent. Just the same as the old ballads and epics did. Fighting seems to be part of the human condition. Historically we have glorified the warriors in most cultures. Young boys seem to have a militaristic/warrior streak in them as others have pointed out. Give them a stick and they are knight. Playing at war comes natural to them. Computer games just reflect that basic predisposition and up-the-ante with a technological improvement on the stick or board game. I think that like most technology it can be problematic because the technology advances so fast that we humans can't keep up or adjust fast enough. Some young people can be overwhelmed by the experience. Those who have some mental issue or weakness can be adversely affected. So do we limit it for all because of some ? I don't think so. But it is a troubling issue.

I can't play a lot of games because it causes troubled sleep and dreams.


Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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#3934424 - 04/04/14 01:04 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: TankHunter]  
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Originally Posted By: TankHunter
Originally Posted By: radicaldude1234



And not a single person would buy it, excepting some very mentally disturbed people that would get a big kick out of it. Games aren't the place for sob stories about humanity and no one is going to learn a damn thing from something that over the top, other than wondering why they wasted 60 bucks on it.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3934466 - 04/04/14 01:57 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I suppose I'm just as weird a parent as I am a person otherwise - my son has always been immersed in geography and history. One of his first "picture books" was a world map; history is nearly meaningless without the geography to put it into perspective.

That said, I would never castigate a parent for limiting specific content from their child, since every child is very different. It's almost like they're individual people!

Knowing one's kid is the key. Some kids have no problem understanding cartoon violence from real violence, while others don't.

Then again, when I was about six I let all the trout off the stringer because they were suffering and struggling with each other, and no amount of gentle suggestions would get my father to kill them to put them out of their misery.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#3934493 - 04/04/14 02:24 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I'd say war games do glorify war to some extend. Only reason why I see war as something horrible is from war stories from my grandfather who fought on Eastern Front from 1943 until 1945, as many already know, this was one big meat grinder.

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