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#3933923 - 04/03/14 03:28 PM Are Military Sims glorifying War.  
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I was speaking to a friend of mine today, Its his sons birthday on Saturday
I am going to get his son a computer game for his birthday.
So I asked my friend what type of Games does his son like, to which my mate replied anything accept a war game
I asked why, He replied war games glorifies war. my point to him was if anything they show how lethal modern Weapons and combat is and how futile war is. He countered this argument with how many war games show in detail
What happens to a human being when he is hit with a bullet or blown up set on fire. (A Valid point) the discussion went on for a while. We agreed to disagree on the subject.
I will of course respect His wishes and not get his son a military type game.
This is probably the wrong place to post this,
But do you guys think there is any validity in his argument.

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#3933930 - 04/03/14 03:40 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Difficult and realistic stuff like Arma or Rise of Flight have driven the point well home to me that being dead or not is often just a matter of luck.

On the other hand plenty of "Call of Duty" style games do glorify the "hero" saving the world by killing the "bad guys".

#3933933 - 04/03/14 03:44 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I would probably do this until my brain exploded rolleyes

It's his kid so it's his call, but no, I think he needs to loosen his panties a bit. We have plenty of people here that are incredible people, and they all seem fine after those evil video games.

Additionally, sometimes a human being needs to be hit with a bullet or set on fire, and we pay good money to train people to do it. Most video games hardly make this realistic (for a reason) but the world ain't perfect. Games would be damn boring without conflict and TV is a thousand times more violent than your average sim.

But then again, I believe in teaching kids about what they see and what it means, and imbuing them with good morals from their parents instead of letting video games teach them about the world.

That is my rant, worth as much as you paid for it biggrin

Edit: I should probably add when I'm thinking of military games I'm thinking of the original Operation Flashpoint, Rise of Flight etc, not Doom and Call of Duty. There's a difference and as a parent it's their job to get off their ass and do some research.


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#3933935 - 04/03/14 03:45 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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This is analogous to asking if action movies glorify violence so I'll leave it at that except to simply say that if you think a game is "glorifying war" then simply don't play it.


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#3933937 - 04/03/14 03:46 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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SIMS imo show war to be an awful bloody mess.

Games that show modern war as fun filled adventure are something else. Many folks on the "outside" can not see the difference. Modern COD sort is awful, it does nothing right to portray combat for what it is. Older teens can generally tell the difference. I really do not think younger children can. The brain washed 11 year old kid who asked me who I VERSED in Iraq made me want to hit the parents.

But on the other hand, just about everything glorifies violence in media.

RO2 at least has soldiers crying for momma as they bleed out. I do not see how any sane person would want to fight on the Eastern front after playing that for awhile.

#3933950 - 04/03/14 04:02 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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How old is the kid?
As I think everyone agrees, it's the parents' right, but also age can be a factor. Waiting until the kid is older and learns the difference between real and tv/movies/games and can be talked to and understand that games have little to do with how things are in real life is a very good idea. IMO that means early teens, maybe 12, but different kids mature at different rates, so earlier or later might be better for some.

I've kind of seen the opposite effect. From time to time I talk to my kids about joining the military when older. My son has an image of everyone going out to get shot because of the games. I'm trying to teach him that everyone is trained with a gun and basic training, but it takes 1000's of people behind the scenes to make the military work, not just infantry. Not everyone is up front with a gun as a Marine or in the Army. I want them to use the opportunity for some technical education, learn a skill, see the world or at least the US some. Not to mention the discipline I know my son in particular would benefit from. Having seen some ships and planes, I thought Navy or Air Force would suit them. That's probably me projecting my interest on them though. They're still young of course, but my son needs to be making plans for after high school.


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#3933959 - 04/03/14 04:30 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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The first time I picked up Operation Flashpoint after years of CoD, MoH, counterstrike, (doom, unreal etc) it was harrowing, scary, and I loved it. Military sims dont' glorify anything. No Achievements popping up, no "KILL STREAK!!!"
Simulations are just that, and you can feel it in your gut. I absolutely think that CoD glorifies war, it also makes it fun! Just like counterstrike. Those aren't sims... they are shooters. I mean... games like POSTAL, you gotta be educated about what you're buying, what you're looking for.

I bought Arma 2 for my 11 and 9 year old. We played one mission, where they didn't fire, but I did. They were uncomfortable. I'll trot that out in another couple years, whoops.

#3933973 - 04/03/14 04:54 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I just checked the age ratings on a few games.
Its 16 for DCS and 13 for MOH.
I cut and pasted the ESRB game ratings.
They look about right to me.



Rating Categories

esrb ratings symbol for ec games EARLY CHILDHOOD

Content is intended for young children.


esrb ratings symbol for E-rated games EVERYONE

Content is generally suitable for all ages. May contain minimal cartoon, fantasy or mild violence and/or infrequent use of mild language.


esrb ratings symbol for e10 games EVERYONE 10+

Content is generally suitable for ages 10 and up. May contain more cartoon, fantasy or mild violence, mild language and/or minimal suggestive themes.


esrb ratings symbol for T-rated games TEEN

Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.


esrb ratings symbol for m-rated games MATURE

Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.


esrb ratings symbol for AO-rated games ADULTS ONLY

Content suitable only for adults ages 18 and up. May include prolonged scenes of intense violence, graphic sexual content and/or gambling with real currency.


esrb ratings symbol for rp rating RATING PENDING

Not yet assigned a final ESRB rating. Appears only in advertising, marketing and promotional materials related to a game that is expected to carry an ESRB rating, and should be replaced by a game's rating once it has been assigned.


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NOTE: Rating Category assignments can also be based upon a game or app's

#3933987 - 04/03/14 05:28 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I think it's a clear glorification of war. That said, it's usually not glorifying the essence of war which would be the destruction of nations and the control of mankind. It's usually not glorifying the men rulers who wage war on soldiers and civilian populations. What is glorified is the competition aspect of the war, him or me, machine against machine and so on. Nobody can deny that war machines are pretty awesome. They look the part and they bring technology forward faster than anything. It's quite a lot of fun to play hide and seek and shoot another player and be the winner.

With millions of games to choose from I don't see why it should be a war game. Get the kid a driving game and a racing wheel (and a heavy metal album).

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#3934004 - 04/03/14 05:54 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Kids have been playing "army", "cowboys and indians", "pirates", "King Arthur and swords" and all of that for hundreds of years. The difference now is the graphical aspect of games, but some would argue acting out the roleplaying like kids did a lot more of before video games is just as bad.
As long as there are kids, there will be war games of some sort.


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#3934028 - 04/03/14 06:18 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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They don't in and of themselves glorify war unless they have a particular message which does that, which is actually pretty rare. I can't think of many simulation or sim-lite games which actually impart a specific message glorifying war much more than a game of chess does that (which is after all a primitive war game), or lots of jingoism or nationalism or the idea that war is fun, even if the games themselves are fun.
Military simulations usually don't portray all that much gore, either. If anything, the opposite sort of happens- blow up a plane, ship, truck, tank, or house, you don't necessarily see the deaths of the characters inside of them.

Even arcade ego shooters like Battlefield or Call of Duty- which are usually more close and personal (or games like Doom, which are bloodier), than more sim-like games probably do not glorify war as much as people would believe, otherwise you would see lots and lots more people quick to enlist and request a combat MOS or related field.

I think people's values aren't as simply malleable because of video games, just the same way that authority figures and morality groups have contended that games tend to de-sensitize young people and promotes mayhem and violence, there's no actual causation there- if anything, violent crime statistics seem to have no causal relationship with violent content in games, crime rates can go up or down independent of all that and are probably associated with a slew of other risk factors. You can have a bunch of dudes who never get out of the house playing Xbox wasting other video game characters all day long for their entire lives, but the moment that a patriotic call for enlistment comes, these guys would be the first to say, "No way, hell with that."

What you will see are some individuals- whether prone to criminal behavior, or whether they had heroic or romantic ideals about war to begin with- attracted to violent video games and military simulations, but they already brought that to the deal beforehand. That could be something already related to their upbringing, local culture, or even genetics.



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#3934040 - 04/03/14 06:27 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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That's the thing, we only look at the extreme levels though, because that's what comes through the media. Not the small influences seeing someone's head explodes has on the psyche of a youngling. Sure, they do well in school, never kill anyone, basically get over it, laugh about it with friends. But the slight taint to states of mind, to being a loving person, all that... very volatile substances in all people. Maybe they value all human life or all life .1% less. Maybe they see the fragility of it all and value life .1% more. It all depends on the weave and the weaver of our threads of life. I can have bloodsoaked yarn, or I can have rainbow colored warm cloud yarn to weave with.

News does the same thing.

Reading the news on my computer: "Father rapes daughter, leaves body in a trashcan, shoots mother than self" (paraphrase) big red letters headline on my screen. Turn around, there's my son looking over my shoulder.

I dont' know what my point is anymore ... I want a drink.

#3934043 - 04/03/14 06:29 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
Kids have been playing "army", "cowboys and indians", "pirates", "King Arthur and swords" and all of that for hundreds of years. The difference now is the graphical aspect of games, but some would argue acting out the roleplaying like kids did a lot more of before video games is just as bad.
As long as there are kids, there will be war games of some sort.


Exactly. Does building a block fort for plastic army men glorify war? He's got a lever-action cap gun, does that glorify violence? We've built some model fighter planes and battleships together, is that war-mongering? I think not.

I let my son ( 2nd grade ) play a bunch of different games on the computer and an old X-Box... I draw the line at blood and coarse language. If there is a "blood/gore on/off" option it goes to off, and if the game contains anything more profane than the word "crap" then it's no-go.


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#3934050 - 04/03/14 06:37 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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The more you try to isolate a kid the more the real world is going to b*tch slap them in the face.

Death is a pretty damn common theme in the real world, and games that aren't moronic gore fests touch on the good parts while minimizing the bad. Unless you have a sadly low desire to teach your children proper values video games aren't going to change a thing.

I remember when I was a wee lad, I was incredibly nervous asking my parents to buy me a shooter for my console, Rainbow Six 2. I'd never had a "realistic" and violent game before, and after I received it and played it you know what I learned? Shooters are fun games to play. That's it. I wasn't raised by fools, and I didn't use a game to teach me a damn thing other than some guns look cool and multiplayer is a blast with friends.

I expect the parent in the original post to censor all TV and movies that have an iota of violence as well, and all interactions with fellow children while we're at it. Sticks too. Anything less is just being a hypocrite.

Of course, this is assuming the kid is older. We aren't talking about a 2 year old here I assume.


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#3934051 - 04/03/14 06:38 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I think that we have so insulated kids from "life" that sometimes a computer game could affect them. What was pretty 'normal' for a farm kid ......slaughtering pigs, cattle, chickens; or even shovelling manure would now "traumatise" children.

As to games glorifying war ....I agree with Raw Kryp and Clydwinder


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#3934052 - 04/03/14 06:38 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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People see things different ways, and to say it makes no difference is the same extreme as saying it makes a ton of difference. Some people are more weak-willed/minded and are swayed by external forces quite a bit. Others are stronger/stubborn and don't get changed easily if at all.

I will however point out that the history of the USA at least is one of extreme violence, from early fighting with the natives to colonial proxy wars to independence and civil ones followed by overseas all along still fighting amongst ourselves.

Before videogames it was movies and TV. Before that it was music. Before that it was comic books. Before that it was regular books. Through it all has been drugs and alcohol. There are always "harmful" forms of entertainment that some claim need to be suppressed or eliminated or at least highly regulated, and there are always going to be people who will consume it even if illegal.

How much you decide to expose your children to, how you present it, and when, is up to you.




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#3934060 - 04/03/14 06:45 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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At the risk of sounding PWEC, our foreign policy is not peaceful- it is very forceful, using military force in order to achieve political objectives when other states do things or don't do things we don't like. We spend more than other country on 'defense,' and none of that has anything to do with video games. Likewise, North Korea glorifies war in a way that appears completely absurd to everyone else, and it's not because of video games or Hollywood.

Even when state governments start the drum beats for war, it doesn't always mean their citizens are fully enthused about it, either.


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#3934062 - 04/03/14 06:48 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: Clydewinder]  
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Originally Posted By: Clydewinder
Originally Posted By: Raw Kryptonite
Kids have been playing "army", "cowboys and indians", "pirates", "King Arthur and swords" and all of that for hundreds of years. The difference now is the graphical aspect of games, but some would argue acting out the roleplaying like kids did a lot more of before video games is just as bad.
As long as there are kids, there will be war games of some sort.


Exactly. Does building a block fort for plastic army men glorify war? He's got a lever-action cap gun, does that glorify violence? We've built some model fighter planes and battleships together, is that war-mongering? I think not.

I let my son ( 2nd grade ) play a bunch of different games on the computer and an old X-Box... I draw the line at blood and coarse language. If there is a "blood/gore on/off" option it goes to off, and if the game contains anything more profane than the word "crap" then it's no-go.






I agree with most of your comments.
But I cant help thinking although I have never served in the military.
Why have I got such an interest in weapons and tactics,
could it be in my youth I played war games, Action man toy soldiers
My father was a war movie/Documentary fanatic
I used to watch them with him.
My point is maybe I was militarised with out even knowing It.
I watched a documentary once about future soldiers
Part of the commentary stated the younger generation were able to adapt to high tech weapons systems a lot Quicker Due to there exposer to computer technology, Hell the American army even created a free Game.
That put You through basic training and It was a pretty good game.

#3934067 - 04/03/14 06:52 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Well, there is an appeal to it- the extreme risks, the skills which it takes to survive, and so on.

Maybe there's an evolutionary explanation for it- even young animals of many species participate in mock combat as a form of play.


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#3934071 - 04/03/14 06:56 PM Re: Are Military Sims glorifying War. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I think videogames largely trivialise the subject rather than glorify it.

Rarely are there moral decisions that have any actual implications for the player, particularly in the typical first person shooter. Even when MW2 did the hugely controversial airport thing, the choice of how to play through the level didn't have any bearing on the outcome or events further down the line.

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