Cant we all just get along ?

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I for one will not play WOFF again until they get this sorted out...or until the next chance I get to sit at my computer for more than 5 minutes. [/quote]

Can we make that into a poster? Take the pledge?

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I'd buy that poster.

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Hasse, I also would not rank this issue anywhere near the top of the list of priorities.

To your statement that the Germans certainly used the word "flak" in WWI do you have any contemporary writings that support this? Again, I have never seen the term used in any of the WWI period literature, reports, tech articles, newspapers, etc, that I have read over the years. If you have any primary sources written during the war that use the term I really would like to read them. I'm not saying it isn't possible that the Germans used the term in WWI but without proof it is only supposition at this point.

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I concur with Louvert..FLAK was a WW2 coinage..not mentioned in anything I have read over the years RE: ww1.

As I recall,the term "Archie" came from a line in a very popular British music hall comedy of the time, where a female character uttered the the words, "Archibold..please!" when abruptly surprised. Hence the slang use by the flyers when they were 'abruptly surprised'.

That's what I recall having read as the origin of use..

I think it was in reference to a popular song, "Archibald, Certainly Not!"

http://monologues.co.uk/George_Robey/Archibald_Certainly_Not.htm

Huh, apparently it's believed this fella first uttered it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amyas_Borton

(with slang, I think it's probably hard to say who said it first, but at least someone thinks it was this guy!)

No, you may be misunderstanding me. I don't mean "flak" in the sense that it was used in WW2, when it meant anti-aircraft *fire* especially in Allied usage. The original German word refers to the anti-aircraft *gun*.

What I mean is that the German army used abbreviations for their different weapon systems. "BAK" and "Flak" are just examples of this system, there were many others. "MG" for Maschinengewehr, "FH" for Feldhaubitze, "FK" for Feldkanone, "Mrs" for Mörser, "MW" for Minenwerfer - etc. etc. etc.

In practice, you have names for weapon systems like this: 10.5 cm FH 98/09, which means a 10.5 cm field howitzer, year model 1898 / 1909.

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Hasse, perhaps you are misunderstanding me. I am familiar with the German abbreviation system and in this discussion "FLAK" would stand for Flugzeugabwehrkanone, (FLugzeugAbwehrKanone). However, it is my understanding that this particular weapon name, and thus its abbreviation, did not exist until sometime in the late 1930's. Again, until I can see a written document from WWI that uses the word "flak", or for that matter "Flugzeugabwehrkanone", I will continue to maintain my position. Flak was not used in WWI.

Great discussion by the way.

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Well, unfortunately I don't have access to any *original* WW1 documents. I really wish I had, but I doubt that many people have.

But the name was indeed used in Germany during WW1. (Fliegerabwehrkanone or Flugabwehrkanone, not Flugzeugabwehrkanone.) I've seen it mentioned many times in history books and weapon abbreviations, like the famous "flaming onion" gun, the 3,7 cm Maschinenkanone M-Flak, or the 8.8 cm Krupp AA gun from 1917, the 8,8cm K.Zugflak L/45. These are not names given to the guns in the 1930s, but contemporary names used in WW1. I'm not sure about English language books though. They may not use these names.

There were also special schools in Germany for the training of flak crews. They were called "Flakschule". Here's a link to a film from the German Bundesarchiv showing the "flaming onion" gun in action in a Flakschule:

http://www.filmportal.de/video/flakschule-in-blankenberghe

I was able to find a pic from a 1912 book that shows one BAK gun. Poor quality, but readable. The name "Ballonabwehrkanone" is printed under the lower right gun.



Source: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=148740&start=150

And yes, I also love these discussions.

Searching for flak in German Wikipedia, I found this:

"Als Hauptziel sahen militärische Taktiker zunächst weniger das gegnerische Flugzeug, sondern den Fesselballon oder das Militärluftschiff, daher setzte sich anfänglich die Bezeichnung BAK für Ballonabwehrkanone durch. Sie wurde im Mai 1916 in Flugabwehrkanone geändert."

Basically it tells that the German military called their anti-aircraft weapons BAKs at first, because balloons and airships were expected to be used a lot in war, not aircraft. But in May 1916, the designation was changed to Flugabwehrkanone.

Source for this is Hermann Cron: Geschichte des Deutschen Heeres im Weltkriege 1914–1918. Berlin 1937, S. 215 (Neudruck, Osnabrück 1990).

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OK Hasse, you're starting to turn my opinion, and thanks for the correction on "Flugzeugabwehrkanone", (my German is beyond terrible). However, the Cron source you cite was written in 1937 and it is an unfortunate truth that too often historians have applied terms and ideas in use at the time of their writing backwards into the period they are writing about. I have seen countless such anachronistic occurrences over the years. So, again, find a primary source written during the war that uses any of the flak-related terms you've listed above, or better yet the word 'flak' itself, and I will concede.

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I have seen the word "Flak" umpteen times in the WW1 German Kofl 4. and 6. Armee reports, which I own. "Flak," on its own, or as part of another compound word, such as "Flaktreffen," "Flakzüge," "Flakfeuer," etc. Point being, the word "Flak" DID exist in World War One.

From a Kofl 4. Armee report dated 13 July 1917:

Well, that's definitely an original document! Thanks for sharing it, JFM.

Geez JFM;

That must be one hell of a library room you have. I would love to go through it!

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Outstanding Jim! OK, now I'm convinced and I shall take my lumps ... and buy the next round to boot.



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Ummh; Can I have a stout?

Interesting vid.

Looks like those things had a high tendency to jam. They looked to have a helluva time clearing jams and the video is regularly cut where they were bad ones.

Yes, it was still new technology and must have suffered from teething problems.

But when they managed to hit something, those shells must have shredded the canvas crates into small pieces!

Cripes - did you see how the whole gun seems to be jumping when it fired?
I wonder how much accuracy was lost by that. When the muzzle moves 1 inch,
that might be 200 yards at 300 Meter altitude?

I must apologise for starting such a discussion, though I must say I have enjoyed every post!

I do have a knack for spotting anachronisms, like filter cigarettes being lit with gas lighters in WWII or even WWI.
And when watching 'A bridge too far' I noticed that the beautiful C47s were being held by chocks that didn't come into RAF service until the middle or late 50s. I know because I have pulled a lot of those same steel chocks about by their chains.

Some anachronisms are forgiveable - like the Fokker Triplanes in 'The Blue Max' - at least one had a real rotary engine, but the other aircraft had radials. As rotaries are like the proverbial rocking horse poo they did well to have one at all.

Oh, and another famous one is in 'Ice Cold in Alex' which is set in about 1942 where down a side street can be seen a Land Rover which was first made in 1948.