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#3917466 - 02/27/14 11:04 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Olham Offline
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Originally Posted By: JimAttrill
Some anachronisms are forgiveable - like the Fokker Triplanes in 'The Blue Max' -
at least one had a real rotary engine, but the other aircraft had radials.

Well, working rotaries might have been rare by then - that's excuseable.
But if I remember it correct, then there are much worse mistakes.
Like guns, which don't have any feeding belts - but they still fire!


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#3917474 - 02/27/14 11:45 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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The film was probably made by the same people who made John Wayne Westerns, Olham. John could fire one bullet and kill three Indians with it! ahhh Hollywood. wink


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#3917483 - 02/27/14 12:53 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Well, we all know: he wasn't any cowboy - he was John Wayne! attack


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#3917527 - 02/27/14 02:13 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: Olham]  
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Originally Posted By: Olham
Originally Posted By: JimAttrill
Some anachronisms are forgiveable - like the Fokker Triplanes in 'The Blue Max' -
at least one had a real rotary engine, but the other aircraft had radials.

Well, working rotaries might have been rare by then - that's excuseable.
But if I remember it correct, then there are much worse mistakes.
Like guns, which don't have any feeding belts - but they still fire!


Ah, but I was a 'sumpy' or 'oiler' in the RAF - not a 'plumber' yep


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#3919093 - 03/02/14 03:31 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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The flak word may have been around in WW1 but I cannot recall a pilot using it in all the books I've read from that period.

#3919238 - 03/02/14 10:38 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted By: Hellshade
The film was probably made by the same people who made John Wayne Westerns, Olham. John could fire one bullet and kill three Indians with it! ahhh Hollywood. wink


The Duke's pistols just never needed reloading, Hellshade. You're thinking about Joey Bishop as Dean Martin's Indian sidekick in "Texas Across the River". I've only seen the movie once, but the scene was hillarious. Typical wagon train attack. Wagons in a circle barricade, everyone firing. Martin walks to Bishop's position and Bishop fires...three Comanche fall. Bishop fires again...three Comanche fall (the same three, btw). Later the movie cuts back to Bishop who fires again and the same three Comanche fall. He pulls the trigger and the gun is empty, so he throws it....


Do I have to say what happens next? thumbsup


**edit**
I should say "The Duke's pistols never needed reloading except as a plot device." sorry

Last edited by vonBaur; 03/02/14 10:39 PM.

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#3919368 - 03/03/14 07:52 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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I used to count the number of shots they could fire with a six-shooter without reloading. Sometimes over 20. My sister, however was horse-mad and used to complain that the posse changed horses from one shot to another. Most people (including me) wouldn't notice. popcorn


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#3919981 - 03/04/14 08:45 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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The earliest use of "FlaK" must be at least prior to 1923, as there was a 2cm FlaK 28 introduced (and immediately outlawed by the Versailles Agreement, the weapons being sold to Switzerland).

The WW1 "flaming onion" gun was also referred correctly as the Masch-FlaK (presumably machine anti aircraft gun, which might permit a hand loaded weapon to be referred to as merely "FlaK")

#3922904 - 03/10/14 09:49 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Richthofen uses in his Book in Chapter 26 the Word "Ballonabwehrgeschtze".

#3923233 - 03/11/14 03:45 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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On the whole the language is quite appropriate to the time, but I do find it quite jarring when more modern words of phrases are used. One phrase that certainly was not used was "listen up". This is very definitely from the middle of the twentieth century, and American in origin. As an eighty year old englishman, I regard the "up" part as entirely superfluous - plain old "listen" is quite good enough to summon attention!

#3923563 - 03/12/14 06:47 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted By: Lieste
The earliest use of "FlaK" must be at least prior to 1923, as there was a 2cm FlaK 28 introduced (and immediately outlawed by the Versailles Agreement, the weapons being sold to Switzerland).

The WW1 "flaming onion" gun was also referred correctly as the Masch-FlaK (presumably machine anti aircraft gun, which might permit a hand loaded weapon to be referred to as merely "FlaK")


I have no doubt what you say is correct. The original point is that the RFC pilots always talked and wrote about 'Archie' and never used the word 'Flak' which the RAF did use after about 1938 and through that war.

In a similar vein, the USAF in Vietnam started to use 'AAA' instead of 'AA', possibly because they were up against SAM2's as well as guns. This is a good example of how the US beaurocracy will never use 2 words when 3 will do.


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#3925913 - 03/17/14 01:27 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Well, I did finally find out where "ack-ack" came from. It seems before there was an international phonetic alphabet, everyone had the their own. The British phonetical 'A' was 'Ack.' There for, AA became "ack-ack." So that is not rally a slang term for AA, it's the phonetic for AA. And I have to agree with everyone else, most of the books I've read that were written on the subject, either during, or shortly after typically refer to AA as "Archie."


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#3925915 - 03/17/14 01:30 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Originally Posted By: JimAttrill

In a similar vein, the USAF in Vietnam started to use 'AAA' instead of 'AA', possibly because they were up against SAM2's as well as guns. This is a good example of how the US beaurocracy will never use 2 words when 3 will do.
Yeah, calling it "Anti-Aircraft" wasn't enough for our government. They had to refer to it as "Anti-Aircraft Artillery." Why? I don't know, because. Triple Play!!! (Abbot and Costello reference. wink )


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#3926065 - 03/17/14 06:41 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: Al Lowe]  
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Originally Posted By: Al Lowe
Originally Posted By: JimAttrill

In a similar vein, the USAF in Vietnam started to use 'AAA' instead of 'AA', possibly because they were up against SAM2's as well as guns. This is a good example of how the US beaurocracy will never use 2 words when 3 will do.
Yeah, calling it "Anti-Aircraft" wasn't enough for our government. They had to refer to it as "Anti-Aircraft Artillery." Why? I don't know, because. Triple Play!!! (Abbot and Costello reference. wink )


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#3926351 - 03/18/14 09:39 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Yes, the British radio phonetic alphabet at that time had 'Ack' for A. In WWII it became 'A for Apple' before being taken over by the NATO standard 'Alpha'.

In WWI the fitters and riggers were called 'Air Mechanics' which was shortened to 'Ack Emma'. This is possibly where the RAF slang term 'erk' came from for an airman (not an NCO or an Officer). But don't quote me as nobody seems to know where the term came from. I think the word went out of use sometime in the 50s anyway.

And the USAF don't say 'Alpha Alpha Alpha' for AAA. They say 'triple A' which sounds much better I suppose.


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#3926619 - 03/18/14 07:54 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Of course, that makes it sound like you can pull over to the nearest cloud and wait for a tow truck if you have engine trouble. But I guess that's better than "AA", which makes it sound like they're all a bunch of drunks.


pilots, a bunch of drunks??? on second thought....


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#3927371 - 03/20/14 10:56 AM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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If you can believe 'Goshawk Squadron' it seems a lot of them were drunk. One mistake the author makes is stressing the effects of Castor oil on their digestions which was not a problem with in-line engines with long exhaust pipes as used in the SE5a. It was a problem with all the rotary engines of the time.

He also stresses that their aircraft were obsolete in early 1918 which was not true at all.

But the book is still fun to read, although I prefer 'War Story' which is much more accurate and less sensational.


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#3946010 - 04/28/14 08:14 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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I was too lazy to go through all six pages, so someone may have posted this already...

The word "Archie" stems from a then-favorite dancehall hit titled "Archibald, certainly not!"

The word "Flugabwehrkanone" and thus "FLAK" was officially adopted in 1916 by the German Air Service to replace the older "BAK" which had been in use until then. biggrin

I don't know about the origin of "AAA", but I would assume it stands for "Anti-Aircraft Artillery".

#3946380 - 04/29/14 12:47 PM Re: The word 'flak' was not used in WWI [Re: JimAttrill]  
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Right on all three points thomas. I should have named this thread "the word 'flak' was not used by the British in WWI", but at the time I didn't know that the Germans used it at that time. You live and learn...


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