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#3912269 - 02/15/14 01:40 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I'd give up FSX for an Apache in DCS. I believe this will never happen though.....licensing or some such thing i heard.


I miss all the old sims too F-19, Strike Eagle and even Silent Service. Sunk more ships then i ever have with Silent Hunter 3/4

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#3912273 - 02/15/14 01:46 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: Ssnake
The genre could use more "Strike Commander" style games,
There have been plenty of those already made like Birds of Prey, Jetfighter V and those Pacific lite sims such as Midway Battlestations.


Strike Commander was pretty much as hardcore as it got back then. Virtual cockpits, multiple weapons systems, MFDs (albeit not realistic, but nothing was back then), HUD, takeoffs and landings, rudimentary RWR, etc.

In today's world with our technology, we could use something with FC3 level aircraft and a good single player experience.

Last edited by bonchie; 02/15/14 02:49 PM.
#3912455 - 02/15/14 09:36 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted By: Ssnake

The cold war and the war against the Nazis easily fits a "good vs bad" binary morality (at least at first look, things get a bit muddied if you look closer), which makes a great backdrop for the comparatively simple narration that a simulation can actually convey.


Not really, when you consider that one ideology murdered 100 million.


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#3912615 - 02/16/14 06:37 AM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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The more posts I read on this subject the more I am convinced.
That the main reason for the decline in sales was due to ultra realism by the
Sim/game designers. There were other factors. consoles etc. but I believe Simulation
Designers got better and better at recreating real world weapons platforms thus taking away the fun factor For the Casual gamer. There will always be hard-core military simulation enthusiasts like most on this site
But for most its to much hassle. just take a look at the start up sequence for the Huey in DCS.
Yes there are sort cuts. but for the casual player just one look at the amount of key combination's
Is IMO off putting. This probably explains why simple games like WOT and war thunder do so well
Pick up and play.

#3912619 - 02/16/14 07:32 AM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Simulations are dead and dying for one reason and one reason only.

The current gamer generation has been so force-fed the quick pickup and play style that the perceived necessary attention span for in-depth applications is simply outside said generations comprehension or tolerance level. Therefore, it doesn't justify any potential developer capital for investment in Sim or realism based projects, period. These are niche markets, and they're growing even more niche by the year.

EDIT - But don't take my word for it. Plenty of articles and interviews out there on why previous mainstays of this genre ceased development long, long ago.

Last edited by DetCord; 02/16/14 07:34 AM.

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#3912632 - 02/16/14 08:30 AM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Well, at least realism in switchology is much easier to achieve than creating a realistic, procedural environment. If realism is what the "audible audience" demands - those customers that take the time to voice their opinions - a developer is taking a great risk to ignore that wish. If that kills the interest of a silent majority, you might realize it only when it is too late already.

It is obvious though that time spent on developing the switchology is time taken away from creating a more complex environment (or a storyline). The (good) storytellers among the game developers have long moved to different formats, simply because in a flight sim flying, and the jet itself, are the actual star of the game, which makes it much harder to tell a good story. Most good stories revolve around people, after all, not machines. (Not saying that it is an impossible task, just more challenging.)


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#3912704 - 02/16/14 03:56 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I've never felt the need to have a narrative in a flight sim. The narrative should be the war itself that the flight sim is taking place in.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3912708 - 02/16/14 04:14 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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I want to have fun when I play a game now and flight Sims were beginning to feel like a job, a job I wasn't good at! I had great fun with the people I flew with but not with the Sims themself.


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#3912712 - 02/16/14 04:36 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: bonchie]  
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Originally Posted By: bonchie
Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted By: Ssnake
The genre could use more "Strike Commander" style games,
There have been plenty of those already made like Birds of Prey, Jetfighter V and those Pacific lite sims such as Midway Battlestations.


Strike Commander was pretty much as hardcore as it got back then. Virtual cockpits, multiple weapons systems, MFDs (albeit not realistic, but nothing was back then), HUD, takeoffs and landings, rudimentary RWR, etc.

In today's world with our technology, we could use something with FC3 level aircraft and a good single player experience.
Still have the 3.5" disks for Strike Commander, my computer was not powerful enough to run it and I had to borrow my brothers 486, loved to play it none the less smile
Chris Roberts, Strike Commander's creator, has moved on now, and after a brief spell telling stories for Hollywood he has once again turned back to games with his forthcoming Star Citizen which I'm quite looking forward to.


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#3912716 - 02/16/14 04:43 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Mace71]  
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Originally Posted By: MaceUK33
I want to have fun when I play a game now and flight Sims were beginning to feel like a job, a job I wasn't good at! I had great fun with the people I flew with but not with the Sims themself.


Same here. IL2, and the Strike Fighters series are about the most complicated I am willing to deal with. That isn't because of being an ADHD gamer or some other thing (I have been playing stuff like Steel Beasts for years) but because I'm not that interested in learning all the ins and outs of a modern aircraft's systems. If I was I'd join the USAF! Even then I'm rather useless at flight sims. That said I have always been more interested in tactics than the technical aspect of things. That's why I gravitate to ground combat.


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Even if you have a crown and sit at a throne
In the end you will have nothing
Even if you are destined for great riches
In the end you will return to the dust
#3912719 - 02/16/14 04:51 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Mace71]  
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Originally Posted By: MaceUK33
I want to have fun when I play a game now and flight Sims were beginning to feel like a job, a job I wasn't good at! I had great fun with the people I flew with but not with the Sims themself.



That was that case for me when I moved from M1 tank platoon 2 to SB.
I hardly ever lost a mission and won every campaign I played in tank platoon
Then I loaded up SB. No problem I thought I am a reincarnation of patton. LoL
Man did I get a wake up call. It took me a little time to realise.
it wasn't the sims fault I keep getting my Arse kicked. You don't stand toe to toe with your opfor.Even the mighty M1 is vulnerable. M1 was a game a good game but still a game SB was a sim
So I started to research real world tactics and doctrine I joined a VU.
And low and behold I started to win missions. Why because I started to use real world tactics
We are very lucky in the SB community there are a lot of serving and ex Tank crew willing to spend the time
To show us how its done. I am glad I stayed with it and did not return to M1 tank platoon.

Last edited by marko1231123; 02/16/14 05:02 PM.
#3912759 - 02/16/14 06:16 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
I've never felt the need to have a narrative in a flight sim. The narrative should be the war itself that the flight sim is taking place in.


Maybe not in a modern sim, but imagine a WWI and/or WWII sim with some RPG elements. Could work very well if done correctly; and all that within a dynamic environment/ world. Think in terms of the first OFP campaign, but better. wink

Edit: Or take some of the Wing Commander storytelling and combine it with a Pacific Theater campaign set on an aircraft carrier with at least IL-2-like-fidelity.

These are just some examples of what could be done to enhance gameplay and get bring fun back into combat simulations.

Last edited by Jayhawk; 02/16/14 06:20 PM.

Why men throw their lives away attacking an armed Witcher... I'll never know. Something wrong with my face?
#3912763 - 02/16/14 06:34 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Agreed Jayhawk. I think those examples you cited would work really well.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3912765 - 02/16/14 06:35 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Realism and complexity are not necessarily exclusive. The ARMA series is realistic, but its not that complex. the complexity comes from the tactics, if you want to stay alive.

Rise of Flight is realistic, but is it complex? I dont think so. A modern gen 5 combat jet is going to be complex, if done on a simulation level, that is a given. If you want to just go around blowing up stuff there are plenty of games that will let you do that.

I dont see what the complaining is about. You dont have to buy DCS A-10 if you dont want the switchology, you can buy Flaming Cliffs3. You dont have to use "complex engine management" in the IL2 series if you don't want to, and even so -- adjusting radiator and prop pitch is not really that complex.

In the end, sims are a niche market always have been. Its just that the gaming market is much bigger than it used to be and some of the old guys have moved on to other things. However, I would not be surprised it the same percentage of people were into hardcore sims today as back in the 90s.

#3912779 - 02/16/14 07:08 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Flaming Cliffs - IMO, and apparently in that of many others - is still boring. Less complex, but just as boring. wink

It's too sterile. It feels totally artificial. For me, anyway.


Why men throw their lives away attacking an armed Witcher... I'll never know. Something wrong with my face?
#3912798 - 02/16/14 07:56 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Jayhawk]  
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Originally Posted By: Jayhawk
Flaming Cliffs - IMO, and apparently in that of many others - is still boring. Less complex, but just as boring. wink

It's too sterile. It feels totally artificial. For me, anyway.


Fair enough biggrin

From a gameplay perspective my favorite of all time was Mig Alley -- eventhough the graphics sucked even for its era. but I loved fragging missions and the whole campaign atmosphere they achived even in single player.

Sound (in the form of radio calls and flight and ground control interaction) is a massive immersion booster that does not require massive amounts of graphic intensity. A game that can manage an AI battlespace like MigAlley or better yet Falcon 4.0 can more than make up for some dime novel story line IMHO.

#3912814 - 02/16/14 08:42 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: marko1231123]  
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Looking at my favourite sims of all time, they usually have some 'strategic' element in common. This can range from just mananging a pool of airframes, crew and weapons (Jane's F/A-18) to managing all air ops in the entire theatre (Mig Alley). Failure or success of a mission usually also has direct repercussions on the next one, e.g. your squadron will have fewer aircraft, that transport you sank last time means that the enemy will have less supplies, or that dreaded squadron of red-nosed Migs has rotated into your sector.

I like a fair bit of button pushing as much as the next guy, but what draws me in is what I would call "mission realism": knowing that failure to shut down your target may make the next mission harder, having to decide wether it is better to sacrifice the virtual lives of your wingmen now or to come back another day. Failing a mission won't end the campaign or force you to refly the same mission, but does affect the outcome of the campaign as a whole.

I do not care for written storylines ("you have just completed training and are about to..."), the actual events in the missions and the icons on the briefing map should be enough to provide the full story and any roleplaying can be left up entirely to the player's imagination. Newsreel movies or period music may be a nice bonus, but certainly are not essential. Pacific Air War did perfectly well without.


Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
#3912841 - 02/16/14 09:42 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Rick.50cal]  
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Originally Posted By: Rick.50cal

Demise of milsims from 90's


I think there are a couple of reasons for this demise. But the single biggest reason is that we consumers got VERY greedy.

In the mid-90's, if it had the right number of engines, and you could use flaps to land, it was accepted as "realistic". Today people try finding flight envelope charts to compare them...and promptly dismiss the entire product if it diverges from that chart. And if it uses less than 3000 poly's, or the cockpit is for an A model and not the C model in exterior view, its branded "garbage". Today high rez textures are expected for every visible item...labor intensive for artists to create. Back then 16 color textures....or even no textures at all, just a single color value for an entire wing.

In the 90's, making games realistic was impressive to everyone. Today many "gamers" look at the complex switchology of a detailed flight sim... and get turned off at the prospect of punching buttons for an hour before getting airborne, before searching for enemy jets to shoot at. To most "gamers" its too much like school AND work... right when they are wanting an escape from both.

In the 90's a campaign was a bonus. A dynamic campaign was amazing. And developers might come up with new features. Today...we are criticizing everything about it, regardless of what's offered. And there are no new features to add...but all features MUST be included.

In the 90's we paid full retail price . By 2000 most sims could be bought in bargain bins for $10. And now its all steam sales. Which gives better revenue for the developer?

Back then a programmer and a few buddies could hammer out a complete sim from the garage, funded by working part time at Subway, or off the last hit. Today a tier 1 title requires financing of perhaps a million or much more, to support the payroll of so many employees, contractors and subcontractors and purchases from music/sound/object libraries.

Back then, every simulator was new...a new plane to fly, a new tank to drive. Today World of Tanks has hundreds of types and variants...and its free. And nearly all the planes have been flown by enthusiasts many times. Online and in campaigns. And back then, there was no "retro gaming" for milsims. Today, retro sims get makeovers upgrades and such from mods. How does a new company compete with an old product costing a dollar, that keeps being tweeked and modified to perfection?

There are many reasons for the stunted growth of mil sims. But part of it is that we are now more demanding than the creators are able to match, on increasingly larger budgets?

Personally, I would dearly love to see either a sequel or serious upgrade to DID's EF2000 2.0... one with brand new textures. But that's much more likely from mods by fans than from a company.

Could any of this change in the future? Yea. It could:

- reduce our expectations of absolute perfection

- reduce our expectations of having every single feature

- creation of new ways to make high resolution textures faster more efficiently

- creation of vehicle, terrain, object, sound, and music libraries that have "entry level" pricing options. A sim that sells 40,000 units needs to pay less to purchase what it needs, than an Xbox game with a budget of 80mil and expected sales of a billion dollars in two days. Since a small sim maker can't predict its sales success, the library fees should be on a sliding scale based on sales success, just like a movie star sometimes makes a percentage of ticket sales. The libraries could be filled with objects terrain and content made by simulation enthusiasts, some of whom currently make mods.

The core idea is make sims with modular components that a developer can quickly plug this or that into, on a modest budget that matches the size of the market for milsims. Similar to how so many addons for Microsoft FlightSim are available, both freeware and payware. And be more willing to accept minor imperfections that really don't have a deep impact on playing enjoyment. We've taken the notion of "voting with your wallet" to the point of nearly killing the market.

Alternatively...we could use the MS Flightsim community as a model to seriously empower the mod makers, extending the life of existing sim classics well beyond the original product.

But we as a community of sim enthusiasts need to do SOMETHING. Or it'll just slowly whither.


Not sure what we can do, except support developers by buying there product.
But the developers need to find ways to bring back the customers as well.
One thing the big publishing houses are doing is making Multi format games like Call of duty.
May be DCS and other developers should make there services available to Sony or Microsoft.
I believe WOT is or will be coming to Sony,s on line services via the PS4
I have brought this subject up on another forum. Seemingly the requirements are very high and would require a pretty hefty Investment by the developer. Microsoft have a minimum staffing level requirement for there third Party developers Also I would not be in favour of dumbing down such Sims As SB or DCS but a very high level of Difficulty Scalability may be an option. Most already do this though

#3912866 - 02/16/14 10:43 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Tarnsman]  
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Originally Posted By: Tarnsman

Sound (in the form of radio calls and flight and ground control interaction) is a massive immersion booster that does not require massive amounts of graphic intensity. A game that can manage an AI battlespace like MigAlley or better yet Falcon 4.0 can more than make up for some dime novel story line IMHO.

Only BoB2 has matched the quality of the radio comms from those 2. And I don't mean just the quality and variety of the voice acting, but also its functionality (e.g. telling your leader that he is clear) and the way it adapted itself to the situation. This alone already contributes a great deal to what I called "mission realism" in my previous post.


Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it, Sir?
#3912881 - 02/16/14 11:14 PM Re: What has happend to the military sim market. [Re: Johan217]  
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Originally Posted By: Johan217
Originally Posted By: Tarnsman

Sound (in the form of radio calls and flight and ground control interaction) is a massive immersion booster that does not require massive amounts of graphic intensity. A game that can manage an AI battlespace like MigAlley or better yet Falcon 4.0 can more than make up for some dime novel story line IMHO.

Only BoB2 has matched the quality of the radio comms from those 2. And I don't mean just the quality and variety of the voice acting, but also its functionality (e.g. telling your leader that he is clear) and the way it adapted itself to the situation. This alone already contributes a great deal to what I called "mission realism" in my previous post.


I forgot to give Janes FA-18 a mention here too.
There is a bridge view in sim and you can watch flight ops on deck and listen to radio traffic in game. Cool stuff.

Also, learning to distinguish your flight comms from other flights comms in the battlespace raises the "fog of war" realism a lot.

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