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#3908166 - 02/06/14 08:38 PM Large TN panels over high resolution monitors?  
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TigerL0rd Offline
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Dear SimHQ,

I would like to ask more experienced simpit builders advice about monitors and your experience with larger (cheaper) TN panels.

I'm a photographer. I currently use three 30" S-IPS monitors on my workstation in a LLL configuration. I just ordered a R3volution and intended on migrating my screens to the Obutto. However, I have concerns.

7680x1600 is a big resolution. Though I intend to get back into flight sims, the main purpose of my setup is for Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen. As such, it will probably require three 20nm GPU to render Cryengine3 at this resolution with all eye candies enabled, and I wonder whether it's worth it. In the sense of will I be close enough to the screens to notice all the details I spent a lot of money to generate?

I have never flown in sims while seated in a pit, but from the videos I watched, it seems most people prefer large TN panels (like 39-40" TV) over smaller IPS panels. Plus, while three 30" provide plenty of immersion, I imagine three 40" will immerse you that much more.

I'm sure playing a sim on a 40" 1080p TV might produce some blur or pixelated images, but how noticeable is it?

I could go with 4K 39" monitors like these but then I face the same problem as my triple IPS panel configuration: too many pixels to push. Three of these is 11520x2160, almost 25M pixels. Twice as much as my current 7680x1600 config. I cannot imagine ANY GPU config, even a Quad-20nm GPU config (still unreleased too, but they will be by the time SC launches) could render Cryengine3 in any shape or form, even at the lowest settings.

So I'm either keeping my two U3011 and U3014, or I am considering buying three 1080p TV or TN panels around 40" for added immersion and I will accept the pixelated images as price for this added immersion.

What would you guys do?

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#3908225 - 02/06/14 10:28 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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That is a large resoultion, I run a single monitor at 27" 2560 x 1440 about 3 foot in front and don't notice any pixelation. same with 24" at 1080 and a 19" at 1440x900. I wouldn't worry too much about seeing the pixels if it is more than a few feet in front.

I get immersed in my single 27" monitor, you can easily loose yourself into one screen. If the space sims support Track IR it adds greatly.

4K is recent, thus I'd stay away for now. A, performance and B, not tested in the long run. Those screens must be cheap for a reason, maybe the colours will fade very quickly or just brake?. However they are cheaper still at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DOPG...3c-20&psc=1

One option you have not considered is to go with projector(s). They can be easily mapped to a curved screen with a software solution such as Fly Elise, Warpalizer, Nthusim. We use a tripple projector system at work, and although it's not calibrated correctly yet it really looks great.

It's hard to say how Star Citizen will run at massive resolutions, but it's not out for a while. If the space sims will be the main reason for the computer and screen upgrades I'd wait to see about performance and use your current set up for now. It will still be great matrix


combtpilot.co.uk
#3908227 - 02/06/14 10:32 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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A curved screen and projectors would be my dream but I have no expertise whatsoever in that area.

Do most people adopt a DIY approach for curved screen setups? That would probably be the most immersive option of all.

#3908241 - 02/06/14 11:01 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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I believe that in the DIY field this is the most immersive option, short of actual full VR: http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll/

#3908243 - 02/06/14 11:08 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Impressive.

Are there ready-to-buy options as well you guys recommended?

#3908253 - 02/06/14 11:31 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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While it's not a straight up comparison, professional simulator setups often use multiple projectors which have at most 1920x1080 each, on wall-size screens.

It's really down to what you can live with. Don't be surprised coming from 2560x1600, full HD looks stretched and blurry, even on a 32" TV.

If you decide to go with a TV setup, there are a couple of things to watch out for:

Refresh rates(the actual framerate the device can display). Be wary of the difference between interpolated and true values; Many modern TVs will claim 200Hz or more, but this is only when using the built in frame interpolation.
I.E. the hardware calculates the difference between two frames and generates extra frames to fill the gap between them so the transition appears smooth.

When connecting to a PC however, the refresh rate often goes down to 60Hz.
This is rarely mentioned in the specs from the manufacturer(they quote the interpolated rate, called "motion flow", "clear motion" or something similar).

Refresh rates are also the main reason(for me) 4K isn't a viable alternative right now; HDMI does not support more than 30Hz(30fps) at those resolutions. In other words, things will look choppy.

Response time(The time it takes from the moment it receives an image from your graphics card to the moment it appears on screen, I.E. lag) is also important. More so in a twitch shooter of fighting game than a flight sim, but to me it's still noticeable enough to be a problem.
Again, this is something manufacturers rarely list. On average, if you turn off all the post processing(which is often done automatically when the TV detects it's connected to a PC) you should get at least 5ms, preferably lower.

As a general rule when comparing TVs in a store, know that they're usually set up specifically for in-store conditions(Most manufacturers have a special mode for this); This pretty much means everything is cranked up to maximum to appear as bright as possible under fluorescent lighting, which can give you the wrong impression when it comes to image quality and color accuracy.


If you're planning to use projectors, it's a good idea to do a price check on the lamp your chosen device needs, they're not exactly cheap. Some also last more hours than others.

#3908262 - 02/06/14 11:45 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Originally Posted By: TigerL0rd
A curved screen and projectors would be my dream but I have no expertise whatsoever in that area.

Do most people adopt a DIY approach for curved screen setups? That would probably be the most immersive option of all.



Well, I can help you there if you would want to go Projectors and a curved screen..

Yes, most do a DIY Approach to curved screens as the commercialy available ones are Very Spendy..


I currently have 3 Acer X1261P DLP Projectors and am in the process of building a DIY Curved screen from 1"x1" Steel tubing and Komotex (PVC) for a screen..


Intel i7 10700K @ 4.8GHZ / ASRock Z590 Phantom Gaming 4AC Motherboard / Asus 1080GTX OC / SoundBlaster Z / Windows 10 64bit / Reverb G2 VR Gear. / Thrustmaster Cougar + MFD's / Buttkicker Simulation / Thrustmaster Cougar
#3908272 - 02/07/14 12:02 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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A year ago I met a really nice man on the Star Citizen forums. I approached him very early on about working on a 6 DoF cockpit with his help since he seemed very knowledgeable. I learned today he was a product manager for Nthusim, so that explains the expertise smile

He recommended the BenQ W1080ST projector to me, since it's the only short throw projector that will do 1080p, but he also mentioned the short bulb lifespan (3500-4500 hours). He also recommended the Optoma ZW212ST or the ZX212ST with laser-LED based bulb systems because he says they run cooler and last significantly longer than UHP based systems. The problem is you're back down to 768p and 800p though.

So my choice is between true HD projectors but more costly maintenance costs or to settle for smaller resolutions but longer lifespan. According to my Googling, replacement bulbs are 235$ for each projector, so that would be 700$ every 2-3 years or so depending on use?

For the screen, I had thought of using PVC for the frame, but what do you use for the surface? The biggest difficulty is probably the curve?

#3908280 - 02/07/14 12:35 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Was it BHawthorne? If, so yes this guy is cool and very nice.. I bought nThusim as you will need this software if you go with a curved screen.. this is how I met BHawthorne.. I also got my ideas for my screen mount from his build over at the nthusim Forums..

For the Screen Surface as I found out I am going with Komotex (PVC).. It is a very smooth surface and can be painted.. I plan on paining it after I mount and curve it and will be getting the 6mm thick panel..

But instead of using PVC tubing I am using 1"x 1" Steel tubing..
Yes you would want a short throw projector as it makes a bigger screen at lesser distances..

I would figure out what size screen you want then you can base the throw rate on the screen size..

You can go here and use the calculator to figure out screen sizes and such:


http://www.projectorcentral.com/


Intel i7 10700K @ 4.8GHZ / ASRock Z590 Phantom Gaming 4AC Motherboard / Asus 1080GTX OC / SoundBlaster Z / Windows 10 64bit / Reverb G2 VR Gear. / Thrustmaster Cougar + MFD's / Buttkicker Simulation / Thrustmaster Cougar
#3908291 - 02/07/14 12:55 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Yup it was him.

How exactly should I approach the screen measurements? Is there a specific angle I should consider for the curve? This will affect the width of the screen.



If I read this correctly, if my screen measures 8'8" by 4'11", I'll have to place the projectors 7 feet across? Then use nThusim to adjust for warp?

That sounds easier than it must actually be.

How about mounting the projectors? How the hell do you do that so they line up perfectly with the screen?

Last edited by TigerL0rd; 02/07/14 01:10 AM.
#3908296 - 02/07/14 01:36 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Komatex is sold in 4x8' sheets. Couldn't I use a single sheet and bend it?

#3908337 - 02/07/14 03:07 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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One thing to keep in mind with the lower res projectors, you can turn them lengthwise,and since bezels aren't a problem, you can use even numbers of projectors as well (where as a multi monitor setup needs a center monitor to be useful in games). By going lengthwise you now get a 1600 vert res. (presuming that they're 1600 by 800)

I'm about a year or two off from a major upgrade to my visuals, but I'm tossing this idea around myself.


My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / GTX 1070/ 16 Gigs DDR3 RAM / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

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#3908348 - 02/07/14 03:49 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Originally Posted By: TigerL0rd
Komatex is sold in 4x8' sheets. Couldn't I use a single sheet and bend it?


Well where I sourced them at I can get a bigger sheet then that.. But yes you can bend this material for your curve you just need to build a frame for it..



Originally Posted By: TigerL0rd
Yup it was him.

How exactly should I approach the screen measurements? Is there a specific angle I should consider for the curve? This will affect the width of the screen.



If I read this correctly, if my screen measures 8'8" by 4'11", I'll have to place the projectors 7 feet across? Then use nThusim to adjust for warp?

That sounds easier than it must actually be.

How about mounting the projectors? How the hell do you do that so they line up perfectly with the screen?



Well main thing is you need to find the space first then see if what you are doing is going to work spacewise..

How many Projectors do you plan on using 1,2 or 3?? I have mine spaced rather close it really depends on how Big you make your screen and how many projectors you are going to use..

So lets start with that How many Projectors do you plan on using in your Build??

Last edited by The Nephilim; 02/07/14 04:03 AM.

Intel i7 10700K @ 4.8GHZ / ASRock Z590 Phantom Gaming 4AC Motherboard / Asus 1080GTX OC / SoundBlaster Z / Windows 10 64bit / Reverb G2 VR Gear. / Thrustmaster Cougar + MFD's / Buttkicker Simulation / Thrustmaster Cougar
#3908371 - 02/07/14 05:38 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Three

#3908416 - 02/07/14 10:14 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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ok then if you are going 3 you will not need to put them as far back.. What is the model of Projector you would like to go with..

If you know the specs basically that will help narrow it down a bit..

1. What resolution do you want ? 1080P for each projector is 720P good enough??
2. You more then likely want a short throw projector..
3. and other features like connection method??
4. Bulb Life??
5 and most important Price or your budget per projector in USD .. wink


EDIT: I found a very nice 1080P Projector and in Eco mode the bulb will last 6000hours:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-W1080ST.htm

Last edited by The Nephilim; 02/07/14 10:44 AM.

Intel i7 10700K @ 4.8GHZ / ASRock Z590 Phantom Gaming 4AC Motherboard / Asus 1080GTX OC / SoundBlaster Z / Windows 10 64bit / Reverb G2 VR Gear. / Thrustmaster Cougar + MFD's / Buttkicker Simulation / Thrustmaster Cougar
#3908651 - 02/07/14 06:34 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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I am hesitating between the BenQ W1080ST and Optoma ZW212ST (or ZX212ST). These were the two models suggested to me by Brad from Nthusim.

The first is 1080p, the other 800p, but the lamps on the BenQ cost about 250$ and the bulb life is reported as 3500-4500 hours, which is what? One year of good use, two years at best? So that's about 750$ in bulb replacement costs every 4500 hours?


Last edited by TigerL0rd; 02/07/14 06:35 PM.
#3908869 - 02/08/14 12:50 AM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Well for the BenQ in Economy mode the bulb is reported to last 6000hours so that could be an option for you as well..

Also if you buy just the Bare Bulb you can save a lot of money per bulb. it is not too hard to replace the bulb into the Housing just takes a little patience for substantial savings..

I will look to see what the bulb life and cost is for each.. I know the BenQ has a 4500-6000 hours.. will check to see what the optoma has..


I see the Optoma is the Hybrid laser type and the bulb is reported to last 20,000 hours I would go with that one myself.. I don't mind the lower res but it is at least still an HD resolution. will be less pixels to push and easier on the video card especially with the newer titles..

If you don't mind paying the high price for the Higher res and bulb replacement go with the Ben Q if you don't mind the little bit less resolution but way longer bulb life go with the Optoma..

Personally I would go with the Optoma..

Last edited by The Nephilim; 02/08/14 12:58 AM.

Intel i7 10700K @ 4.8GHZ / ASRock Z590 Phantom Gaming 4AC Motherboard / Asus 1080GTX OC / SoundBlaster Z / Windows 10 64bit / Reverb G2 VR Gear. / Thrustmaster Cougar + MFD's / Buttkicker Simulation / Thrustmaster Cougar
#3909059 - 02/08/14 05:40 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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We use the BenQ W1080ST projectors. Don't have much experience with others but they are certainly very nice and give us good images.


combtpilot.co.uk
#3909094 - 02/08/14 06:56 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. I have a lot to think about.

Has anyone on SimHQ used the Trident?

#3909141 - 02/08/14 09:44 PM Re: Large TN panels over high resolution monitors? [Re: TigerL0rd]  
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Tiger as for bulb life in projectors 2-3000 hrs are the "optimal" life norm in most units. What they don't tell you is that the bulb lasts much longer in most cases. My Dell 5100MP projector squeezed about 6000+ hrs out before the bulb went out (lasted a couple years with heavy use), I use my proj. for movies, sims and FPSs. Just make sure to do a lot of research on whatever model you go with. And I always tell people who have small spaces to set up in to consider using first person mirrors, I have an 8x10 room where my simpit is and without the mirror I only get 60-70" image, with the mirror its almost 120". And you can get a first person mirror cheap if you can find some old rear proj. TVs, thats how I picked mine up!

As for trident, damn that is expensive but pretty awesome.


I've got a bad feeling about this.....

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