#3902210 - 01/27/14 02:30 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,496
Genbrien
Stick to the plan man!
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Stick to the plan man!
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Joined: May 2009
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Quebec, Canada
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Glad Nasa is putting some love into new more huuuuuge rockets
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#3902254 - 01/27/14 04:20 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,842
Clydewinder
Mach 2 Infrared Orangutan
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Mach 2 Infrared Orangutan
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New Berlin, WI United States
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NASA needs to figure out what the heck its mission is before spending gonzodollars on a rocket. The US capabilities for manned space exploration were far greater 40 years ago than they are now. Either go for it, or close up shop for good.
It seems NASA really never really got its mojo back after Challenger.
Robots are stealing my luggage.
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#3902277 - 01/27/14 05:32 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 9,710
Legend
Legsie is such a
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Legsie is such a
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Zutphen, NL / ShangHai, China
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Forget about manned space exploration. These are (currently at least) silly useless prestige projects. The unmanned projects deliver much more useful data at a fraction of the cost. Unless you're willing to give 1% of the military budget to NASA - then it becomes feasible.
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
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#3902284 - 01/27/14 05:54 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Dart
Measured in Llamathrusts
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Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
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I'll agree that under the current slate of planned missions, manned spaceflight isn't high on the bang for bucks. Sadly, this rocket is actually a replacement for the shuttle - as it stands, the USA has no way to send or retrieve astronauts from the ISS...or to send equipment. With the big payload of this beast, they could actually make the ISS a real space platform rather than an odd research outpost.
I'll gently disagree that when it comes to actual exploration that there is more bang for the buck with unmanned missions. People are amazingly astute and incredibly flexible in their abilities when compared to robots. Delay in transmission never stops a human from continuing his tasks. Humans can say "hey, look, neat rock, let me flip it over and put it in my bag" without being told to, can autonomously prioritize and shift mission tasks, and generally do things all around better than robots.
Give a robot a drill and it will drill with it. Give a human a drill and he'll drill, scrape, dig, poke, roll the ground flat with the bit and use the motor to centrifuge rock from dirt by attaching it to a bucket.
The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events. More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.comFrom Laser: "The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
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#3902295 - 01/27/14 06:35 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Dart]
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Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 2,704
Billzilla
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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Brisbane, QLD, Australia
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I'll gently disagree that when it comes to actual exploration that there is more bang for the buck with unmanned missions. People are amazingly astute and incredibly flexible in their abilities when compared to robots. Delay in transmission never stops a human from continuing his tasks. Humans can say "hey, look, neat rock, let me flip it over and put it in my bag" without being told to, can autonomously prioritize and shift mission tasks, and generally do things all around better than robots.
Give a robot a drill and it will drill with it. Give a human a drill and he'll drill, scrape, dig, poke, roll the ground flat with the bit and use the motor to centrifuge rock from dirt by attaching it to a bucket. I'll strongly disagree. It's always a good time to go to Mars for manned exploration. A human in a suit can do in maybe an hour what would take a rover weeks. We also need to dust off Project Orion so we can get to/from other planets is a reasonable amount of time, not with the puny chemical rockets we usually use.
Out of ammo Out of energy Out of ideas Down to harsh language
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#3902341 - 01/27/14 11:28 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 167
Rask
Member
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Member
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Posts: 167
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Sadly, this rocket is actually a replacement for the shuttle - as it stands, the USA has no way to send or retrieve astronauts from the ISS...or to send equipment. SLS was never intended as a shuttle replacement. The shuttle was a Low Earth Orbit (LEO) vehicle, while SLS will be used Beyond Earth Orbit (Moon, Mars, a manned Asteroid Mission and maybe in the very far future Europa or Titan). All crew and equipment transfer to and from the ISS will be handled by private space companies under NASA contract. My personal favorite of these private corporations is the Sierra Nevada Corporation with the Dream Chaser vehicle. It will make its debut in 2016 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_ChaserCurrently two commercial US vehicles are already delivering cargo to the ISS on a regular basis. Thats the Dragon capsule by SpaceX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Capsule, which will also be ready to transport Crew in a year or two, and Cygnus by Orbital http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_%28spacecraft%29, which is currently attached to the ISS delivering its goods.
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#3902365 - 01/27/14 12:57 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,545
Dogsbd
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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SC, USA
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What a huge waste of money. SLS only exists as a means to keep space shuttle money flowing where it always flowed, to the congressional districts that made the solid rocket boosters, the external tanks etc. They've spent billions on SLS already, it won't fly before they spend billions more. And since they don’t have, and won’t have, extra money to build the 50-70 ton payloads that the SLS is supposed to launch what is the purpose? It’s like buying an expensive car that you can’t afford to drive. The first version of SLS, Block 1, that is being designed now will have a payload capacity to LEO of about 70 tons. It won’t fly before 2017 at the earliest. Meanwhile SpaceX is designing Falcon Heavy which will lift 50 tons to LEO and it will fly this year, and a cost that is literally a fraction of SLS. SLS will cost, literally, BILLIONS per launch. Billions, plural. Per launch. It is simply unsustainable. http://nasawatch.com/archives/2013/12/turning-sls-and.htmlhttp://nasawatch.com/archives/2014/01/hurry-up-and-wa.html
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” ~Benjamin Franklin
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill
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#3902544 - 01/27/14 05:53 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
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Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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The Senate Launch System. Build it because we said so, NASA.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3902938 - 01/28/14 04:40 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Jedi Master]
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 22,854
Rick.50cal
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 22,854
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The Senate Launch System. Build it because we said so, NASA.
The Jedi Master Launch it to Venus?
POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
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#3913247 - 02/17/14 07:50 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,545
Dogsbd
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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SC, USA
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Will SpaceX Super Rocket Kill NASA's 'Rocket to Nowhere'? This all begs the question: If SpaceX is going to build this gargantuan rocket on its own dime, anyway, why is the U.S. Congress forcing NASA to develop the less capable Space Launch System (SLS) for many billions of dollars more?
Earlier, SpaceX stated it could develop a rocket that would launch 150 metric tons of payload,or 20 metric tons more than the most powerful version of SLS at a fixed price development cost of $2.5 billion (an amount that comes to roughly 1.25 years of SLS's funding). Also worthy of consideration is spacecraft launch company United Launch Alliance's (ULA) proposed — but not currently pursued — economical, large launcher that would loft 140 metric tons at $5.5 billion total development cost.
Wouldn't it make more sense for NASA to buy a huge rocket from SpaceX or ULA and get much more capability for less money? If SLS were cancelled now, couldn't a small part of the resulting savings help speed up development of the large SpaceX or ULA launch vehicles — or both? In fact, this was exactly what NASA proposed to Congress before SLS was legally forced on them.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” ~Benjamin Franklin
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill
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#3913658 - 02/18/14 06:12 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
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Congress is not staffed by rocket scientists. Yet they are the ones dictating what the rocket scientists have to build.
The Jedi Master
The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#3913726 - 02/18/14 08:18 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,545
Dogsbd
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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SC, USA
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Safe Is Not an Option, by Rand E. Simberg It should be noted that NASA currently plans only two flights for the SLS — one in 2017 to demonstrate the 70-ton capability, and one with a crew in 2021, to . . . somewhere. They have said that, when operational, it may only fly every couple of years. What are the implications of that, in terms of both cost and safety?
Cost wise, it means that each flight will cost several billion dollars, at least for those first two flights. If, once in operation, it has a two- or three-billion-dollar annual budget (a reasonable guess based on Shuttle history), and it only flies every couple of years, that means that each subsequent flight will cost anywhere from four to six billion dollars.
From a safety standpoint, it means that its operating tempo will be far too slow, and its flights far too infrequent, to safely and reliably operate the system. The launch crews will be sitting around for months with little to do, and by the time the next launch occurs they’ll have forgotten how to do it, if they haven’t left from sheer boredom to seek another job.
As a last-ditch effort to try to preserve the Shuttle in 2010, some suggested that it be maintained until we had a replacement, but to fly it only once per year to save money. The worst part of such a proposal would have been the degree to which the system would have been even less safe, given that it was designed for a launch rate of at least four flights per year. It was unsafe to fly it too often (as NASA learned in the 80s as it ramped up the flight rate before Challenger), and it would be equally so to fly it too rarely. NASA’s nominal plans for SLS compound this folly, which is magnified by the fact that both internal NASA studies and independent industry ones have demonstrated that there is no need for such a vehicle to explore beyond earth orbit (existing launchers could do that job just fine, with orbital mating and operations), and it is eating up all the funding for systems, such as landers and orbital propellant storage facilities, that are necessary. All of this is just more indication that actually accomplishing things in space is the lowest priority for Congress (and unfortunately, the space agency itself, otherwise, the administrator would be more honest with the appropriators on the Hill).
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” ~Benjamin Franklin
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill
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#3913766 - 02/18/14 10:12 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Jedi Master]
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,545
Dogsbd
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,545
SC, USA
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Congress is not staffed by rocket scientists. Yet they are the ones dictating what the rocket scientists have to build. A book has been written on that very subject: The Plundering of NASA: an Exposé From a review on that book: Meticulously researched, the book describes how short-sighted decisions made by politicians in Congress have hamstrung NASA’s efforts to be the exploration agency that it was originally chartered to be. The author pulls no punches and names names. A small number of powerful politicians from both parties have used their substantial clout to force NASA into spending billions of dollars to provide jobs for their constituents rather than spending those dollars on meaningful initiatives that will actually advance America’s knowledge and capability in space.
Much of NASA has been reduced from one of the most advanced technological organizations on the planet to what is essentially a make-work program for government workers who were left with nothing to do after the end of the Shuttle program. The work they are currently doing is designing and building a massive launch vehicle called the Space Launch System (SLS) and the spacecraft it is designed to launch, the MPCV also known as Orion. This expensive combination may never result if an operational launch system. In the austere budget environment that promises to be in effect for the foreseeable future, assuming development is ever completed, the SLS will be too expensive to launch more than once or twice a year. Even those few launches are doubtful, since no actual mission for SLS has been identified to date. A review of my posts on the subject will show that I've been saying the above (see bold text) for years.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” ~Benjamin Franklin
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill
ASRock M3A770DE AM3 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard AMD Athlon II X4 640 Propus 3.0GHz Quad-Core CPU Sapphire Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 G.Skill Ripjaws Series 4GB 240-Pin SDRAM DDR3 1600 Samsung 1TB 7200 SATA 3.0Gb/s HD x2
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#3927325 - 03/20/14 06:23 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,543
Timothy
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Phoenix - Ft. Carson
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It sounds like most government programs. I can't tell you how many civilians work on our base because they served 6 years and so qualified for a job. One civilian dispatches vehicles, but I don't know why, because there is an E-5 that also does the same thing it just depends on who is at the desk at that moment.
NASA needs to be seriously scaled back now that the private sector is expanding into the area of space travel and transport. There are things that NASA can do that the private sector doesn't want to, but as it stands right now, little money is going into those areas. Rather they are blowing money on worthless projects and on political ideologies.
Keep Calm and Check CanopyThere are no ex-paratroopers, only ones off jump statusLearn Economics at: http://www.mises.orgCarthago delenda est
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#3927644 - 03/20/14 08:06 PM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,545
Dogsbd
Senior Member
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Senior Member
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SC, USA
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Meanwhile the real advances in access to space are going forward at SpaceX: SpaceX preps Mars-capable Falcon Heavy for first launch It's on the schedule, but I doubt it will launch this year. Musk has said that they are so busy building F9 cores for customer paid launches that it was going to be hard to find 3 extra cores in the schedule to use for the F9H launch this year.
“When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.” ~Benjamin Franklin
"The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill
ASRock M3A770DE AM3 AMD 770 ATX AMD Motherboard AMD Athlon II X4 640 Propus 3.0GHz Quad-Core CPU Sapphire Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 G.Skill Ripjaws Series 4GB 240-Pin SDRAM DDR3 1600 Samsung 1TB 7200 SATA 3.0Gb/s HD x2
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#3927807 - 03/21/14 04:32 AM
Re: NASA wants a new rocket
[Re: Timothy]
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,543
Timothy
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,543
Phoenix - Ft. Carson
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Private sector wins again.
Keep Calm and Check CanopyThere are no ex-paratroopers, only ones off jump statusLearn Economics at: http://www.mises.orgCarthago delenda est
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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