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#3901953 - 01/26/14 03:42 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) ***** [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
I'd like to know this too. I thought the SA-10 would be a monopulse radar, but I don't understand how you can manually track a target using a monopulse radar.

I'm confused.


It has a phase modulated monopulse radar, with 3 antenna groups.
(FA-110, FA-130, FA-140)


While the analogue, single target tracking monopulse sets are precisely keeping the target in the center of the pencil beam, the digitally aimed pencil beam is following in steps rather than continuously tracking.
Here the monopulse method is used to decide, where the target is located from the center of the beam.


Last edited by Hpasp; 01/26/14 05:04 PM.

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#3903110 - 01/28/14 02:51 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3904278 - 01/30/14 01:38 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Failed launch....


#3905856 - 02/02/14 01:09 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Vietnam is missing...

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/02/14 01:13 PM.

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Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3905965 - 02/02/14 05:34 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3905988 - 02/02/14 06:24 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


I guess that means S-300 PS is not really effective at those days...

#3906062 - 02/02/14 08:33 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
I guess that means S-300 PS is not really effective at those days...


I cannot see ANY situation, where I would like to sit inside of an (S-25M, S-60, SA-75M, S-75M, S-125M, S-200V, ZSU-23M, 2K11M, 2K12M, 9K31, 9K33, 9K35, MIM-14, MIM-23)* instead of the F-2 cabin of the S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) system.

All the collected experiences of the battles between 1960~'80 were incorporated into THIS SYSTEM.
(everything you could ever wish for, playing SAMSIM situations)

Even the US Wild Weasels called them as the "Double Digit SAMs", to differentiate it, as a completely other league.

*except MIM-104 biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/02/14 09:14 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3906097 - 02/02/14 09:22 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
I guess that means S-300 PS is not really effective at those days...


One comment from the Hungarian forum...
...it is somehow better to kill Chinese fighters over Kazakhstan inbound of Russia.

biggrin biggrin biggrin

Completely agree.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3906120 - 02/02/14 10:28 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
All the collected experiences of the battles between 1960~'80 were incorporated into THIS SYSTEM.
(everything you could ever wish for, playing SAMSIM situations)


I want to find out!!!! biggrin

#3906332 - 02/03/14 11:25 AM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

I cannot see ANY situation,....


SA-2E giving target acquisition data for SA-10 against slow drone against a wind.....

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

All the collected experiences of the battles between 1960~'80 were incorporated into THIS SYSTEM.
(everything you could ever wish for, playing SAMSIM situations)

Even the US Wild Weasels called them as the "Double Digit SAMs", to differentiate it, as a completely other league.

*except MIM-104 biggrin



'80 was before >24 years..... It seems than SAM-s are a weapon of yesterday (SA-2 against fighters; SA-6 against ALE decoys; SA-10 against ~0 radial speed targets or ALE)....

#3906540 - 02/03/14 08:03 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: piston79]  
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Yes, but in 80's its a very advanced weapon. But in the present we don't know what the real capabilitys of the most modern aircrafts or SAMs.

I really don't know the f-22 is really a ghost, or the S-400 could fight with it. confused

#3907679 - 02/05/14 07:44 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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^^^^

That is a sort of tricky thing to answer. The S400 would eventually detect the F-22, yes. But how far?

The F-22 can release 8 SDBs from 50-60nm to bombard the SAM with, and it can also jam it. The small radar signature of the fighter also means the missile seeker will have problems.

What if there is more than 1 F-22, incoming on multiple angles, and support jammers lessening the sensitivity of the S400?

Of course, S400 will not be alone and will also be equipped with decoys to help it fight, and assistance from own air force etc.


--
44th VFW
#3907876 - 02/06/14 08:22 AM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: GrayGhost]  
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And those eight SDBs aren't stealthy, and because they're just gliding they're not fast and they can't sneak up on the SAM site at low level. They'll approach the site at medium altitude, slowly. They're sitting ducks, very easy to shoot down.

Though they only cost $90,000. So I guess you could just keep releasing hundreds of them till the enemy runs out of expensive missiles.

#3907880 - 02/06/14 08:51 AM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Not necessarily expensive... Pantsir and Tor should be there to take out those bombs. Assuming enemy is able to pinpoint the location of SAM site.

Last edited by Vympel; 02/06/14 08:53 AM.
#3907888 - 02/06/14 10:10 AM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Hpasp]  
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I have my doubts regarding the feasibility of SDBs to be shot down in-flight by any air defence system (being it S-400, Pantsir, Tor, etc...). SDBs (Small diameter bombs) like the name indicates are very small bombs which means they have a very small RCS, which should make them "stealth" or "almost stealth".

Besides I have yet to see any defence system to be effective at shooting down any smart weapons (Paveway or JDAMs for example) specially outside a "non-controlled" environment (i.e. a test environment) or resuming in a real combat scenario/environment.
Anyway even if I'm proven to be wrong with my statements above, one can also use a F-35 equipped with JSOW (which have a similar range of a SDB and it's truly a stealth weapon) to engage those S-400 (or any other air defence system for that matter).

#3907889 - 02/06/14 10:28 AM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: ricnunes]  
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You've forgetting the most important factor in whether a radar can detect a target or not. Range!

If you halve the range to a target, you increase the received radar reflection strength by sixteen times!

If you quarter the range to a target, you increase the received radar reflection strength by 256 times!

Basically the SDB has to get close enough to the S-400 that the SAM site won't be able to react in time to the SDB before it hits the site. I don't know for sure how fast SDBs are, but I guess they are slow, they're just glide bombs. So maybe 200m/s. So even 4km away would give the S-400 twenty seconds to react. At 4km the radar reflections of even a small stealthy target are going to be huge and easy to detect.

#3907902 - 02/06/14 12:09 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: ricnunes]  
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ePap Offline
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes
I have my doubts regarding the feasibility of SDBs to be shot down in-flight by any air defence system (being it S-400, Pantsir, Tor, etc...). SDBs (Small diameter bombs) like the name indicates are very small bombs which means they have a very small RCS, which should make them "stealth" or "almost stealth".

Besides I have yet to see any defence system to be effective at shooting down any smart weapons (Paveway or JDAMs for example) specially outside a "non-controlled" environment (i.e. a test environment) or resuming in a real combat scenario/environment.
Anyway even if I'm proven to be wrong with my statements above, one can also use a F-35 equipped with JSOW (which have a similar range of a SDB and it's truly a stealth weapon) to engage those S-400 (or any other air defence system for that matter).


How comes that JSOW is a stealth weapon ?
I can assure you that TOR-M1 can easily wipe out them including Paveway and JDAM !

#3908065 - 02/06/14 06:39 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: ePap]  
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Originally Posted By: ePap
How comes that JSOW is a stealth weapon ?


According to several sources. Here's an example:
http://www.deagel.com/Standoff-Weapons/AGM-154A-JSOW_a001153001.aspx

"JSOW also features low-signature/stealth design to engage actively defended targets"

Also by looking closely at the JSOW airframe, it seems clear (at least to me) that it has a stealth design.


Originally Posted By: ePap

I can assure you that TOR-M1 can easily wipe out them including Paveway and JDAM !


Also according to the Russians, the Mig-29 should be able to wipe out F-16s, F/A-18s and even F-15s - reality was very diferent tho!

#3908073 - 02/06/14 06:49 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
You've forgetting the most important factor in whether a radar can detect a target or not. Range!

If you halve the range to a target, you increase the received radar reflection strength by sixteen times!

If you quarter the range to a target, you increase the received radar reflection strength by 256 times!

Basically the SDB has to get close enough to the S-400 that the SAM site won't be able to react in time to the SDB before it hits the site. I don't know for sure how fast SDBs are, but I guess they are slow, they're just glide bombs. So maybe 200m/s. So even 4km away would give the S-400 twenty seconds to react. At 4km the radar reflections of even a small stealthy target are going to be huge and easy to detect.


No, I didn't forget about range factor and that any Stealth object can be detected by any radar when it's close enough to the radar source.
I also didn't say that the S-400 (or other air defence systems, BTW) could never shot down SDBs, actually I believe it can, at least in theory but only in "ideal" conditions and in wartime conditions are usually very far from "ideal".

#3908099 - 02/06/14 07:18 PM Re: S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B Grumble) [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Originally Posted By: ePap
How comes that JSOW is a stealth weapon ?


According to several sources. Here's an example:
http://www.deagel.com/Standoff-Weapons/AGM-154A-JSOW_a001153001.aspx

"JSOW also features low-signature/stealth design to engage actively defended targets"

Also by looking closely at the JSOW airframe, it seems clear (at least to me) that it has a stealth design.


Originally Posted By: ePap

I can assure you that TOR-M1 can easily wipe out them including Paveway and JDAM !


Also according to the Russians, the Mig-29 should be able to wipe out F-16s, F/A-18s and even F-15s - reality was very diferent tho!


A low cost glider with low-signature (so called stealth designed) to be difficult target for TOR-M1 ?

I would love my country to have a possible threat with the same analysis/approach like you do .

My confidence for TOR-m1 is not coming from Russians but from the real capabilities of the systems which we use in real world for more than 12 years ...

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