Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#3899863 - 01/22/14 07:23 PM Formation Flying advice needed *****  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
JamesL Offline
Junior Member
JamesL  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
Today I decided to skip auto pilot and try to maintain formation the old fashioned way. After an hours flight I am exhausted! I spent every moment eyes glued on the lead plane trying to find that perfect balance of throttle & pitch but still kept drifting out of station. How on earth does one do it! Any tips?

#3899869 - 01/22/14 07:31 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 317
Lanzfeld113 Offline
Member
Lanzfeld113  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 317
PA, USA
Separate a little.

Correct early...often.

Don't sweat it.

Scan. You don't want to die holding perfect formation.

#3899873 - 01/22/14 07:38 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: Lanzfeld113]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 864
Hauksbee Offline
Member
Hauksbee  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 864
DeForest, Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Lanzfeld113

Scan. You don't want to die holding perfect formation.

Tho' there's probably a Col. Blimp back at Divisional HQ who feels it's worth losing a pilot, or two, now and then, as long as the formations look smart.


In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
#3899877 - 01/22/14 07:45 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 77
BrianRubin Offline
Junior Member
BrianRubin  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 77
Los Angeles, CA
James, I too am having the damnedest time with formation flying, so thanks for this.

#3899882 - 01/22/14 07:55 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 147
Falcon988 Offline
Member
Falcon988  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 147
It's a skill, but I highly recommend it. Makes the time flying to and from target go by fast, because your mind and your hands are always, always busy.

It's like driving a car. You're constantly making small corrections on the wheel, even long after you stop noticing. To be honest, formation flying becomes second nature on most engines. The real fun is doing it in a rotary that doesn't have a throttle.

As mentioned though, perfect formation flying is for friendly lines. Once you hit the front or enter Hun territory, give yourself enough room that you can scan the skies constantly without worrying about colliding with your wingman. I've been bounced and killed because I was too busy trying to hold formation and trusting that my flight leader would see the enemy first. If your flight leader is James McCudden that's usually a safe bet, but they are not all equal and, in the end, it's your own arse up there.

One second I was holding formation quite peacefully, the next I was on fire. That was no fun. Also saw at least one of other of my squadron's planes taking hits, but I didn't have much time to look before my wing fell off. You can die fast, so really, REALLY, it's more important to scan the skies.

Last edited by Falcon988; 01/22/14 07:58 PM.

JAVITO1986 on the CombatAce forums!
#3899891 - 01/22/14 08:12 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,808
Adger Offline
Senior Member
Adger  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,808
Excellent post James,and another great writeup from Falcon (Javito).....like the guys have said Dont sweat it to much,keep a little distance,and keep those eyes Alert biggrin


They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.
#3899922 - 01/22/14 08:47 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Blazing88s Offline
Junior Member
Blazing88s  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
Canada
TAC with the instructor help on works wonders for flying in formation. Otherwise I would not bother and autopilot it until not needed. I understand others would frown on this... Just my two cents.


System specs:
Cyberpower
Asus M5A97, AMD FX 8150 eight core, 3.6 GHz (stock)
16GB DDR3 RAM
ASUS Nvidia Geforce GTX 650 Ti, 1024 MB, GDDR5
Asus 24.1" ProArt PA248Q, optimal A+ IPS panel
1920x1200 LED-backlit Monitor 16:10 aspect ratio, 6ms P-IPS
Window 7 Home Premium 64x, Service Pack 1
#3899934 - 01/22/14 09:04 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 77
BrianRubin Offline
Junior Member
BrianRubin  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 77
Los Angeles, CA
I've been using the TAC to help fly in formation, and it is invaluable, but I have a hard time staying there for too long. More practice is needed, I s'pose. wink

#3899960 - 01/22/14 09:59 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
JamesL Offline
Junior Member
JamesL  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 38
Guys, thanks for your tips. I'll try not to sweat it, forget about perfect air show formations and scan more. I'll try the TAC as well. Flying like this is actually a lot like learning to drive, I remember how awkward I was in my lessons & now it's just instinctive. It's practice that counts.

Another thing (which may be like a bad workman blaming his tools!) is my joystick. I'm using an old SideWinder Force Feedback 2 which works fine in windows 7 but hasn't got any calibration software. It's got no dead zone and is so sensitive that even moving my thumb to a button can alter the bank/pitch of my plane a few degrees. I'm not sure how to overcome this apart from buying a new device which is a shame as its otherwise a damm fine joystick.

((update: found out how to calibrate the joystick in win 7 and its made formation flying a lot easier! Also quite glad to see the AI pilots of mediocre skill in my flight also not keeping station. Nice touch of realism!))

Last edited by JamesL; 01/22/14 11:39 PM.
#3900318 - 01/23/14 03:28 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
nibbio Offline
Member
nibbio  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
Italy
Originally Posted By: JamesL
((update: found out how to calibrate the joystick in win 7 and its made formation flying a lot easier! Also quite glad to see the AI pilots of mediocre skill in my flight also not keeping station. Nice touch of realism!))


You can set deadzone and linearity of each axis in WOFF itself in the Workshop.

I found that formation flying gets much easier if the elevator is trimmed for horizontal flight. Auto-trim is also useful to trim the elevator quickly on some aircraft that require extreme elevator trim.

#3900384 - 01/23/14 05:20 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: nibbio]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 997
HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
Just shoot me...
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 997
Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
Originally Posted By: nibbio


You can set deadzone and linearity of each axis in WOFF itself in the Workshop.

I found that formation flying gets much easier if the elevator is trimmed for horizontal flight. Auto-trim is also useful to trim the elevator quickly on some aircraft that require extreme elevator trim.


Now this axis settings in WOFF is new to me, I'll have a look - Thanks!

I'm wondering about your second statement - these beauties didn't have trim in real life did they? Or, I believe, the mechanic could apply a fixed level of trim on the ground, then you are stuck with it. So if you need "extreme" trim, is something wrong?


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX1080Ti/ 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields BH&H2 (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#3900451 - 01/23/14 06:49 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: HumanDrone]  
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
nibbio Offline
Member
nibbio  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 676
Italy
Originally Posted By: HumanDrone
[quote=nibbio]
I'm wondering about your second statement - these beauties didn't have trim in real life did they? Or, I believe, the mechanic could apply a fixed level of trim on the ground, then you are stuck with it. So if you need "extreme" trim, is something wrong?


With my setup, without trim, some planes require constant stick pressure to fly straight and level. Your mileage may vary.

I'm however quite sure that there's nothing wrong with the planes. By "extreme trim" I meant above 10%-15%, as per the degree of trim that is reported on the screen as a percentage. I suppose that 100% would be half the total excursion of the control surface (total excursion would from -100% to +100%). Since each key press modifies trim by something like .5%, it's a lot of key presses.
OTOH when you engage auto-trim, trim is set automatically, adjusting to the current position of the stick, so it's much quicker. Then you can disengage auto-trim and fly keeping the resulting trim setting. At least that's how I use it.

AFAIK you are correct in saying that WWI aircraft generally had no trim available, however the presence of trim in WOFF is very welcome. I don't believe in pursuing realism to the point of getting carpal tunnel syndrome smile

In ROF you have to adjust the response curve of the joystick to compensate. Some may argue that it's more realistic, however, since of course you have to be able to do it in flight, I find it equivalent (just a little more of a hassle since you have to call up a menu, etc.)

#3900500 - 01/23/14 08:10 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: JamesL]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,138
Polovski Offline
Polovski  Offline

Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 8,138
Many craft were configured in such a way that they would want to climb initially, like the Camel at full load of fuel its nose would pull up then eventually as the fuel was exhausted after a long mission the nose would want to drop. You have to remember many of these craft were intentionally configured for valid reasons.
But yeah you can trim them out. Some craft like the SE5a had elevator trim the pilot could set, others had some that could only be used on the ground, some none except a bungee strapped to the stick.

Many pilots commented that some craft were tiring to fly due to requiring fairly hefty long term pressure or hand on the stick for the whole mission. Some didn't need much like the BE2 very stable but not good for fighting in of course.


Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#3900520 - 01/23/14 08:56 PM Re: Formation Flying advice needed [Re: Polovski]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 394
yaan98 Offline
Member
yaan98  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 394
Originally Posted By: Polovski
Many craft were configured in such a way that they would want to climb initially, like the Camel at full load of fuel its nose would pull up then eventually as the fuel was exhausted after a long mission the nose would want to drop. You have to remember many of these craft were intentionally configured for valid reasons.
But yeah you can trim them out. Some craft like the SE5a had elevator trim the pilot could set, others had some that could only be used on the ground, some none except a bungee strapped to the stick.

Many pilots commented that some craft were tiring to fly due to requiring fairly hefty long term pressure or hand on the stick for the whole mission. Some didn't need much like the BE2 very stable but not good for fighting in of course.


A bit OT, but an interesting discussion.

So, what you're basically saying is that the planes fly like they should and adjusting trim on them is counterproductive (i.e. not historical) and I should just fly them the way they are in the game to maintain their historical behavior.

Last edited by yaan98; 01/23/14 09:00 PM.

Moderated by  Polovski 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
CD WOFF
by Britisheh. 03/28/24 08:05 PM
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0