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#3898721 - 01/20/14 07:58 PM WWI re-evaluated.  
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My 'Waiting for Clod' thread: http://tinyurl.com/bqxc9ee

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#3898737 - 01/20/14 08:31 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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Probably the stupidest thing I've ever read.


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#3898740 - 01/20/14 08:35 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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I don't know, you sure you haven't seen some threads here that would compare?



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#3898745 - 01/20/14 08:42 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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Coming from the BBC I was expecting some serious leftist revisionism going on but that stuff is out there already.

Regards

Mailman

Last edited by mailman; 01/20/14 08:43 PM.
#3898763 - 01/20/14 09:16 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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in the Cockpit of whatever I a...
care to explain whats so stupid in this article?


Experience of battle divides those who talk about nothing but the anticipation from those who talk about everything but the memory of it.
#3898768 - 01/20/14 09:23 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: BlackLion]  
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Originally Posted By: BlackLion
care to explain whats so stupid in this article?


It's the facts dammit! Why did they have to use facts! biggrin

#3898776 - 01/20/14 09:51 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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Plenty of those issues have been brought up in books.

Mud, Blood and Poppycock

This book is one I really like, and gives a very good rundown of WWI myths and their debunking.

#3898783 - 01/20/14 10:15 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: mailman]  
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Originally Posted By: mailman
Coming from the BBC I was expecting some serious leftist revisionism going on but that stuff is out there already.

Regards

Mailman


But how much of that stuff is known to the common bloke on the street?


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#3898869 - 01/21/14 02:43 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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The article forgot to mention one of the myths about WWI,


That Germany was entirely responsible for the start of WWI.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3898878 - 01/21/14 03:05 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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The fallout from WW1 (for example the end of the Turkish Empire, the Balfour Declaration, the recognition of the House of Saud and the Kingdom of Saud etc. etc.) is still being felt.

It may be too much to say WWI has not yet ended, but if you look at the war in the east, since the fall of the Austrio Hungarian Empire and the Turkish Empire, the unrest has been essentially on and off since 1914.


In centuries to come, historians may not look at the last 100 years as a series of discrete wars, but rather one long conflict.

#3898889 - 01/21/14 03:57 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted By: PanzerMeyer
The article forgot to mention one of the myths about WWI,


That Germany was entirely responsible for the start of WWI.


That is only partly mythical. I would say that Germany was primarily responsible for starting WWI. I think Imperial Germany was the only country involved that actually wanted a war.


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#3898905 - 01/21/14 04:20 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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Umm. No. Everyone was spoiling for a (albeit local) fight... This was the primary reason for all the convoluted alliances ~ an attempt to make it unthinkable.

The balkan states *really* wanted war ~ everyone else would have sat out if their commitments hadn't been tested by their allies.

I'd really recommend the book "War 1914: Punishing the Serbs" for a view of the conflict drawn directly from the UK archives - the various reports, memos, notes on conversations and other political manoeuvrings. It is far from clear that Germany even remotely wanted war... though it could perhaps have been a little more assertive right at the beginning after a while the momentum was such that no country could have backed down and saved face... and the young men and their families suffered as a consequence of that pride and inflexibility. It is hard to see how anyone could have bent enough to have avoided it though, especially in light of modern wars that are waged with equally flimsy pretexts.

#3898908 - 01/21/14 04:25 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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+1 Lieste.

WW1 is a much more complex war than most people believe it to be.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3898914 - 01/21/14 04:40 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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Well let me re-phrase that, yes the Balkan states were spoiling for a fight. But Germany was the only major power that wanted a war. Russia didn't, France didn't, Britain didn't, Italy didn't. Germany was the primary factor in turning a regional conflict into a world war. IMO.


When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. ~Benjamin Franklin

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#3898916 - 01/21/14 04:46 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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France desperately wanted to get Alsace Lorraine back and to avenge their loss in the Franco Prussian War.

Italy prostituted itself to the highest bidder so they dont count.

Russia saw itself as the "big brother" to the Slavs in the Balkans and would go to war if those interests were threatened.
Russia also wanted war against the Ottoman Empire since they were seen as the primary threat to their interests in the Balkans.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3898920 - 01/21/14 04:54 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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There was a documentary named The Century narrated by Peter Jennings back in 1999.

In it, Mr. Jennings said something to the effect that up to that time in 1999, everything that has happened in the past 80 years, was the results of World War I.

I have a copy of that documentary.

I need to find it and quote what Mr. Jennings said because not only did it make sense, it left an impact on me.

EDIT:

I found it in its entirety on YouTube and now it's just a matter of finding the correct episode where Mr. Jennings said it.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC8D9DC28C3EC5223


What's in the box? C'mon, what's in the boooox?
#3898938 - 01/21/14 06:00 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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I watched this ten-part documentary a couple of weeks ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0D-ltuyZFc It is very informative and I learned quite a lot of what I had been taught in history class in school was only partly correct. I highly recommend watching this series if you want to understand more of the causes of WWI.


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#3899012 - 01/21/14 11:33 AM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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concerning books, I suggest this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-War-that-End...war+ended+peace

followed by this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Sleepwalkers...ds=sleepwalkers

much interesting stuff there to find....


Experience of battle divides those who talk about nothing but the anticipation from those who talk about everything but the memory of it.
#3899062 - 01/21/14 02:26 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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France and Russia both had wars of conquest in mind. Austro Hungary was struggling to hold together it's empire, and war within the Balkans was probably an eventual certainty... it did little to attempt to avert this course though.

If *either* France or Russia went to war, Germany & Austro-Hungary would have been embroiled with both. There was no flexibility in the accepted terms of their treaties. Britain was under treaty obligations to support Belgian Neutrality, but gave Germany signals that it wouldn't support France and Russia against Germany - while simultaneously giving France soothing noises of support.

Britain was probably the least interested in war in Europe, happy as it was with owning an empire that the sun never set upon. We did *far* too little too late to avert war though - wishful thinking has little practical use. It is also massively disingenuous to accuse anyone else of having colonial ambitions, when the British Empire was larger than *everyone else's* overseas interests several times over.

#3899065 - 01/21/14 02:31 PM Re: WWI re-evaluated. [Re: RedToo]  
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Or in other words:

"No, the thing is: The way I see it, these days there's a war on, right? and, ages ago, there wasn't a war on, right? So, there must have been a moment when there not being a war on went away, right? and there being a war on came along. So, what I want to know is: How did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs?"

"Do you mean "How did the war start?""

"The war started because of the vile Hun and his villainous empire- building."

"George, the British Empire at present covers a quarter of the globe, while the German Empire consists of a small sausage factory in Tanganiki. I hardly think that we can be entirely absolved of blame on the imperialistic front."


"Oh, no, sir, absolutely not."

[aside]

"Mad as a bicycle!"


"I heard that it started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry."

"I think you mean it started when the Archduke of Austro-Hungary got shot."

"Nah, there was definitely an ostrich involved, sir."

"Well, possibly. But the real reason for the whole thing was that it was too much effort not to have a war."

"By Gum, this is interesting. I always loved history. The Battle of Hastings, Henry VIII and his six knives, all that."

"You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war."


"But, this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?"

"Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan."

"What was that, sir?"

"It was bollocks."

"So the poor old ostrich died for nothing then."

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