I'm not an expert in electronics, physics, radar or anything like that.
I did think of ways the accuracy could be improved, some of the ways you mentioned. But I don't know if they are used in reality. It's why I asked for more information.
The systems in SAM Simulator seem too accurate to me as well. But I'm not sure if it's because we're guiding missiles more accurately than can be done in historical reality, or it's because targets do not try to dodge or avoid missiles. Or both reasons!
In some of the Vietnam era missions in SAM Sim, I can shoot down 10+ aircraft very easily. I managed to shoot down 13 aircraft a few times. This is WAY more than could be managed in reality.
And I can shoot down Gary Powers with nearly 100% reliability in the 1960 mission with one missile. In reality didn't they fire 12 missiles?
SAM Simulator seems much too accurate.
Disagree.
There is a manual describing the guidance accuracy of the Volhov. Its more than 70 pages, so I would not copy it here. The maximum error in the guidance system at 56km is less than 20m. (Its on the history.pvo site)
Do not think digitally. The target is measured by several successive beams. (thus is why the same target is visible on several beams)
During live firing exercises against maneuvering supersonic drones, always only one missile was launched by one battery (and usually killed the target).
SAMSIM is realistic in that sense... ... its unrealistic that allows YOU to use Volhov against Powers and Vietnamese targets.
Exactly this is the reason why I hate "Allow non historic scenario" (unrealistic) mode of the SAMSIM. (just imagine the same situations with Vega)
Maybe I will have to remove it from the next version onwards*...
*just a joke
Last edited by Hpasp; 07/23/1307:14 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Could you say the name of the file, maybe I'll manage to translate some about angle measurement?
Quote:
Exactly this is the reason why I hate "Allow non historic scenario" (unrealistic) mode of the SAMSIM. (just imagine the same situations with Vega)
Maybe I will have to remove it from the next version onwards...
Only over my dead body!.....
I am not going to explain widely why you should keep this option, just the main reasons:
1. Some of the systems where available at this period of time, just not delivered to the frontline ("Volknov" and "Neva" at Vietnam, "Dvina" at Serbia)
2. A total lack of scenarios at all...
3. Comparing system performance at identical/same situations (like monopulse "Ganef" in Egypt/Serbia/Vietnam)....
If this option will be removed, I'll reconsider my future participation in this community (discouraged already by some tweaks in Sam Sim future development, which I am accepting as deviations from the "Realistic to the switch" line, IMO)....
P.S. Here how the angle error was calculated (comparing the areas from the target return divided by the strobe):
Thanks for this picture, it nicely shows how it works.
Also problem that we has the latest version of Dvina simulated, not the one that was used in Vietnam. During every 5 years, new technical bulletins introduced new features.
As our is the last version, it already modified to counter the system weaknesses observed in Vietnam.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Thank you, that was the information I was looking for! This is a great forum, so many very knowledgeable people!
So, the reasons I can kill the U-2 with one missile is because we're using SA-2F and not SA-2A?
The reason I can kill 13 bombers over Vietnam in one mission, is because they're using only noise jamming and not modulated noise jamming. And no chaff?
The reason I can get so many kills in other missions, is because they don't try to avoid missiles?
Thank you, that was the information I was looking for! This is a great forum, so many very knowledgeable people!
So, the reasons I can kill the U-2 with one missile is because we're using SA-2F and not SA-2A?
The reason I can kill 13 bombers over Vietnam in one mission, is because they're using only noise jamming and not modulated noise jamming. And no chaff?
The reason I can get so many kills in other missions, is because they don't try to avoid missiles?
- On the earlier systems, there were no APP (had to use paper charts), only had 1 missile guidance method selector (all three missiles used the same method), no K guidance method, long missile preparation time, no possibility to shoot low flying targets at all.
- Till the middle of 60's there were no attached P12/18 radars, just the plotting board.
- You has the possibility to replay the situations in a pleasant time, without life dangering threat. (Select one SAM battery around Hanoi, stick to it, and try to play all scenarios sequentially, each night at 2am only one, and see if your battery would survive...)
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
(Select one SAM battery around Hanoi, stick to it, and try to play all scenarios sequentially, each night at 2am only one, and see if your battery would survive...)
Exactly this is the reason why I hate "Allow non historic scenario" (unrealistic) mode of the SAMSIM. (just imagine the same situations with Vega)
Maybe I will have to remove it from the next version onwards*...
*just a joke
im sure that this sentence was a joke ! one deadly joke for samsim users ! if one days hpasp decide to remove this object from samsim we cant compare between our systems in one scenario ! so that is my reason for non historical scenario should be ON for example we can compare between sa-2 and sa-4 performance at hanoi night 8 ! non-historical scenario allowed to users for comparing between the systems in one scenario
but i am in shock till now that why you do not put sa-5 in non-historical scenarios ? what is your logical reason ! if this happend done ... we will have deadly hobby for next 6 months in samsim
SA-75M was still not the system that engaged Gary Powers' U-2, and a lot of the missiles were supposedly directed at the interceptor in mistake. Readiness problems were also cited.
Taken from Manual Supplement by Vintorez:- Rab-ot-VM is of some use when shooting at low-altitude jamming targets. A “chaff corridor”, which detonates your missiles before the target, is conceivable only for high-altitude targets. In such case, do not forget to switch radio fuse 100-m sensitivityon.
Video shows imitation shooting at the low-altitude jamming target [USU NLC + RAB OT VM + TT]. (Ideal conditions) No hits, if the fuse in the switch "USU NLC"/"ZAGRUB RV" The average miss distance -40m. I'm doing something wrong?
PS While I use "USU ZAGRUB RV" instead of "USU NLC" - it works, but is it right? [example:- asuluk; target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating jamming Tornado, h=100m. - average miss distance: 40-80m. "killed by SAM"]
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Not sure it is for this topic, but didn't find a better one:
Click to reveal..
October 27, 1962 S- 75 shot down a U- 2 over Cuba
In 1962, at the height of the Cuban missile crisis 27 October was recorded eight violations of Cuban airspace by American planes . Division Major IM Gerchenova missile launch S- 75 "Desna" knocked down at an altitude of 21,000 m spy plane U.S. Air Force U- 2 . Head developer of the complex - KB- 1 (now of " GSKB " Almaz-Antey ").
More about the event from the archives of "Vestnik PVO " : A KENNEDY suspects KHRUSHCHOV ... Who ordered to shoot down U.S. spy plane over Cuba ?
Major USAF Rudolph Anderson , raising the morning of October 27 , 1962 in high-altitude air reconnaissance " Lockheed " U- 2 , did not know that it was his last flight , in fact - this is the last day of his life . At 8:00 local time, he crossed the border of the Cuban Air Force , and after 1 hour and 20 minutes body manned aircraft shook them a heavy blow . Anderson is the second blow did not feel ... Falling , U- 2 fell to pieces .
Dozens of versions over the past 38 years, expressed about the drama . The most common - spy plane shot down by Cuban anti-aircraft gunners . President John F. Kennedy was convinced that the plane shot down on the orders of Nikita Khrushchev . But this is not true .
International assistance
In June 1961, Moscow agreed to provide military assistance to the government of Fidel Castro , the goal - to prevent the U.S. invasion of Cuba . General Staff of the Armed Forces of the USSR developed an operation for the transfer of military units and medium-range missiles R-12 and R-14 on the revolutionary island. Commander of the Group of Soviet Forces in Cuba was appointed Gen. Issa Pliev . Among other things, went and 6 anti-aircraft missile and artillery regiments , summarized in two divisions .
Americans could not know that the Soviet antiaircraft calculations arrived on the island . Their planes invaded Cuban airspace , sometimes they reached SAM positions that are " silent ."
However, by October 25-26, setting difficult.
Of cryptogram from Havana to Moscow : "Since October 23 , more frequent incursions of American planes in Cuban airspace and flights over the island at various altitudes , including at altitudes of 150-200 meters. Only for 26 October were more than eleven such flights .
Cuban friends think inevitably invasion and bombing of military targets . 26.H.62 Resident of the State Security Committee of the Council of Ministers of the USSR . "
American pilots requested their command posts on the start bombing plaintext . Then Fidel Castro ordered his armed forces to shoot down without warning all enemy warplanes appearing over Cuba . Notify the General Pliev was raised . Late in the evening of 26 October, he made ​​a decision in the case of strikes by U.S. aircraft on Soviet troops to use all available means of defense and sent a coded telegram to the Minister of Defense Marshal Rodion Malinovsky . In Moscow, the decision adopted .
October 27, 1962
Morning ... for antiaircraft missile battalion , commanded by Major Ivan Gerchenov ( they carried on combat duty in the town of Banes , 180 km from the higher command post ) , began with the strongest tropical downpour . Here it is appropriate to refer to the story of Nicholas Antonets participant in the events ( in October 1962 captain, chief of staff of anti-aircraft missile division ) : "Yesterday we received a secret coded telegram : be ready for combat operations , expected American invasion . We were allowed to be aired include station . Everyone felt that the war is possible . at ten o'clock in the area under the radar troops we have evidence that the American Guantanamo in our direction moving U.S. aircraft - goal number 33. Immediately station found him . at signal " - another's " response not followed. Height - 22 kilometers ...
In the cockpit - complete silence , frozen in anticipation with me battalion commander Ivan Gerchenov commander Vasily Gorchakov radio batteries , guidance officer Alexander Ryapenko operators . Goal taken by hand, then on the automatic tracking , here it is - in the area of ​​start-up. The silence was interrupted by the voice of Major Gerchenova : " What do we do ? Shoot ? " Looked at me. I kept in touch with KP part , so immediately asked when will be the team to destruction. Then repeated the request . I said, " Wait , the team is about to go ." And then : " Destroy target number 33 , three, turn." This means - three rockets should go one by one in six seconds . We have turned out differently.
Ryapenko reported: "First , start" . Startovapa first rocket . Have a seizure . Again silence , you can hear a panting operators. Her voice broke the officer's guidance : "The goal - a meeting ." And the purpose of flying. And then suddenly remembered Gerchenov instead of three missiles we let one . It turned out, they began to shoot single . Addicted duel. Launched the second missile . On the radar screen is seen as two points closer together - and the purpose of the rocket . Here they are merged into one , and a new report Ryapenko , this time joyous " Second - undermining , target is destroyed , bearing 322 , range 12 kilometers." Analysis showed that the plane was shot down a missile in the first 9:00 of 20 minutes, but was still gliding flight . From the second U- 2 rocket fell apart into small pieces.
In place of the crash has left our political officer Major Grechanik . Impact area is patrolled by the Cuban military. The front part of the U-2 with the pilot fell near Banes , and the tail - the coast , in the Gulf. Grechanik at his request, handed a piece of the fuselage with the room, and he is now stored in the part .
After a day or two heard : there telegram defense minister supposedly plane shot down prematurely, but to us it does not affect . The decision was made not to destroy us. "
So who makes the decisions?
It seems a rhetorical question. In the army, all painted, including this. All true. But the fact of the matter is that in the case of the destruction of the U-2 over Cuba , apparently , got the problem .
Some participants in the events of the Cuban believe that the decision taken by the CP Group's troops in Havana - namely, the deputy commander of the air defense Lieutenant General Stepan Grechko . The latter contend that Grechko faltered , and the goal is ordered to destroy the commander of the 27th Air Defense Division Colonel Georgy Voronkov . In the arsenal of evidence on both sides - the memory , and it is known to happen , and sums , especially after a few decades.
According to a former deputy commander in Cuba for military training Leonid Garbuz , now Major General Retired , events unfolded so .
When he arrived in the morning on October 27 KP Groups troops fighting crew work led Stepan Grechko, radio center was leading a reconnaissance plane . Grechko GARBUZ reported that on several occasions called Pliev , but he does not answer. At this time, a duty officer reported on changing the course objectives in the north- west. Grechko picked up again , but there was no reply . U- 2 could open fully missile defense grouping and grouping and leave, but Grechko not dare to give an order without a commander . According Garbuz , Pliev established strict order in the management of defense . He forbade the field to open fire on their own and said that decision will be made by himself. Pliev at this time was likely to Fidel Castro. After another query operations duty gearbox division , Grechko prone to being to destroy the target. He asked the opinion of the first deputy commander Lieutenant General Paul Dankevich , Chief of Staff of Military Force Lieutenant-General Pavel Akindinova and Maj. Gen. Garbuz . All of them were in favor of destroying targets , and Grechko ordered . But is it ?
Order Colonel Voronkov
Checkpoint 27th Air Defense Division , which was located on the outskirts of the city of Camaguey , which is 600 km from Havana , cut a crew headed by the Deputy Chief of Staff for Combat Management - a duty officer Major General Nikolai Serova .
According to him , and they also presented a rather convincing , events unfolded as follows .
"I made ​​atonement for combat duty at 9 am on October 26 - wrote me Serova . - Duty carried in radio silence . Evening on the phone with me contacted the division commander Colonel Georgy Voronkov . He gave me the following: " Got encryption - tomorrow at dawn war . Bring the division in combat readiness , but secretly . " After a few minutes officers directions reported on their readiness for combat , were all included air defenses, the CP arrived Colonel Voronkov officers full combat crew .
In readiness for combat duty we spent the night of 26 to 27 October . Dawn , but it was quiet , the radar aerial targets were not observed. But nerves are all on edge, fatigue impacted sleepless night . At eight o'clock came even encryption . We were instructed to go on duty abbreviated calculations and open fire only when you explicitly enemy attack . Therefore, the division commander, with staff officers went for breakfast and stay at the headquarters , which was located in the city. Again, we did not sleep all night . KP on my shift Acronym calculation and responsible staff of the division of Colonel Ivan Aleshin (Head radar troops divisions).
At nine o'clock in the morning on October 27 tablet planshetisty general air situation began to render high-altitude target, which moved over Cuban territory towards Havana - Santiago de Cuba . The flight route and altitude ( 20 km ) leads to the conclusion that it is the U.S. spy plane U- 2 , and that he photographed our military formations . Commanders of air defense missile regiments became strongly request from me, the decision to open fire , proving that this is a clear attack . Others believed that a scout with impunity intelligence can not produce our products - after his position collapses crushing bomb . Let me remind you , by the time we were all set to repel an attack , " not cool down " yet . Reported by telephone to the CP Group's troops in Havana General Grechko that commanders insist on destroying reconnaissance aircraft . This is where it all started.
For more than 30 minutes were interminable " debates " between MP antiaircraft missile troops , our MP and General Grechko : open fire or not, clear the attack or not, what the consequences for our troops can then be etc. General Grechko advised to take the time to wait , he says, " did not get through to the commander ."
A U- 2 is already close to the southeastern tip of the island , the city of Santiago de Cuba, where there was a regiment commanded by Colonel Rzhevskij . I asked Colonel Aleshin him to report on the phone setting the division commander , but he answered you appropriately . I dialed landline and reported to headquarters : " Over Cuba spy plane U-2 photographs battle formations of our troops. Commanders of insisting on opening fire on it , find it obvious attack. Checkpoint Groups troops no solution, more than 40 minutes did not get through to the commander . " After a short pause , apparently weighing the "pros " and "cons " , Colonel Georgy Voronkov ordered to destroy spy plane , and added that immediately goes to KP.
Decision commander of the 27th Air Defense Division I immediately handed over to the officers directions antiaircraft missile parts and reported this to the CP Group General Grechko troops , but he said nothing. Colonel Korolev officers hurried to the cabin areas for personal involvement in the leadership of the destruction of the enemy aircraft . Lockheed U- 2 in the meantime , flying over Cuba , more than 600 km, retired towards the sea, and our means of finding his lost . What to do? I give the command in the shelves: " Be prepared to open fire on the U- 2 in the case of re-entry ." After a few minutes , U-2 found again . My assumptions come true - scout returned for re- photographing our positions . At 9 hours and 20 minutes Division Major Gerchenova goal destroyed near the town of Banes . I reported this to the CP Group of Forces General Grechko , but again he told me nothing .
Soon arrived at the KP Colonel Voronkov and took control calculation in their hands. After 30-40 minutes of silence with the CP Group's troops began to request , specify : who shot down, where the plane fell , and so on. "
And now back to Havana. Army General Pliev took the report on destruction reconnaissance aircraft safely . He only gave the order to expedite data collection and prepare coded telegram to the Minister of Defence. On the basis of its Malinowski
October 28 at 10.45 Khrushchev sent an official report .
October 28th Chief of Staff of Military Force Lt. Gen. Paul Akindinov briefed all those involved in the destruction of U- 2 encryption of received from the Minister of Defense. It consisted of two sentences : " You hurry. Outline ways of settlement."
The headquarters were expecting a more stringent telegrams , but they were not followed. Cuban leadership is perceived fact preventing the flight of delight - the first time the Americans were punished for rule of the demand in the sky without Cuba.
source of information
Anatoly Dokuchaev, Independent Military Review, number 30 , 18.08.2000
Even professionals made mistakes when adrenalin starts rushing... I could say I have a privilege to feel some thanks to our beloved SAMSim!!!
Quote:
In the cockpit - complete silence , frozen in anticipation with me battalion commander Ivan Gerchenov commander Vasily Gorchakov radio batteries , guidance officer Alexander Ryapenko operators . Target tracked on RS, then on the automatic tracking , here it is - inside the kill zone. The silence was interrupted by the voice of Major Gerchenova : " What do we do ? Shoot ? " Looked at me. I kept in touch with CP part , so immediately asked when will be the order to shoot. Then repeated the request . I said, " Wait , the order is about to go ." And then : " Destroy target number 33, launch three." This means - three rockets should go one by one in six seconds . But it happens either...
Ryapenko reported: "First , start" . Started first rocket . We have a track on missile . Again silence , you can hear a panting operators. His voice broke the officer's guidance : "Target - a meeting! ." And the target continuing the flight. And then suddenly remembered Gerchenov instead of three missiles we let one . It turned out, we began to shoot single . Launched the second missile . On the radar screen is seen as two points closer together - the target and the rocket . Here they are merged into one , and a new report Ryapenko , this time joyous " Second - detonation, target is destroyed , bearing 322 , range 12 kilometers." Analysis showed that the plane was shot down a missile in the first 9:00 of 20 minutes, but was still gliding flight . From the second U- 2 rocket fell apart into small pieces.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home