Which is odd, since I'm sitting next to the server comp... sigh.

Some formation flying from tonight.

Nice work Fridge... and thank you. I will now banish the word "basically" from my vernacular.

.. and thank you Eno for helping me be 1 of those birds in the formation shown. Especially when "basic" was about all I could manage at the time...
Also with some good assist from Fridge....

@Eno: Fridge and I managed to whack 3 out of the 4 ADA platoons around that next objective and another player managed to take down the 4th SA-9. About half the forces on that last objective are now scrap metal; there were about three A-10C guys in there when I left.

Thanks Gordo... looks like the mission expired at the end. I might need to extend it-


I'm still not sure why it is that flag sets so late telling people the general area of the artillery- though I must admit that scouring the area for 20 minutes or so did add to the level of realism.

On another note, Fridge and I talked about the formation flight the other day and though he was unquestionably able to station keep with remarkable consistency- following me through all my various corrections in flight path and bat turns all over the sky... it occurred to me that some of you may be flying formation the best you can without knowing there is a method. Einstein taught it to me, and I'd like to bring it back to everyone's attention. It's not to be critical at all- but some folks will enjoy knowing the methods... others won't care and can disregard.

I bring you to this link- brought to you generously by the folks at the 476th and 74th vTS.

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=76

What I do notice is nothing referenced as to how to relate the aircraft position to your own orientation. What Einstein taught me and what Paul / Snoopy can maybe comment on for our benefit is that if you line up the bottom corner of your related mirror (if you're forming up on someone's left wing, you would use the bottom edge of your right mirror) with the wingtip of your wingman, which is lined up with either the ejection triangle or basically the pilots head.

Whether you're lined up 500 feet apart or 50 feet apart- if you keep this orientation it will add structure to the formation. It allows for very precise and disciplined formation flight. As Fridge demonstrates our membership (quote unquote) is very capable of station keeping- this additional resource will allow us to streamline our formation flying and add some knowledge to our ranks.


Thanks again to the 476 / 74 vTS for the resources.

I'll certainly take a look at that link.

I would characterize my formation flying in the above videos as about where I would expect people to be with medium skill in formation flying. That position allows you to keep tabs on everything (wingman ahead and instruments/flight path marker/speed) with relative ease. It's a good place to evolve into once you can match speed with your flight lead and start to keep him/her stationary on your windscreen.

The next step would be to move up to being on his actual wing using the various parts of the cockpit structure and the structure of your lead to maintain and hold position. That's what I need to do next, now that I am feeling more comfortable keeping position as I was in the video.

The one thing I will note is that it takes more concentration and anticipation to keep off your lead's wing when looking more off to the left or right; when you are more unable to see the hud and you have to use your wingman's position and orientation to to gauge speed and closure. I didn't show it in the video but after Eno mentioned it I moved to the position he had indicated and it was more difficult to keep my place :-)

Generally, I would say that a beginner position is closer to the 5/7 (5 oclock, 7 ocolock) position off your lead. Medium is the 4/8 off off you lead whereas expert is 3:30/8:30.

That would actually be medium skill. Wing-work with relatively benign maneuvering (maneuvering suited to wing-work, that is). Before you can do this, the skill isn't really there. (You did do a nice echelon turn though) Not to rain on your parade or anything, I'm just saying .. I have medium formation flying skill ... I can stay on fingertip through most maneuvers at many speeds, but not as accurately as some people (and I don't do it in A-10's. A-10's make it easy by being slow. Fast fighters cause issues with formation flying due to their high speed pitch rates, then again, lead is being a jerk if he's asking you to fly fingertip at over 400kt for anything but a transient) That's where I'm coming from when I rate this.

There's no formation that has you flying at 5/7 o-clock ... not 'beginner', not anything. But that IS where people start out in games because it's comfortable for them to not have to turn their head, they can see their HuD, etc. And that builds bad habits, so it's not just not beginner, it's actually bad from an educational perspective.

The only formation that I know of where you are within limits at 5/7 is fighting wing, and that's just the cone limit. You usually end up there because of vicious maneuvering, not because it's where you should be flying it.

The linked doc is exactly the same concerning visual references as the real world A-10C training info.

Close Formation/Fingertip
-Forward/aft—Place the leading edge of the wingtip on the ejection triangle below the canopy rail (this technique allows the pilot to focus attention on the cockpit area of the lead aircraft).

-Vertical—Place the wingtip position light on the bottom of the star on lead’s fuselage.

-Lateral—Align the aft end of the tail pipe of the close engine with the aft end of the cowling of the far engine.

Route Formation
-Route formation is an extension of fingertip formation out to 500 feet and is primarily used for travel (up to 500 feet between aircraft). Maintain the normal fore/aft close formation references with the addition of the “V” between the vertical tails, and position yourself slightly below lead. This allows wingmen to check cockpit
instruments, provide visual lookout, and still transition into close formation if weather or other circumstances dictate.



You're welcome, we enjoy sharing with the community!

Thanks Paul and GG-

As you likely already know we're pretty informal in our approach but I know some guys like (to know how) to take it to that next level... Everyone needs that challenge to keep the sim from getting stale so as we find little bits of realism here and there, the group of regulars are pretty anxious to eat it up.

Quick "Pig Pen" update... (my new name for the garage.)




Looks a little distorted because it was taken from the side but you get the idea. She nailed "cat boy" (as she calls him).

Hey Eno,

The training mission with the 476th Objects has a slight issue; with the default weapons (live) they class as friendly fire when you strafe or bomb the objects. So SLMOD tends to kick the players; happened to a new guy that was in.

Worth on that mission giving the hogs training 30mm rounds and Blue (dummy) training rounds as default?

As mentioned in our email- I did address this issue in advance with the 476 and they mentioned that if I made the units immortal that it would resolve the issue. It appears that it didn't quite so I've gone back there again to see if we can work something out.

It might just be a matter of assigning the targets themselves to a different nationality- so they're not friendly targets.

I had originally assigned dummy rounds only but thought with the immortal setting that it wouldn't matter.

I'll see what kind of response I get back from them before I post that mission again. If anyone was kicked or banned (as discussed) while shooting targets in this mission, let me know and I'll deal with it.

Sorry for the trouble folks.

Eno: Hardly call it trouble mate; you and Crew are in there putting these missions together and host servers; otherwise we'd be just flying SP missions.

Had any additional thought to creating a night or two (like the ArmA3 nights) where we can jump on as a slightly larger group and run missions? Sunday evening might work? (After the Serious Sunday ArmA3 games?)

Oh and the pig pen is looking friggin awesome!

So realistic you don't wanna stand in front of it huh Eno? Looking great!

Wow... I didn't realize they had 110v outlets in the desert... Thats really cool... you can plug in a fan...

That looks really cool Eno... man that is some awesome detail.

You know I'm just opinionated I'm not trying to tell you how to play your game though, just sharing the 'grading sheet' from a different perspective/level (and IMHO of course more accurate ).

I'll throw in anouther couple cents, strictly as an FYI, that learning how to fly formation (and I mean all the form exercises, especially rejoins and extended trail/fighting wing exercises) teaches you how to fly BFM.

And what's BFM? It's what all air combat flying is based on. All of it. It's the core skill of a combat pilot bar none, everything and I mean every single skill when flying depends on knowing BFM.

So, formation exercises don't just make you look pretty ... they make you a better pilot! Unfortunately, you probably can't really get'em done right by reading a book, at least not in a reasonable amount of time IMHO. You need a knowledgeable and capable instructor.

How long does it take to get proficient? With a good instructor and capable student, a reasonable level is reached probably after about 10-15 1-hour sorties. They don't involve shooting at anyone, but they also don't involve flying on someone's wing all the time.

And, you can get your practice in every time you fly with someone: Going to the target zone? Pick and fly a formation! Coming in for landing? Get into formation for your overhead and lead gets to practice wingman consideration and good navigation (good nav usually leads to good wingman consideration) as he maneuvers to line up on the runway.

Yeah, I probably just like watching myself type :P

Shooting for this weekend... new 'Paradise' mission for A-10s and Hueys. Two 'settlement workers paradise' camps have sprung up close enough to Tbilisi to threaten the tri-city airports with artillery attack. These camps need to be bombed to smithereens, and the cargo planes that supply them must be blasted from the sky.

This is my last mission before the new Nevada map comes out (until I get another idea).


Yahoo -- almost the holidays!

WC

AND in other fun news, UPS has my HOTAS Warthog "OUT FOR DELIVERY".
The bad news is I work 2-10 today, might miss the delivery and therefore might not get to use it.....

However, tomorrow is my DAY OFF.

Eno, if I talked about an internal reference method when flying formation, it was probably to mention NOT to use it! Flying off of internal references is misleading and can result in pilot-induced oscillations and failure to recognize unsafe closure rates and attitudes until too late. I tried to point this out in the station keeping exercise I posted here: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3528152/Formation_Flying_Station_Keepi#Post3528152 The sight picture should be completely based on the lead's aircraft, not your own, and should have a couple different points so you can triangulate that you're in the right position.

I second a few of GrayGhost's other comments and want to reiterate them here:

1) No one can tell you how you should fly. This is a game, go have fun. That said, some folks have a lot of experience with the same challenges that you face. Listen to them, try out what they have to say, see if it works for you. If not, no big deal - it's not like we're flying for real here.

2) Getting comfortable with wrong but convenient technique using the wrong but convenient cues can lead to developing bad habits that are even harder to break out of afterwards. In the case of formation flying, if you're just looking to fly alongside other aircraft and look kinda neat doing it, then continue to experiment with what works for you. For "real" formation flying, the aircraft need to be working to an established standard with specific maneuvers and communication protocols. Instead of trying to re-invent that, there are standards and practices that have been tested, demonstrated, and used for a very long time in the US Military and in civilian aircraft. The Formation and Safety Team (FAST) is a civilian organization but they have some great materials that apply to our virtual simulation world. My recommendation is that if you want to learn to fly a formation in a standardized and demonstrated way, start with the FAST processes: http://flyfast.org/content/documents

3) Learning to fly formation (station keep, primarily) *will* help you execute aerial refueling (made a HUGE difference for me) and in your dog fighting (I still suck at this) and your situational awareness in general.

4) Practice practice practice. Every time I fly I try to form up with someone, although, to be honest, it's rare that I find someone who wants to stay joined up much after takeoff.

5) Being a lead is much harder than being a wingman. You have to plan and execute your maneuvers and formation changes and keep your flight safe while maintaining combat effectiveness. Being able to hit autopilot only temporarily solves one problem. You have to think for your wingman, too. You can't be a decent lead without being a great wingman.

6) Being a wingman is more than just flying on someone's wing. Knowing where you're supposed to be in formation, providing mutual support to your lead, following lead's orders and guidance even if you would have done something differently, etc. This is where you should start learning formation flying.

Looks like GG isn't the only one who likes to read his own writing!

Anywho, I would love to see this community take their performance to the next step and take on formation flying in all its glory.

I plan on flying tonight, if anybody wants to practice station keeping or some basic maneuvers.