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#3869497 - 11/30/13 09:24 AM Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow.  
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3instein Offline
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25163045

Just saw this on the morning news,3 people are confirmed dead,more likely.I was in Glasgow last night picking my son up from Glasgow Airport and were going to stop in Glasgow for a bite to eat but just came straight home instead.
People are still trapped inside the pub where the chopper crashed.

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#3869513 - 11/30/13 10:52 AM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Reports are saying it's worse than 3 dead.I don't trust the news source however,you know how they like to sensationalise everything.

There didn't appear to be any fire upon crashing,that's one small blessing.


EV's are the Devils matchbox.
#3869514 - 11/30/13 10:59 AM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Hmm my news provider is still reporting 1 dead.

Possibilities:
they are slow off the mark on updating the story
sensationalism from the other news reports
the story I have is incorrect (2 crew *plus* one dead in pub??)
a miracle and two resurrections
zombies...

#3869516 - 11/30/13 11:25 AM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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The news here is saying one dead with that figure expected to rise. About 35 are being treated in hospitals. Terrible though it is, it's a miracle there weren't more; the Clutha is a tiny, cramped place and it would have been packed to the rafters last night.

It was my friends band who were playing. They all seem ok, though, and didn't even realise exactly what had happened until later.

It's a great wee pub, and a major focus of the folk music scene, with the likes of Billy Connoly and Jerry Rafferty (and even Bob Dylan at one point) spending time and playing there.

#3869530 - 11/30/13 12:52 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Ice Cold in Alex or Eating in ...
Reports saying 3 dead now and they don't expect to find any more survivors. Sad day for all those involved.

My late uncle used to play in the pub too, he was part of the folk/blues scene playing the flute, then again he played at a lot of venues around Glasgow.

Before I bought a house near Loch Lomond, I used to stay in the hotel across the road from the pub when we visited Glasgow.


Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
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#3869603 - 11/30/13 05:26 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Last edited by Mogster; 11/30/13 05:28 PM.

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#3870029 - 12/01/13 09:40 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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very sad


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carpe diem
#3870259 - 12/02/13 10:32 AM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Scary thing is, 98% of Police forces in the UK operate an EC135.
An MD900 used to be the de facto standard.

Anyway, "A Loud Bang" usually indicates vital something letting go.

And a broken helicopter = brick.

I know Helicopters have the ability to hover and a small landing area, but given they spend a lot of time over built up areas and the support crew need space, why not use fixed wing assets, at least you can glide them somewhere "safe" if it goes pear shaped.


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#3870405 - 12/02/13 04:00 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: Comrade_Hedgehog]  
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Rick.50cal Offline
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Originally Posted By: Comrade_Hedgehog
Scary thing is, 98% of Police forces in the UK operate an EC135.
An MD900 used to be the de facto standard.

Anyway, "A Loud Bang" usually indicates vital something letting go.

And a broken helicopter = brick.

I know Helicopters have the ability to hover and a small landing area, but given they spend a lot of time over built up areas and the support crew need space, why not use fixed wing assets, at least you can glide them somewhere "safe" if it goes pear shaped.


Well... that ability to hover is perhaps more important than you seem to be considering. It helps greatly with illuminating and covering ground operations, in following vehicles that are being driven at normal speeds, in detecting criminals on foot.

The ability to land vertically in tight spaces is also very important, since from what I understand, police helicopters in the UK also tend to do a lot of medical evacuations and rescue. You aren't gonna land a fixed wing on half the roads in the UK, what with stone walls and rarely straight roads (not an indictment...it's got it's charms!), so a helo landing in the road, or in the grass field right beside would be of great value in getting a patient that's bleeding out, to an emergency room fast.

Personally I feel the solution to police helicopter safety is to keep their training and standards high, and to ensure the helicopter companies are improving safety all the time. We can't really expect policing to be done much by fixed wing...well, in Canada sure, but we have tens of thousands of kilometers our cops have to service...though in our biggest cities we now have a handful of helicopters. Our police helicopters don't cover medical emergencies, because we've had a much larger fleet of medical helicopters for decades, and search and rescue is split between military, coast guard, local police helos, and civilian helicopters hired on the spot. It's harsh enough that there's been a few times where a search and rescue helicopter has fallen victim to harsh conditions that caused the search in the first place. How does one stop that? By getting ever improving helicopters, and ensuring that the pilots get the best training possible and are great leaders making wise decisions under the stress of real operations.

My impression is that whatever number of humans that die from police helicopters crashing, is far outweighed by the number of people those helicopters save or keep safe from prowling criminals and fugitives, the number of people saved from being lost in the elements, and also the number of citizens and cops that get killed by cops operating from cars. In Canada I don't believe I've ever heard of anyone dying from police helicopters...but car accidents...whoa. And many of them aren't even "high risk" events like chases...just plain old bad luck accidents on our roads...someone comming over a rise, sees at the last second, can't stop. That's such a threat to police survival that for a few decades now several departments have required their members to be wearing their "bullet proof vests", because it's known to make bad accidents significantly more survivable (spreads the trauma from impact against seatbelts, probably aids in side impact, and protects chest trauma from steering wheel).


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#3870411 - 12/02/13 04:11 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Three crew on a EC135 and some surveilance equipment means that thing could fly all the way home on one engine no problem.

The whole scenario doesn't seem like a tail rotor strike either (Fenestron anyway, much harder to damage by accidental contact).

Something major came off the bird, that seems highly likely. Which would be as bad on fixed wing.

#3870434 - 12/02/13 04:43 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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They found another body after removing the helicopter today.
There is a family still looking for a son that was in the pub frown

Could it have been a gearbox failure freezing the main rotor?
From the report on the BBC an eye witness has said "...he heard a loud bang and the helicopter was spinning wildly and dropped like a stone"
Sounds like the tail rotor.

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Chlanna nan con thigibh a so's gheibh sibh feoil
Sons of the hound come here and get flesh
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#3870452 - 12/02/13 05:05 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Sounding more and More like they landed on the Roof, and the Roof Collapsed.

I questioned The Lack of Fire/Explosion, then when pictures started coming out on social streams, I questioned the Lack of Damage to the Rotor Blades, which other than being snapped in half, were still mostly attached to the chopper.

Had it fallen out of the sky, the rotors would have been torn off and thrown out by forces. and there would have been some form of Fuel Fire/Explosion.

It seemed like Someone Landed it there, shut down, part of the roof broke, drew some attention then a moment later the roof caved in, sending broken wood and debris + a Chopper into a crowd.

*Not saying it wasnt/couldnt have been an Emergency Landing due to Mechanical Failure*

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#3870453 - 12/02/13 05:05 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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From the pics and video the whole end of the tail boom seems to be missing, it could have broken off in the crash though. There have been a number of North Sea oil offshore helicopter accidents with gearbox problems recently, you do wonder if that's a similar incident. No radio messages from the crew apparently.

As for fixed wing for law enforcement as well as an MD 900 heli my local Cops fly a rather nice Britten Norman BN-2T-4S Defender 4000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iA3Jj0MQ88


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#3870454 - 12/02/13 05:07 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: Mogster]  
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Originally Posted By: Mogster
From the pics and video the whole end of the tail boom seems to be missing, it could have broken off in the crash though. There have been a number of North Sea oil offshore helicopter accidents with gearbox problems recently, you do wonder if that's a similar incident. No radio messages from the crew apparently.

As for fixed wing for law enforcement as well as an MD 900 heli my local Cops fly a rather nice Britten Norman BN-2T-4S Defender 4000.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iA3Jj0MQ88



Tail Section was broken off from the Chopper, and had "POLICE" written on it.
[IMG]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71443000/jpg/_71443372_photo.jpg[IMG]


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#3870537 - 12/02/13 07:15 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Sounding more and More like they landed on the Roof, and the Roof Collapsed.

I questioned The Lack of Fire/Explosion, then when pictures started coming out on social streams, I questioned the Lack of Damage to the Rotor Blades, which other than being snapped in half, were still mostly attached to the chopper.

Had it fallen out of the sky, the rotors would have been torn off and thrown out by forces. and there would have been some form of Fuel Fire/Explosion.

It seemed like Someone Landed it there, shut down, part of the roof broke, drew some attention then a moment later the roof caved in, sending broken wood and debris + a Chopper into a crowd.

*Not saying it wasnt/couldnt have been an Emergency Landing due to Mechanical Failure*

The eyewitness reports of it 'dropping like a stone' directly contradict this. I know they're not generally very reliable, but what you're suggesting is a world away from what was described by people on the scene. Besides, there doesn't seem to be any reason to deliberately land on the roof. The immediate area had plenty of more appropriate space.

I'd read the witnesses describing the blades not rotating, which would account for them not being thrown off in the crash. Would that also suggest some sort of gearbox or main rotor hub failure?

#3870636 - 12/02/13 09:38 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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The lack of radio comms from the crew seems to suggest a sudden event. A controlled emergency landing would have given the pilot time to call in an emergency I'd imagine.

The River Clyde is very close by, I'd think the pilot would have been very familiar with the area. Any control at all would have let him stick it in there surely.

Edit..........

Investigators now suggesting that nothing fell off the heli before it hit the roof, everything has been recovered. Blades are largely undamaged, probably weren't turning fast when it hit the ground. Gearbox?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25188683


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#3870637 - 12/02/13 09:43 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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#3870666 - 12/02/13 10:28 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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The thing is, even a complete loss of the drivetrain would allow for a an autorotation (unless they were very close to the ground or it somehow blocks the main rotor to a standstil which I believe should be nigh impossible). I'd really like to know from which cruise alt they came down.

The hole in the roof doesn't quite look like the helo was heavily spinning as it came down.

#3870693 - 12/02/13 11:07 PM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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looks like it come in nose first at about 30 degrees.


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#3870734 - 12/03/13 12:27 AM Re: Police helicopter crashes into busy pub on the banks of the River Clyde in Glasgow. [Re: 3instein]  
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Is it possible the gearbox jammed and exploded, severing control linkages and slowing the rotor blades?

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