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#3867110 - 11/24/13 11:38 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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LukeFF Offline
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You're giving this way too much thought.

#3867112 - 11/24/13 11:43 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Ian Boys Offline
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Broadbottom UK
What I want to know is, can I run away from all German planes in an La-5 if it gets too hot? The ability to bug out is vastly under-rated smile

#3867116 - 11/24/13 12:03 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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15/JG52_Genie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damocles
What I'm saying is that, to a certain extent the accuracy of the FM's is irrelevant.

....

For example, you might have a developer put out an aircraft that they claim is within plus or minus 10% of the performance of the actual aircraft. In other words it's 90% or more correct
....

Neither aircraft is significantly wrong and both lie within the developers claims of 90% accuracy however aircraft(a) now has no historical strengths and cannot compete in a manner that might have been the norm during the events depicted.

....

It is all well and good producing a brilliant depiction of an aircraft in it's own right, but if how it fits into a wider canvas, such as a combat flight sim, is ignored then it will inevitably shine that little less brilliantly.


Well don't forget that the specifications you see for the aircraft are approximate specifications when compared with real life.

Aircrafts can perform as much as (good) fuel, quality spare parts, good mechanic and unpredictable circumstances allow them. So having a plane in +/-10% margin is perfectly acceptable.

You fly the plane in GENERAL way it was designed for smile Doesn't mean it will perform as advertised (as in real life :-) )

Still, 90% of kills were surprise kills. Poor fellow didn't even saw what hit him.. No matter was it with 330 or 360kph dive..

Last edited by 15/JG52_Genie; 11/24/13 12:04 PM.
#3867392 - 11/25/13 05:25 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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helagu Offline
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^^ Great post!

#3867399 - 11/25/13 06:36 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Alabaster, AL USA
....and even if everything was science, folks would still swear it was wrong because it turned out they couldn't get the same results as Yeager, Safanov, Rudel, Bong, or any number of pilots that actually did the flying in WWII.

Note that I listed Aces; the smart guys never point out the pilot that slugged through the war and came away with half a kill as an example on why the sim is wrong.

Let's look at the I-15bis and the I-16 for illumination. Both were woefully obsolete at the start of WWII, and really had no business squaring off against 109's in 1941. On paper they should have been decimated - and in large measure they were. Until we get to Murmansk, where Safanov and his merry band made an incredible showing in both, due to training and the nature of the tactical environment. Their record improved, of course, when they ditched their obsolete aircraft in favor of the much more superior Hurricane IIb and P-40 in 1942.

The P-39 was castigated as nearly worthless in the Pacific and on the Western front by the Allies, but the Soviets loved them. The conventional wisdom was that they used them primarily in ground attack, but that was a false premise. All Soviet aircraft had a ground attack role, but the P-39 was used to great effect as an air superiority fighter by the Soviets. The difference was strategic altitude and tactical considerations. The P-39 suffered above 10,000 feet, which is why the USA and the Commonwealth couldn't make them fit into the template of useful aircraft - but on the Soviet front, everything was driven down below 10K thanks to the focus on close air support. The IL-2's were low, so the escorts were low and the 109's and 190's had to come low with them.....not to mention the JU-87's and Ju-88's, which weren't high altitude.

Ten percent either side is okay, because most players are so far away from getting even 70% efficiency out of their aircraft that it doesn't matter.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#3867404 - 11/25/13 07:17 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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clayman Offline
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Boy ... it just gets better and better. Well said Troll ... maybe some cant suspend disbelief, the rest of us thrive on the visual feast offered to us.


"Damn the DRM, full Steam ahead!" Guido Farraducci
#3867410 - 11/25/13 08:04 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Quax Offline
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Germany
Originally Posted By: Damocles

I wonder if possibly Loft (the RoF FM creator) was too systematic in his creations in RoF.


1. Loft doesnt do the FMs. ( Andrey Petrovich Solomykin does the FM - the SU25T was his first "new generation" FM. DCS is still based on this. ROF was his next step ahead (compare spins and ground model !)

2. The FMs came out very close to the data they had. The problem was to find the "correct" data.
(the argumentation of one community member, that the Camel got "prototype values" and the Albies test data from allied tests was quite believable - they just didnt have other data).

The test data they have from WW2 aircraft are much better. I dont expect any of the WW1 data problems.
The FM is outstanding and far ahead of others in the market. BOS will proof this.

Last edited by Quax; 11/25/13 08:06 AM.
#3867471 - 11/25/13 12:19 PM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Georgio Offline
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Hockley, UK
There are some people that will never be satisfied with the FM of any plane and blame the apparent short-comings on this spurious nerf instead of looking in the mirror and accepting their own limitations.
A good example of this is Planetside 2 a game I've been dabbling in for the past year; Three factions with uniquely balanced weapons and still some people whine that this or that faction has the 'best' weaponry.
What is hilarious is when the same people still end up getting waxed when they try a different faction with their perceived advantageous weapons.
Of course it doesn't occur to them that they are the common denominator in all this, so then they start to whine about hackers and so it goes on... biggrin

#3867576 - 11/25/13 04:57 PM Re: Acid test [Re: helagu]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Originally Posted By: helagu
^^ Great post!


+1

#3867875 - 11/26/13 09:07 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

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Alabaster, AL USA
However, we can't be too quick to castigate the fellow with corrections and a list of .pdf's worth of evidence to show when something isn't right - the rest of us need them to make sims better.

There is a point where it becomes perfidious - if one is relying on 30 kph difference in top speed as the margin for victory or survival, one is already dead. Bullets and cannon shells go much faster than that. That's where we throw the flag and gently remind that it's just a simulation made for entertainment.

I have no idea what color the throttle handle on a 109/F4 should be. But I'm grateful that there's a guy out there that does and points it out to the developers.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#3867882 - 11/26/13 09:33 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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csThor Offline
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If my 0,02 are allowed. I think the underlying issue is the duel menthality, the absolute drive for competitive gaming. And if the output isn't as expected (read: the player got shot down) it has to be the FM/system that's faulty, not the input. The FM is both scientific enough to allow for hard facts but also etheric enough to allow any kind of personal interpretation - which usually results in the nastinesses we've all seen over the years.

Which is why I have gotten out of online flying and focused on trying to emulate believable air ops offline. At least I won't have to deal with self-poclaimed aces who can't think beyond the next dogfight and fostering their "throatache" (urge to gain medals in WW2 Luftwaffe slang).


Intel i7 960 @ 3.2 GHz - ASUS Rampage III Gene Republic of Gamers - 6GB RAM OCZ CL7 XTC Platinum PC3-12800 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 480 - 64GB Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA II - 1TB Western Digital WD1002FAEX SATA II - Creative Soundblaster Xi-Fi Titanium - Windows 7 Professional 64bit
#3867886 - 11/26/13 09:46 AM Re: Acid test [Re: Damocles]  
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Dart Offline
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Lifer

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,507
Alabaster, AL USA
I like "throatache" guys.

They let me appreciate the damage model built into my aircraft!

Plus there is no higher praise in a server than to be accused of cheating; it lets me know that I'm finally at the level of skill that I'm capable of pulling a few surprises. It took me three years in RB3D to be accused of it, four in IL-2, and two in RoF.

The key is to ignore the chat window and only work on private TeamSpeak channels where an adult has admin control and a willingness to ban.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
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