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#3866970 - 11/23/13 11:40 PM Mantle and Ageia PhysX  
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JAMF Offline
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Just a thought...

1: Ageia PhysX is a tool to plot many objects on paths that are realistic by their adherence to laws of physics.
2: Mantle is made to draw one order of magnitude more objects than Direct3D.

Match made in developer heaven? Unless devs start using OpenCL to do the same Ageia PhysX magic that is.

Just throwing it out there.

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#3866988 - 11/24/13 12:51 AM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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Mantle is an API to program Directly to the GPU Hardware, bypassing DirectX and it's CPU Overhead.

PhysX is an API Designed to input physics items (reaction, collision, explosions etc) on objects that dont have any physics interactions.


PhysX is easily replaced by decent animations, and collision models, and even simplistic Physics Coding in the GFX Engine,

PhysX is a gimmick, it was designed as a API to offload Physics Operations to the PPU Card.

Which was designed and released during the Time of Single Core CPUs.

now that we have Multi-Core CPUs and GPUs with Multi-Purpose Shaders, having a dedicated PPU is kinda worthless.

So nVidia bought it integrated it into CUDA, and Handicapped the x86 PhysX Code.

It's Marketed as a Physics API but it's nothing more than Particles Effects, Collision Effects, Etc.

Anything a Engine can do if it was programmed properly.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/24/13 12:53 AM.

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#3867146 - 11/24/13 01:54 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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So have you seen games that don't use APEX PhysX (but OpenCL or something), which show a combination of effects:

-Displacement of fog by a character (like the Batman games, Mafia 2)
-Large number of tracked objects from a destruction, remaining on the ground (like Mafia 2, GRAW, Mirror's Edge)
-Cloth simulation (Like in Mirror's Edge, Mafia 2, Batman)

Just hoping there are current games out there, that do these on a similar level. Does the new Lara Croft game do these, or is it only the cloth for the hair effect?

#3867155 - 11/24/13 02:32 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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Stick to the plan man!
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I think I read that PhysX is supposed to come soon the AC4 with a patch


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#3867217 - 11/24/13 05:47 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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Originally Posted By: JAMF
So have you seen games that don't use APEX PhysX (but OpenCL or something), which show a combination of effects:

-Displacement of fog by a character (like the Batman games, Mafia 2)
-Large number of tracked objects from a destruction, remaining on the ground (like Mafia 2, GRAW, Mirror's Edge)
-Cloth simulation (Like in Mirror's Edge, Mafia 2, Batman)

Just hoping there are current games out there, that do these on a similar level. Does the new Lara Croft game do these, or is it only the cloth for the hair effect?


TR is TressFX, which is basically hair reaction.

All the stuff you listed can be done with decent code.


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#3867270 - 11/24/13 09:37 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
All the stuff you listed can be done with decent code.


I've not bought too many recent games and not noticed any cloth/fog/object effects, so saying it can be done sounds not very encouraging.

I'm running an R9 290 from Sapphire and a second hand MSI 460 Hawk for hybrid PhysX, to clear up where I'm coming from. I see the thousand objects in Mafia 2, but I also see that performance would benefit greatly from Mantle.

#3867273 - 11/24/13 09:48 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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I ran my 8800GTS for PhysX and the list of games that it used was small, so I stopped wasting my time with it.


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#3867679 - 11/25/13 08:56 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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PhysX is like Havok, except Havok is done purely on CPU while PhysX can be offloaded to the GPU (as it was primarily designed) but can also run on CPU.

It's classic chicken-and-egg, though. If Mantle is 100% AMD only, and less than 50% of the users are going to be able to use it, how much time will be spent if it needs extra time on top of DX-only? If it's totally modular to the point that they can start with Mantle and THEN add the rest of DX on top of it, taking no more dev time, it will be used a lot.

Conversely, if it's opened up to nvidia and Intel as well, to the point where perhaps it's not as fast as on AMD but runs no slower there than DX-only, then perhaps it will get universal adoption as long as it hurts nothing.



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#3867689 - 11/25/13 09:10 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: JAMF]  
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Mantle is not AMD, Only It's GCN Only. Some AMD Cards still wont run it.

PhysX was Designed to Run on a Dedicated PPU ( ie this One ), Which debuted when we were all still running Single Core CPU's, Offload Physics from the CPU, allowing for more complex games.

Once Dual Core/HT, and Quad Cores Started Coming out, the Need for a Dedicated PPU Died.

Not to mention, not alot of games had it at the time.

nVidia Bought Ageia, And Made a CUDA PLUGIN that Allowed PhysX Programming to Run on nVidia GPU's, While Still Allowing it to Run on CPU's nVidia Handicapped it.

Pretty much everyone I know that Runs AMD GPUs has a Cheap nVidia GPU for PhysX if they use it,

nVidia doesnt even support the Dedicated PPU Card's Anymore, as the PhysX Code no longer represents what it was back then.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/25/13 09:14 PM.

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#3868509 - 11/27/13 08:23 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Mantle is not AMD, Only It's GCN Only. Some AMD Cards still wont run it.




This statement contradicts itself. Name the non-AMD cards using GCN that could use it?

PhysX is not nvidia-only, it's NEWER nvidia only, you can't run it on a Ti4600. See how ridiculous that is?



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#3868528 - 11/27/13 08:53 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
Mantle is not AMD, Only It's GCN Only. Some AMD Cards still wont run it.




This statement contradicts itself. Name the non-AMD cards using GCN that could use it?

PhysX is not nvidia-only, it's NEWER nvidia only, you can't run it on a Ti4600. See how ridiculous that is?



The Jedi Master


Meant to say that mantle will not run on every AMD GFX Card, it must be a GCN GPU to Run mantle.

an AMD Exec also Said Mantle *could* be used with nVidia CPUs in the future,

I Ran PhysX just fine on my 8800 GTS which is 7+ years old.


Last edited by SkateZilla; 11/27/13 08:55 PM.

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#3868532 - 11/27/13 09:03 PM Re: Mantle and Ageia PhysX [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
nVidia Bought Ageia, And Made a CUDA PLUGIN that Allowed PhysX Programming to Run on nVidia GPU's, While Still Allowing it to Run on CPU's nVidia Handicapped it.


There's two types of PhysX, the CPU-based like regular physics which you'll see quite a few games use. That is being rendered on the CPU despite owning an Nvidia GPU or not - ArmA 3 has that. Then there's hardware based PhysX effects like cloth, particles etc. which not a lot of games use these days but that requires an actual GPU to enable. Won't even work without the GPU, only game I've seen an actual workaround was Mafia II.


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