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#3857132 - 11/01/13 06:43 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Logan]  
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Originally Posted By: Logan
I said yes I would but the Tuesday, Thursday thing reduces my flying time to a few hours at best.


+1

I'm all for supporting BoS. IMHO, it would be more beneficial to allow early access Friday - Monday. We could put some stick time into the sim and then send our reports in where into 777 for review. I don't know 777's working hours, but here in USA most people, especially this time of year, can devote more time to the sim alpha/beta testing.

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#3857169 - 11/01/13 08:17 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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Unless the devs want to debug in real-time which seems unlikely, then surely the best timescale for gathering information would be over the 48 hours of a weekend when most people have the chance to relax and grab some stick-time?
After all if all the bugs are then auto logged, assuming that everyone is online, then the team have the following five days to correct and update the software ready for the next weekend's fun and games.
Seems logical to me, but then I don't work in the industry so there might be other issues at play.

#3857214 - 11/01/13 09:53 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Weav]  
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Originally Posted By: JimD

In the big picture, we're giving money to keep flight sims going-that's what is important. Missing some play time on an alpha for the first week or two is not a big deal IMO.


+1


Originally Posted By: Georgio

Seems logical to me, but then I don't work in the industry so there might be other issues at play.


Without this other issues, they would have started 24/7. Dont you think so ?

Most important for them is, to get a stable sim out next year. If they manage that (and everybody, who knows ROF, is pretty sure about it), they will have achieved much more than others ....(seven years too develope an unplayable bugfeast f.e.)

Last edited by Juergen; 11/01/13 09:59 PM.
#3857315 - 11/02/13 02:31 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Of course some people are disappointed at not having 24/7 access, iam too, but i understand why its happening.

I pre-ordered for the most part to help the devs test and fund the sim before release.

The goal here is to make sure BOS's release in 6 months is a success, the 3000 pre-orders are great, but the goal is the sales after release and for years to come, we will only get that with a well made successful sim at launch, if the devs think doing things this way is the best way to achieve that, then im with them.

So pre-order now for $90, help the devs test, have some fun along the way, enjoy the bonus content at release.
or
Wait for the release in 6 months, pay $10 extra, don't help test and don't get to muck around with BOS at all until its released in Q2 next year.

Don't get me wrong, i completely understand people's frustration and disappointment at the limited access, but we should remember what the real goal is here for everyone.

Also the limited access should improve after a short time.


This...

I think one of the reasons they did it this way is because they have families too... and this allows them to address issues quicker and in some cases deal with them in a more timely fashion. Something goes south on Tuesday they deal with it on Wednesday .. as opposed to something going south on Saturday and having to deal with it on Monday.. It makes sense to me. At this stage this is not about us and what we want.. We have to go along with what is best for the development of the product or else pay the price in 2014. The way I see it I paid $90 for something that would cost me more if I waited.. and I bought BoS ... BoS Alpha .. Beta .. whatever .. is a bonus.. I am also pretty sure that the La-5 & 190 I bought will cost me more in 2014.. so from where I sit... I don't like it.. but I understand. If the sim is not ready for full 24/7 access then I will take my 3 day access for now and do my 1-4 hours a week until I can do better. There are also security issues involved with this.. and I would hate to see someone get what I paid $90 for because they were clever and dishonest so to me it is a no brainer and I can either be bent about it or start making lemonade.

Originally Posted By: Master
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
And looking at the poll on the actual BOS forum 70% of people are at least ok with the decision and only 6% are angry.


Their poll is flawed for many reasons and a lot of the angry people are not posting on their forum anymore (for various reasons). I, for example, did not take their poll and have never posted on their forum.



Perhaps if everyone participated in it it would be less flawed.

Originally Posted By: theOden
"they" = moderators.
Sorry for being unclear.
Could easily be misinterpreted now that I read it again.


sigh

Originally Posted By: JimD
So basically you guys want the developers to give up their weekends.

How many hours would a person want to play a buggy, limited alpha version anyway?

Unless we're all working 16 hours a day Tues,Wed,and Thursday, it seems easily possible to squeeze in the one or two hours that would satisfy on an Alpha version. It's not like we'll need a lot of time to do a big co-op mission with our squads involving dozens of planes-the sim doesn't have that capability yet.

In the big picture, we're giving money to keep flight sims going-that's what is important. Missing some play time on an alpha for the first week or two is not a big deal IMO.


This is my take as well.. and exactly what I meant in my previous post in this thread. Besides.. there will be no combat initially .. just flying. The DMs are not ready .. all the weapons are not ready.. it is an Alpha... not even Beta.

As disappointed as I am when I look at the posts in that thread I understand.. and I am a 40-75 hour week guy myself depending on if I am on call or not.. People who paid for premium even if they do not get the chance to take advantage of the limited access will still be ahead of the game.. and I have not heard anything on how the final pricing will be but if the pricing for the Premium/Standard editions upon release is an indication I cannot help but surmise .. and again this is just speculation on my part .. nothing official.. but I cannot help but think that the pricing will be such that it is better to buy the Premium as opposed to buying the standard and then getting the individual aircraft seperately..

Developer responses to Pre order limited access as reported in Developer Diary 38


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3857336 - 11/02/13 04:05 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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Sunchaser Offline
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Houston, Tx.
I wonder if someone will be working weekends when the full game is out in case the server crashes?

Weekend work is a fact of life and if I needed to work weekends to provide services paid for, you can bet I would and I would not be expecting sympathy from customers as seems to be the case here.

#3857339 - 11/02/13 04:12 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Sunchaser]  
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
I wonder if someone will be working weekends when the full game is out in case the server crashes?

Weekend work is a fact of life and if I needed to work weekends to provide services paid for, you can bet I would and I would not be expecting sympathy from customers as seems to be the case here.


Be all that as it may very well be... Hopefully by then it won't be crashing.. but if you look at DD 39 Loft said

Quote:
Our current estimation for 72 hours per week sessions is two months, after that early access will be provided 5 days a week with breaks for version updates which take time to prepare and server maintenance conducted.


.. so I doubt we will see weekends until shortly before release... Yes working weekends is a fact of life in some jobs.. but I have no idea of how thinsg are in Russia.. Heck for all we know they actually could already be working weekends ... but in any case.. given all the things that they all have said.. from the security issues that Jason mentioned to all the other stuff ... it is what it is.

All things considered this was a damned if you do damned if you don't proposition.. We had guys saying.. "It's September 21st ... where is the early access... ?!pitchafit" .. So I imagine if they had said we need to hold off for a month.. they still would have been called liars and thieves... sigh


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3857361 - 11/02/13 07:14 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Bearcat99]  
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theOden Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bearcat99
..
Originally Posted By: theOden
"they" = moderators.
Sorry for being unclear.
Could easily be misinterpreted now that I read it again.


sigh
..

Please keep on reading by all means.

#3857376 - 11/02/13 09:09 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Sunchaser]  
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knightgames Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sunchaser
I wonder if someone will be working weekends when the full game is out in case the server crashes?

Weekend work is a fact of life and if I needed to work weekends to provide services paid for, you can bet I would and I would not be expecting sympathy from customers as seems to be the case here.




You have trouble defining what services you paid for. You paid for early access - that's it. No one ever said when or how long. Understanding that the early release is ALPHA, then we will clearly be getting an unfinished buggy product that will need to be sorted out. What you or I expected is only what we imagined, and not what was promised by the developers. We can say that we thought we were getting X, Y or Z, but no one ever told us to expect that. We were only promised early access. The only thing we really have a right to complain about is if we didn't get early access. That is being fulfilled. 777 owes us nothing more - no matter how disappointed we may be in relation to our expectations.

#3857385 - 11/02/13 09:56 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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theOden Offline
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knightgames, while everything you say is 100% correct there's a huge difference from being legally right and customer right.
Usually, whatever you don't specify you leave to the customer to assume and when that assumption isn't met you lose the customer even if you win "in court".
For me, it's very much "what else important have they not revealed yet" for a long time ahead.

and yes, 777 have not lied one bit to this date and will probably not do that in the future either.

#3857386 - 11/02/13 09:57 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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HeinKill Offline
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So the poll is pretty close to 50-50. Half would still have preordered, half would not. That's quite a lot of potential revenue lost.

I had no expectations, just asked out of genuine interest. I guess the devs would be a little concerned about alienating half of their customer base, so they wouldn't have done so lightly. Unless they didn't think it all the way through, which I doubt.

So this must be an unfortunate but technically necessary first step that they had not anticipated. I have no reason to believe they deliberately misled anyone - they are building a flight sim franchise, not running a Nigerian bank scam, so they want to build a large and loyal fanbase. It was always a risky move offering alpha access instead of the usual closed beta, but I guess they needed to generate some cash flow.

Having made that decision and taken that risk, they are now dealing with the reality and the reality is that half of their customers are unhappy. Doesn't matter if that feeling is justified or not, perception is reality. Yes, I have already taken their money for now but I want them in the future playing the game and buying the additional aircraft, mods, maps and campaigns that I will be selling.

If it was my business, I would be asking myself, what can I do to turn it around and make those 50% happy again?

I would throw another sweetener their way, and not just a custom skin. It would go something like this (you don't have to pay me for the copywriting Jason, it's all yours...)

Dear Founder: a understand that a lot of you are unhappy with the early access program that we are able to offer at this time. We wish it could have been different but technical and practical requirements dictate this is the best way to go. Nonetheless we recognise that for at least half of you, we have not met your expectations and you do not feel you are getting what you paid for.

Therefore we would like to make the gesture of offering our Founders the following: (insert free mod, discount or other freebie here). Founders will receive the code to redeem this gift in their email when it is available.


If you are a buyer who is satisfied, you don't need to redeem the gift voucher, if you are unhappy, they have at least recognised your concerns with some compensation.

Just a thought.


[Linked Image]
#3857388 - 11/02/13 10:03 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: knightgames]  
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Brigstock Offline
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Originally Posted By: knightgames


You paid for early access - that's it. No one ever said when or how long.......... 777 owes us nothing more - no matter how disappointed we may be in relation to our expectations.



And that is exactly why I'm so pissed off. It should have been said up front. Early access is just that, early access, not limited early access or paid to beta access or anything else. 777 should have been more upfront about it. Early access means being given alpha builds to try out.

There are some here who paid full price as a gesture to support the devs, some of us didn't. Those that did have been pretty calm and some berating those that are upset at not getting what they perceived was to happen

Some of us paid full price to get a look at the game before it was ready for release. I don't think anyone expected a finished product. I for one knew what to expect. I knew it would be content and feature limited, we are 6 months of of release. I was presented with a choice when I pre ordered, I could have paid $49 for standard or $89 for premium editions.

I wouldn't normally pre order a game for full price, especially one at $89. But the promise of early access was the tipping point. So with Autumn access offered with the premium package i went for that.

Now the irony is that the $89 restricted access tues-thurs is not suitable for my lifestyle, long midweek working hours and a wife and 2 kids means at best I'll get 15 minutes here and there if I even get that. Come winter when the $49 access kicks in I'll have the weekends to jump in and play for hours If I choose to.

If 777 had been more up front I'll have gone for the cheaper package, as it is with the benefit of hindsight and a time machine I'd not have bothered at all.

As for 777 owing us nothing, well they owe me $89 of something.

#3857397 - 11/02/13 11:42 AM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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Lemme guess. Next time you'll be extremely cautious and spend the bare minimum?

#3857409 - 11/02/13 12:18 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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Yep, they owe you a premium version of BOS to be released Q2 2014, early access starting 12th of November, some founder skins, a couple of free weapon mods and a golden founder tag.

what are you missing?

Last edited by BKHZ_Furbs; 11/02/13 12:18 PM.
#3857415 - 11/02/13 12:32 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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Oh Furbs, don't be like that smile
It's the "early" access, that too many caught as a surprise to be labeled as an expected setup.

I have a few other issues with the setup, but I'm quite a grumpy old man lately (Ben Dover disaster learning c# for nothing, 12 years arma getting very senior in sqf scripting banged into a stop BIS going steam exclusive in arma3 and now this "login and ask us if it's ok to fly this hour" coupled with restricted early access) so I'll try'n'keep low smile

I'aint'bitter (haha)

#3857430 - 11/02/13 01:44 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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#3857440 - 11/02/13 02:53 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Brigstock Offline
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Yep, they owe you a premium version of BOS to be released Q2 2014, early access starting 12th of November, some founder skins, a couple of free weapon mods and a golden founder tag.

what are you missing?


Don't care about founders skins or forum tags or weapon mods. I bought in for the early access, which is now limited to 3 days a week for the next 2 months. Which was never mentioned right up until end of the the early access pre order.

So what am I missing, what I paid for in the beginning, the early access.

Great for everyone who has week nights free to do what they like or bought in to support the genre. But not great for me.

EDIT: anyone want to buy my licence, $89 and it's yours.

#3857456 - 11/02/13 04:04 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Brigstock]  
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Originally Posted By: Brigstock
Originally Posted By: knightgames


You paid for early access - that's it. No one ever said when or how long.......... 777 owes us nothing more - no matter how disappointed we may be in relation to our expectations.



And that is exactly why I'm so pissed off. It should have been said up front. Early access is just that, early access, not limited early access or paid to beta access or anything else. 777 should have been more upfront about it. Early access means being given alpha builds to try out.

There are some here who paid full price as a gesture to support the devs, some of us didn't. Those that did have been pretty calm and some berating those that are upset at not getting what they perceived was to happen

Some of us paid full price to get a look at the game before it was ready for release. I don't think anyone expected a finished product. I for one knew what to expect. I knew it would be content and feature limited, we are 6 months of of release. I was presented with a choice when I pre ordered, I could have paid $49 for standard or $89 for premium editions.

I wouldn't normally pre order a game for full price, especially one at $89. But the promise of early access was the tipping point. So with Autumn access offered with the premium package i went for that.

Now the irony is that the $89 restricted access tues-thurs is not suitable for my lifestyle, long midweek working hours and a wife and 2 kids means at best I'll get 15 minutes here and there if I even get that. Come winter when the $49 access kicks in I'll have the weekends to jump in and play for hours If I choose to.

If 777 had been more up front I'll have gone for the cheaper package, as it is with the benefit of hindsight and a time machine I'd not have bothered at all.

As for 777 owing us nothing, well they owe me $89 of something.


I do understand the frustration. I'll be honest by saying that if the Tuesday - Thursday access affected me I might feel differently. I'd probably be mad too. I still believe that 777 is fulfilling their part despite what we expected or wanted and I think I'd believe that even if the access affected me. I wouldn't like it but I'd believe I'm getting what I paid for - early access.... and an FW-190.

#3857488 - 11/02/13 05:50 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Brigstock]  
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Originally Posted By: Brigstock
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Yep, they owe you a premium version of BOS to be released Q2 2014, early access starting 12th of November, some founder skins, a couple of free weapon mods and a golden founder tag.

what are you missing?


Don't care about founders skins or forum tags or weapon mods. I bought in for the early access, which is now limited to 3 days a week for the next 2 months. Which was never mentioned right up until end of the the early access pre order.

So what am I missing, what I paid for in the beginning, the early access.

Great for everyone who has week nights free to do what they like or bought in to support the genre. But not great for me.

EDIT: anyone want to buy my licence, $89 and it's yours.


Brigstock, i understand your disappointment with the limited access, iam too, they could of been more upfront about the time limit i also agree, but i still think binning the whole thing is a bit of a overreaction.

So you get your $89 back, are you planning on buying the sim at a later date?

#3857517 - 11/02/13 07:15 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: HeinKill]  
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I would be surprised if anyone can get a refund, a few people have said they are trying, but thats about it.

#3857520 - 11/02/13 07:19 PM Re: BoS preorder poll [Re: Speyer]  
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theOden Offline
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Originally Posted By: Speyer
I would be surprised if anyone can get a refund, a few people have said they are trying, but thats about it.

Nope, all one gets is an offer to sell their product to someone else.
"Let the disgruntled customer sell our product" - so funny I faint thinking about it.

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