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#3844854 - 10/02/13 05:05 PM Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT?  
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So the torpedoes specifications in that "Realistic" game are not realistic.

Well, I kind of knew that but, here is the discussion at the Matrix website regarding that "Realistic" game and the "Realistic" torpedoes:

"So the "range" of some weapons in Command is dictated not my the weapon itself, but by the limitations of the AI in handling it. I found this revelation surprising."

"This is one of those things that needs to be made clear from the get-go. I am also surprised by it. I never like using the database to manipulate the AI's actions"

"The reason why this is done is you don't want the AI (or the player) to shoot at a target at the very edge of their weapon's range but instead shoot at a range that does not let the target quickly get out of range. If you look at early naval simulations you'll see this issue consistently (so SA-5 is shot at me at max range, I quickly reverse my course moving out of range, wasted SAM shot, rinse repeat).
If you look in our manual go to 8.6 and read our DLZ Why it Matters essay. Sums up many of the issues surrounding this kind of thing."

The player is handled because the game assumes that he does not know what he is doing, and would not learn through a couple of mistakes he would come to make.

Gee when I play a game that I paid $100,00 and change, I want to learn something and grow through my discoveries of the details of the game, instead of having some pre-chewed baby food delivered, not at $108.25.

Now, let's take a look at real hard facts about the Mk 48 ADCAP: in Jane's 2002-2003 (10 years ago) the specs was that the max speed was 55Kt and the RANGE on a flat run was 38 Km @ 55Kt or 50 Km @ 40Kt.

Meaning the range for a fully fueled MK 48 is 20.5NM at max speed of 55Kt, and the ride is roughly 22 minutes long.
And the range for a fully fueled MK48 is 26.99NM at speed of 40Kt, and the ride is roughly 40 minutes.

As you can see we are so far from the 6nm range, and I am starting to have second thoughts about having purchased that game.

1 International Knot = 1 nautical mile/hour= 1.852 meters/hour =6.076 feet/hour. Distance = Rate x Time

So in the case of Sub A (us) shooting a torp. on the 000 at 55Kt (Hypothetically reach that speed instantly out of the tube), to Sub B (Whatever country), when they are at 10 nm away from each other. Sub A is stationary and Sub B is fleeting away at 30Kt on a flat trajectory (never happens). Every minute, the torp. gains 766 meters on Sub B, it will take roughly 24 minutes to reach Sub B. The Torpedo will run out of fuel before it reaches Sub B. Now, in the case the Torpedo is launched from Sub A at a speed of 40Kt, the torp. will gain on Sub B, 308 meters every minute. At the end of its run the torp. will be 5,892 meters away from Sub B. It would take 60 minutes for the torp. to reach Sub B.

In that case at which distance should Sub A start to consider a launch at Sub B to begin to reach it? For a speed of 55kn, 8.77nm; and for a speed of 40kt, 6.81nm.

I don’t have the acceleration rate of the Mk 48 ADCAP, meaning how long does it take for that torp to reach it's programmed speed, but I would bet it is very fast, considering its engine.

As you can see we are far from the 6nm for a high speed torpedo range including acceleration, deceleration and re-attack maneuvers if any. I would personally shoot between 7 and 8nm at 55Kt and between 5 and 6nm at 40kt.

Now if that game would calculate the real torpedo fuel consumption, acceleration, deceleration, re-attack maneuvers instead of cutting corners, the game would BE MORE realistic.

Now, let's take a look at something else. If Sub B is getting away this is what we get, but what about if Sub B is closing on your 000 and Sub A is traveling at 5 Kt?....Then you can shoot that torpedo from a longer distance, as the distance gained on Sub B per minute, is greater since you are closing in on each others. And The realistic game tells you the Torpedo range is still 6nm. At that point I am asking for a refund!

Then again, I wonder if in "Tom Clancy SSN" the Torp. fuel consumption is realistically modeled. After all Tom Clancy is not a Geeky Week End Warrior!

To be continued!


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#3844892 - 10/02/13 05:53 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Hondo Offline
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You will help your point by avoiding these strange colors, they make your text hard to read.

#3844910 - 10/02/13 06:30 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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jazjar Offline
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There are different versions of the mark 48,check which one you are using. The database is something that has values that can be changed easily in a patch, ONE mistake in one weapon you like to use because it's American doesn't prove crap.

#3844945 - 10/02/13 07:25 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Gunnyhighway Offline
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Ha Ha Ha!...there is only one Mrk 48 ADCAP. It had 5 mods 10 years ago, which specifications are not public.

You did not read the entire post!

Nice try!....Shot again!


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#3844995 - 10/02/13 08:30 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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There is an ADCAP MOD 5,6, and 7. Which one do you speak of?

#3845025 - 10/02/13 09:17 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Gunnyhighway Offline
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Gee!...You forgot Mod 3!...Wikipedia is not that accurate, the Jane's publication is, on the other hand.

As I said, read thoroughly the post, all you need to know is there. You don't have a mod that decrease it's range, do you?...Please!...Read the post!


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#3845281 - 10/03/13 09:03 AM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Hondo Offline
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Can you give a link to where the behavior is mentioned?

#3845356 - 10/03/13 01:18 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Dimitris Offline
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The game does allow you to take longer-range shots manually, by performing a bearing-only launch (Ctrl+F1). Once the torp is out you can take direct control of it and guide it as you wish.

The 6nm limit is there only to prevent the AI from taking hopeless long-range shots.

Thanks!

#3845361 - 10/03/13 01:27 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Dimitris Offline
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Ragnar has provided a more comprehensive explanation here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=2122683&postcount=11

#3845696 - 10/04/13 12:40 AM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Herman Online content
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Originally Posted By: Gunnyhighway
So the torpedoes specifications in that "Realistic" game are not realistic.


I think that your mathematics, calculations, and logic are correct. You understand that the reduced firing range was a Harpoon work-around solution to help the AI so that the targets could not run away. Although the firing range might be only 6nm, the fuel range was usually 20nm or so. The 14nm difference between firing and fuel range was to allow the torpedo to catch the target.

The PlayersDB also used this work-around solution, but not all H3 databases do. Some databases used the ideas you postulated (firing range = fuel range). I have tried them and I have never been hit by a torpedo fired against me. Against AI targets, the fuel=firing range databases seem okay since the AI might continue sailing right into the torpedo. Against a human, the AI-fired torpedoes are easy to escape.

Harpoon is hampered by the fact that the ships can turn and accelerate instantly. MNO uses a physics package to restrict units from instantaneous turns or acceleration. This helps, but only serves to reduce the chase range. Instead of needing 14nm to catch a target, it might only need 8-10nm. It is an improvement, but still not a perfect solution.

I think your ideas are good. The blanket firing range of #nm is easy for players and DB editors to use because it is fixed. Unfortunately, DB editors must make assumptions on the behaviour of the target. For example, PlayersDB assumes that the targets will run at 35kts to escape. Therefore, targets that are slower or faster than this basic assumption are still governed by the same firing range.

Your idea to have the firing range calculated according to the data from the target is very sophisticated and complex. By incorporating target data, you would know the max speed and manoeuvrability of the target and thus the torpedo would be allowed to fire at longer ranges when engaging a lumbering merchant vessel capable of only 20kts as opposed a shorter engagement range for an agile frigate capable of 30 knots. The firing solution would allow for X seconds for the ship to turn and X seconds to accelerate in the opposite direction. Your suggested firing solution would be very advanced.

I think it would be great. Unfortunately, both Harpoon and MNO games seem to rely upon pre-calculated solutions. I think you have a great concept, though. smile


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#3845699 - 10/04/13 12:44 AM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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@ Dimitris,firstly congratulations on the launch of Command, I noticed in Baloogan's great video of the submarine warfare tutorial that neither the mark 48 wire guidance system or the towed array seemed to break/take damage even when the sub was moving at high speed and taking quite tight turns, is this feature which was present in the ancient Microprose classic "Red Storm Rising" planned for implementation in Command at some point? Thanks.

Last edited by sonarman; 10/04/13 01:05 AM.
#3845782 - 10/04/13 05:36 AM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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@sonarman: Thank you. Yes, we plan to implement this in the future.

#3845909 - 10/04/13 01:59 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Herman]  
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Thank you Herman.

It would only seem realistic to me, as a good sim should be.

I got peeved, because of the price of the game. It would have been a $30.00 game, I would have left it alone, as it could have been expected.

Then there was that explanation on the Matrix website from one of the developers that things were done this way, only because of running away targets. Target, don't always run away, they fight back.

On those good words, I am going to read your review now.

Thank's again.


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#3845960 - 10/04/13 04:01 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Hondo]  
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If you refer about the link to a website where it is told that the game does not want the AI or the player to shoot at the edge of the circle of a torpedo's range:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3421641


Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.
#3845967 - 10/04/13 04:21 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Section 8.6 of the manual is entitled "DLZ and why it matters". It seems to address these issues fairly directly.

What I'd like to know is the actual doctrine of Mk48 usage. When I was active-duty, the focus was more on Training and Doctrine than what some manufacturer's brochure (or worse yet, Jane's) might say.

This sort of thing has been a real problem in many military sims of the past: Relying on "book" values which bear little resemblance to how the weapons are actually used. The presumption being (perhaps incorrectly) that the people who devised the protocols for using the weapon would have a pretty good idea of what actually works.

Of course, it's fun to play with what-if's and all that. But I'd like to start with how the things actually get used in the Real World, and work my way back from there.

Is this just too classified for anyone to know for sure? I was USAF, so the typical rust-picker would rather tell a Chinese spy than reveal anything to me ;))) (My uncle was a CPO, so that's aimed right at him!).

#3845974 - 10/04/13 04:38 PM Re: Command Modern Air Naval Operation with a 6nm range for the Mark 48 ADCAP, WUT? [Re: Gunnyhighway]  
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Yo Kondor, I love your post.

This is true but the way you bring it up is so twisted to fit your own purpose!

Last edited by Gunnyhighway; 10/05/13 03:10 PM.

Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

This is not the bars that keep the Tiger in the cage, this is the space between the bars.

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