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#3839396 - 09/19/13 10:07 PM CARENADO B1900 FSX  
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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3839615 - 09/20/13 01:31 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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Link works for me, looks good!


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#3839618 - 09/20/13 01:41 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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Looks great, but I assume it will have the typical Carenado light G1000 and no engine problem systems modeled which is hard to go back to after the Flight1 B200.

I keep hoping Carenado will do a more realistic approach to go along with the beautiful textures and models.


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#3839655 - 09/20/13 03:24 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: kludger]  
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Originally Posted By: kludger
Looks great, but I assume it will have the typical Carenado light G1000 and no engine problem systems modeled which is hard to go back to after the Flight1 B200.

I keep hoping Carenado will do a more realistic approach to go along with the beautiful textures and models.


Yeah, I have the same issue going back to any of their GA planes after the A2A 172.

If they want to step up their game they should consider partnering with another studio that can better code advanced systems (such as the aforementioned damage system).

What I really really really want now is a Cessna Caravan with a persistent ware and damage model, and realistic G1000.

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#3840223 - 09/21/13 06:45 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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Can't you guys take any "exceptional" models as they are and not make them a new standard?

If I was a payware developer, I would be utterly turned off by such comments as I would have to pour even more work into an aircraft without ever being able to raise prices to compensate for the extra effort in turn.

#3840241 - 09/21/13 07:45 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Can't you guys take any "exceptional" models as they are and not make them a new standard?

If I was a payware developer, I would be utterly turned off by such comments as I would have to pour even more work into an aircraft without ever being able to raise prices to compensate for the extra effort in turn.


Maybe you are reading things too defensively, nobody is bashing the exceptional models, all I said is I want systems modeling along with the eyecandy...

I own plenty of Carenado payware including the recent SR22 and C90, and all I am saying is I hope they add actual systems modeling with their newer aircraft.

Just eyecandy was great when Carenado aircraft cost $25 (C185 etc), but if you compare their recent costs which is much higher then it doesn't compare so well with the competition. For example the Carenado B200 costs $40 and is eyecandy only, while the Flight1 B200 costs $60 and includes a full G1000 model, engine damage and wear, icing etc, then you can see where Carenado's lack of systems modeling pales in comparison, especially since the F1 B200 has exceptional modeling and textures too.

It's a free market, and as a paying customer who buys these I'm free to share my opinion, I hope the payware developer is indeed turned off by my comments and does something about it to include systems modeling in their next aircraft, I actually want to buy a Carenado aircraft with systems modeled...


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#3840698 - 09/22/13 11:54 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: kludger]  
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Originally Posted By: kludger
It's a free market, and as a paying customer who buys these I'm free to share my opinion, I hope the payware developer is indeed turned off by my comments and does something about it to include systems modeling in their next aircraft, I actually want to buy a Carenado aircraft with systems modeled...


And I say that this is not going to happen as long as add-ons are still being bought by the numbers.


Btw: There's a gauge called RealEngine that does add some systems modeling.
http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/fslib.php?do=copyright&fid=168686 (realengine_v14.zip)

#3840726 - 09/23/13 02:26 AM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Can't you guys take any "exceptional" models as they are and not make them a new standard?

If I was a payware developer, I would be utterly turned off by such comments as I would have to pour even more work into an aircraft without ever being able to raise prices to compensate for the extra effort in turn.


If they stepped up their game, id pay more for the product. No one said anything about carenado being "trapped" at their current price point.


For me it boils down to time. Ive only got so much time to sim, and lots of makers are now releaseiing top tier products. My time (and money) reward those who give me the most return.


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#3840913 - 09/23/13 05:37 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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Originally Posted By: AggressorBLUE
For me it boils down to time. Ive only got so much time to sim, and lots of makers are now releaseiing top tier products. My time (and money) reward those who give me the most return.


And a lot of people don't have time or patience to obtain a virtual license and type rating and will prefer simple "hop in and go" planes.


Consider this:
Are you really giving a high-priced, complex plane the flying time necessary to justify the extra money and effort that went into it? Or are you jumping ship on the next release anyway and leave it dusting away in the hangar?

#3841074 - 09/24/13 12:24 AM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Are you really giving a high-priced, complex plane the flying time necessary to justify the extra money and effort that went into it? Or are you jumping ship on the next release anyway and leave it dusting away in the hangar?


If they loaded it up once, went through a full start-up and shutdown procedure, then shelved it, yet feel they got a good value out of it, then what do you care? Your same argument for lightly modeled aircraft being of value to you works for them regardless of how much time they spend with it.

Although I'm not flying FSX very much these days I can take the argument over to the DCS A-10C. Paid $50 for it and even though I'm not as proficient in it as most guys around I still get amazed when I hit a switch or button I didn't know existed and something new happens. Complex aircraft have more layers of discover than non-complex ones, but that doesn't make either any more or less enjoyable. But to model complexity costs money - thus the price point.

Still trying to figure out what your argument is.

popcorn

BeachAV8R



#3841075 - 09/24/13 12:26 AM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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I haven't given the B1900 a whirl..but it would be tough for me if it is lightly modeled because it shares a lot of systems commonality with the actual 200/B200/300s I've flown in my career. I'd be like going to see Iron Eagle with an aviation enthusiast... But if the price point matches the complexity, I'd be fine with it because I'd go in knowing what I'm paying for (ie: Strike Fighters DLC versus DCS DLC..)

BeachAV8R



#3841107 - 09/24/13 02:23 AM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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I tend to prefer a middle of the road approach these days. Some general systems that I actually touch (meaning... I have the correct electrical/pneumatic configuration for the systems I'm trying to run, etc.), but not so much things like engine oil life, or contamination, oxygen bottle charge, etc...

OK, for a GA pilot those are things he might be in contact with. But do airline pilots ever actually touch those aspects of the plane they fly?

Most of the things I am familiar with regarding engine health for airliners tends to be annunciators for issues/conditions that should be recorded in the log book for reference. Example, the engine spent some seconds in a prescribed temperature range, it's logged by the crew and the flight continues. And from there, I am generally under the impression that the aircraft log book is referenced by maintenance who follow up these things, not the pilot personally.


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#3841222 - 09/24/13 11:14 AM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
Still trying to figure out what your argument is.


Stop. Trying. To. Have. Companies. Always. Kick. #%&*$#. Up. A. Notch.

It will all come back to bite me in the end.

What good is doing free stuff if no one's using it because you didn't model compressor blade heating?
And what advantage do I get when I actually implement compressor blade heating when it's an add-on standard anyway?

#3841240 - 09/24/13 12:35 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Stop. Trying. To. Have. Companies. Always. Kick. #%&*$#. Up. A. Notch.


OK, so you spelled it out.

Now my question to you is - at what point in the past should companies have stopped striving for more realism? Was it in the 80s with Commodore 64 wire frame graphics? Or the 90s with Jane's titles? Or FS98 or 2000 or 2002?

Just curious where we crossed the threshold for you?

BeachAV8R



#3841241 - 09/24/13 12:36 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: adlabs6]  
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Originally Posted By: adlabs6
But do airline pilots ever actually touch those aspects of the plane they fly?


My personal rule is to never touch a dusty button.

BeachAV8R



#3841376 - 09/24/13 06:55 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
Still trying to figure out what your argument is.


Stop. Trying. To. Have. Companies. Always. Kick. #%&*$#. Up. A. Notch.

It will all come back to bite me in the end.

What good is doing free stuff if no one's using it because you didn't model compressor blade heating?
And what advantage do I get when I actually implement compressor blade heating when it's an add-on standard anyway?


I think most of us have different levels of expectations for freeware vs payware, at least I do, especially on the top end of pricy payware.

So unless you are trying to compete with the top-end $40-$80 payware (which normally includes deeper systems modeling) I don't think you need to worry about the systems modeling competition with them.

In the $20 payware area is where freeware sometimes competes well, usually there is limited systems modeling if any at all in that type of payware, so the difference from lovingly detailed freeware is not much if both have quality modeling, textures and FDE, I don't see that changing currently in that $20 bracket, other than from a couple of developers (Ants Airplanes, Sibwings etc) that do some systems modeling, most other payware in that $20 bracket is just a model/textures/panel with basic FSX systems.

That was my original point above, Carenado used to be in that $20 bracket where lack of systems was expected and fine, but now that they are in the $40-$45 bracket, my expectations are higher, and they are starting to pale in comparison with others in the same pricepoint (F1, A2A, RealAir etc.) and I say that not to bash them but in the hope that they raise their game or partner with someone to provide the systems modeling that these high end GA models deserve.


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#3841432 - 09/24/13 10:23 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Originally Posted By: AggressorBLUE
For me it boils down to time. Ive only got so much time to sim, and lots of makers are now releaseiing top tier products. My time (and money) reward those who give me the most return.


And a lot of people don't have time or patience to obtain a virtual license and type rating and will prefer simple "hop in and go" planes.


Consider this:
Are you really giving a high-priced, complex plane the flying time necessary to justify the extra money and effort that went into it? Or are you jumping ship on the next release anyway and leave it dusting away in the hangar?


The A2A C172 is a get in and go bird. I actually avoid the PMDG stuff because I don't have time for it.

Last edited by AggressorBLUE; 09/24/13 10:24 PM.

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#3841438 - 09/24/13 10:38 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Heretic]  
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Originally Posted By: Heretic
Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
Still trying to figure out what your argument is.


Stop. Trying. To. Have. Companies. Always. Kick. #%&*$#. Up. A. Notch.

It will all come back to bite me in the end.

What good is doing free stuff if no one's using it because you didn't model compressor blade heating?
And what advantage do I get when I actually implement compressor blade heating when it's an add-on standard anyway?


Wait, are you serious? No one said anything complaining about free stuff. There will ALWAYS be a 'market' for free stuff!

And frankly, if constant progression is something that frustrates you, software development (Pro or hobby) might not be for you.

In any event, I'm willing to meet devs half way. I don't need compressor blade heating exactly modeled, but I'm tired of being able to redline my engine everywhere and not being punished for it. I think a great example here is the Aerosoft Twin otter X extended. Sure, you can run the turbines hot on a short take off roll, maybe even a bit to climb out above some mountains, but if you keep it up YOU WILL blow an engine. We need to move this area of the hobby forward a bit.

I'm willing to bet Beach doesn't firewall the throttles on takeoff and leave them there till final approach. He manages power, pushing engines when called for (short field take off, climbing over weather or terrain, dog fighting rouge C208's, etc.) and pulls back.

I think I'm being fair here. My general issue with Carenado, is I see lots of people say they're "moving up in the world." I guess I just see them making bigger planes, not bigger products. If that's what they want to stick to, that's their prerogative versus my money.

*Ok, I'll be honest, I'm still a sucker for a pretty looking airplane, I'll probably still buy this thing.*


My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / GTX 1070/ 16 Gigs DDR3 RAM / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

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#3841697 - 09/25/13 03:53 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: BeachAV8R]  
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Originally Posted By: BeachAV8R
...


Originally Posted By: AggressorBLUE
...


Originally Posted By: kludger
...


Imagine you're pouring hundreds of hours into a flightsim model. You wrap it up idiot-proof, you upload it to the usual places, you don't stick a price tag on it. You expect at least a bit of recognition*. It does not materialize. So you try again. Models with a pricetag seem to be pretty popular, so you step up your game for the next round. Less sleep, more polys, more high res textures, more risk of a burnout**, sure can do. Should make for an accomplishment.
And then you read that the payware companies, already two steps ahead of you, should add yet another step.
The bad thing is, that there is money involved so the pricetaggers are more inclined to actually listen.
And you just sit there, already knowing that you barely stand a chance to get your "made someone happy" badge and your chance is getting even more slim.

It's like being the mentally disabled kid handing someone a drawing made with passion and getting shoved aside without even a faked "Well done." because another kid did a 90% accurate replica of the Mona Lisa at its parents' insistence.
But they want to have a 95% version of said replica before they will buy a print even though the differences are hardly notable.
And the worst thing is, that the amount of people with that attitude is way too high. Other flightsim forums are basically flooded with payware talk.
Announce the release of a freeware weather engine? One page of replies. At best. An early announcement of a new payware weather engine with 10% faster weather injection compared to the freeware one, a more "accurate" fog layer display and 50 customization options that no one ever uses. For $50 or more. The result? Five pages. At least. Rumours about your favourite payware company. Twenty pages. Preview of a freeware plane. Two pages.
Why?

Keeping that in mind...I don't understand what drives you people to want more of everything.
You're playing a simplified consumer flight simulator on a desktop PC in your [room] and all the high res textures and systems in the world won't compensate for that. You don't even have the smell of AVGAS or Jet-A or the stomach-shaking acceleration or the ability to view exactly your house from above and everything else that makes real flying special. So what's the point whether or not a switch actually does something?
Are you such bad pilots that you *need* systems and failures to make you operate the aircraft within stated limitations and checklists? Is your imagination so utterly dumbed down or dead that you need everything chiseled into stone, accounted for, pre-chewed, pre-swallowed and pre-digested?
Isn't keeping it simple actually better than slowly working towards a sim engine/hardware/monetary overload?
Why do you think the out of memory issue, pretentious talk about virtual address space limits, pseudo-remedy tweaks, cries for a new MSFS and complaints about low framerates correlates with praise for ever more detailed add-ons?
I don't get it.
I just don't.



Yes, this was basically a "BAWWWWWWWW" post. Send some tissues my way.



*Recognition is the equivalent to money for freeware.
** It exists, especially for freeware.

#3841722 - 09/25/13 04:53 PM Re: CARENADO B1900 FSX [Re: Stormtrooper]  
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I hear what you are saying Heretic and I can understand those feelings.

Personally I'm a simmer, I have been so since the days of my first flight sims on my c-64 (Microprose F-19 Stealth Fighter, F15 Strike Eagle etc) where I was amazed by all the systems modeled in those early sims, and I have always enjoyed and looked for the deepest sim... while I appreciate some freeware FSX planes that are lovingly created, if there is a deeper sim alternative, that is what I will always enjoy flying more whether there is a price tag attached or not. I'm not able to be a real pilot so I want my sim to simulate as much of the real plane as possible.

FSX has been stable for a long time, and most of us hardcore FSX users have been flying it for many years and moved on from enjoying just the basic FSX default level model and sim depth and inop panel switches and indestructible engines.

Personally I'm very glad this stability has allowed the payware teams to produce some amazing revolutionary sim enhancements to FSX, that make it shine and compete with other modern sims (even study sims), without that I think many of us would have moved on long ago.

I wish you well with your freeware projects, but if your goal on freeware development is primarily for recognition and not personal use first, then I think you have a tough road ahead unless the freeware you are producing is revolutionary or fills some gap that is not otherwise filled. This is the same with modding for any games or sims but especially in FSX where there is so much high quality payware available and the bar keeps being raised (thankfully).


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