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#3832540 - 09/06/13 01:43 AM CH josytick spare potentiometers.  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Since many here use this stick, anyone know where someone from outside of USA can buy replacement potentiometers for CH Fighterstick USB?

The cart in his "spare-parts" site now redirect to a page with reseler list and some pop-up with Chinese characters and email address. The contatc on email on pop-up are unable to help and end the the conversation suggest "buy a new stick on Amazon"...

Contact with some reselers on the list no result.

The CTS, manufacturer of potentiometers (HP-100A 100K) dont have this model in catalog and apparently does not sell to end user. Online vendors like Digikey dont have this model in list. Probable are a exclusive model.

Note, the stick are out of warranty (thats means no manufacturer obligation in provide replacement parts...) but in perfect shape and unless the pot work well.
The cost to eventually send to CH in USA - as someone can suggest - is impracticable.
The stik belongs to a friend and I know someone else in another country with the same problem for getting replacement pot's.

The potentiometer presents spikes, the wire connectors were tightened with pliers (suggested in "Hangar") and and finally welded.

At last measure the pot case are disassembled, all washed with isopropyl alcohol, re greased, reasembled and tested, improved somewhat but still defective. The pot's resistive trail presents wear grooves. I know the reputation of longevity of these products, but nothing lasts forever.

The only option now is "trow in garbage and buy a new (of another brand)"?

Sokol1

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#3832760 - 09/06/13 02:00 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Have you inquired with CH Products about simply buying replacement potentiometers from them? The shipping on that should be a lot less than shipping the sticks to them (and back) for repair.

#3833026 - 09/06/13 09:47 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Sokol1,
I should have a couple Ch pots in my parts bin. Pm me and we'll work something out if you want.

Last edited by Bohemond; 09/06/13 09:48 PM.
#3833686 - 09/08/13 11:33 AM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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I attempted to work this out with GriffonBR over at the ED Forums. The video he posted did not appear that he'd applied the calibration settings in Control Manager.

This is one I shot:


13 years on this ol' FighterStick.


He (or you) may have. That said, when I checked into postage to Brazil from here, eek

You'd only need a 100k Ohm POT with the same dimensions of the D Shaft and POT itself.


Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.


#3837282 - 09/15/13 06:01 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Bob Church Offline
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Hi,

Standard pots won't work. The active range, the zone in which the resistance changes as the pot is moved, normally covers the full rotation, something around 270 degrees. Joysticks can move that far without gearing, so the CH stick pots, like most others that were built for joysticks, have the active range squeezed into approximately 60 degrees at the center of rotation. It will still turn the full 270, but there will be no control surface movement outside of the center 60 degrees or so. Using 270 and 60, the pot will show no change in resistance from one end out to about 105 degrees, then the entire resistance will change between the 105 degree point and the 165 degree point (the 60 degree), then show no further response for the 165 degree point to the end point. The design of the joystick will include physical stops at center +/- 30 degrees just because the handle is limited by the sticks physical design.

The value of the pots is not particularly important. The 100K was what worked with most old analog gameports, and they've just kept using those. They'd work with values outside of that, I'd think anything from 10K to 250K.

CTS used to make a commercial version of the pot. It was meant for float sensors, joysticks, things that couldn't handle that full 270 degree rotation. I'm guessing here, but the 100As were probably that pot, maybe with a special shaft form. The only thing that's electrically changed is the way the pot has the resistance squeezed into the center. Other than that, the only thing different is that resistance location, and to fix it they make a different silk-screen to put the resistive ink pattern down.

Anyway, if you put a full rotation pot in it, you'll only get about 20% of the resolution you should since you'll only be moving it through the center 60 degrees but the active resistance area covers the full 270 degrees, so rather than 256 steps between min and max as you do with the special pots, you only get maybe the center 20% or so.

If you can't get them through CH and you don't want to pay the setup for the special silkscreen, probably the best place is to by used sticks off eBay. The gameport sticks were the same as those in the USB sticks with the narrow center range. If GriffonBR is still having problems, it will be the first one I can recall that couldn't be fixed with the isopropyl alcohol cleaning that Sokol mentioned.

On other thought. If you rotate the special 60 degree pots through their range, there will be two spikes. One as it comes onto the center 60 degrees, a second when it leaves the center degrees. You can usually feel it a a little "bumps" as you rotate it and it crosses the beginning and end of the active area where the ink pattern has changed. In the video that was posted, did he have the pots in the stick when the tests were run and were the trim wheels centered? If not, they could have been nothing more than the little bump as it entered the active zone and as it left the active zone.

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

#3837345 - 09/15/13 08:36 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Bob Church]  
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Originally Posted By: Bob Church
The value of the pots is not particularly important. The 100K was what worked with most old analog gameports, and they've just kept using those. They'd work with values outside of that, I'd think anything from 10K to 250K.

I'm guessing that's because modern joystick designs with digital gameport and USB interfaces use the pots not as resistors, but as voltage dividers?

#3837387 - 09/15/13 10:29 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Bob Church Offline
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Hi NamelessPFG,

Yes, exactly so. They just follow the voltage on the center terminal and take that as a percentage of the reference voltage, usually just the 5 volt supply, to come up with whatever position the pot is in.

Best regards,

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

#3837411 - 09/16/13 12:28 AM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Sokol1 Offline
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Quote:
Have you inquired with CH Products about simply buying replacement potentiometers from them?


Yes, seems that they close theyr online store. And a email conversation end as I related above...

Bob Church,

Thnaks for the tips.

Beyond the issue of the potentiometer course degrees (60), there is the fact that the axis of potentiometer is part of the gimbal (without potentiometer in place the gimbal disassembles)...

So, to use a commercial potentiometer need one with:

- 60 degrees of rotation
- axis with the same diameter and length, bushing instead thread.
- Same D recess on axis

Small chance to find one that fulfill these requirements...

This model is similar:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CTS-100k-Ohm-Rot...=item565b46f902

But the code suggest that are 270 ones.

Well, I am thinking in try a different alternative:



Are 13 bits sensor build for use in joystick/rudder... allow 8192 points of resolution in 180 degrees, work on 5v like a potentiometer (+5v, signal, gnd).

Theoretically, if turned only 60 degrees (~33%) - case of joystick - this sensor give 2730 points of resolution. Similar to are get in MFG Crosswind pedal.

Since the Fighterstick USB controller are 8 bits (256 point) I will got 256 points with 60 degrees movement after calibration using this sensor, this thought is correct?

To put the need rotating magnet in front of sensor I use the original potentiometer axis as support, this is easy to do.

This sensor is used in this upgrate kit - in case with a 13bit USB controller.

http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702&start=135

Sokol1















Last edited by Sokol1; 09/16/13 12:54 AM.
#3838565 - 09/18/13 06:01 AM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Bob Church Offline
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Hi Sokol,

>> Thanks for the tips. <<

You're welcome!

>> Beyond the issue of the potentiometer course degrees (60), there is the fact that the axis of potentiometer is part of the gimbal (without potentiometer in place the gimbal disassembles)... <<

That's can be a problem if the stick is heavily sprung, but the CH sticks would probably be okay. If the springs are very stiff, it can create problems eventually though. The pots wear out and fail very quickly if the springs are too heavy. I wouldn't think the CH sticks are sprung heavily enough to be any trouble though.

>> So, to use a commercial potentiometer need one with:

>> - 60 degrees of rotation <<

It's about that for the active area, but it depends on the stick. The pot will turn 270 (some pots will go to 300) degrees rotation even with the 60 degree pot range. It's the stick case itself blocking the stick that limits the stick travel. It has nothing to do with the pot at all, really. It's just that brown piece with the terminals on it. If you look at the ink pattern you can usually see the active area, it's directly across from the pot terminals. You have trouble getting exact alignment, but it's not that critical really. Calibration pins the end points and center point for each axis, the resistance probably wanders back and forth across the line that tracked the ideal position, but it's close enough for most things.

Ideally, the active range should just cover the angle that the stick swings through going from full left to full right or full forward to full back. Not necessarily 60 degrees, it depends on that angle more than anything. You probably can't match things completely.

>> - axis with the same diameter and length, bushing instead thread same D recess on axis. Small chance to find one that fulfill these requirements... <<

Actually those are standard options, I think most of the pot manufacturers offer similar things. The biggest cost, assuming they'll still make them, is usually a minimum quantity and a setup charge.

It is, or at least was originally, a CTS 295 series pot IIRC. You should be able to generate a part number for it from the info in the PDF, then you'd need to talk to CTS and see if they could still be had. If so, you'd be set. But, really, they almost never fail. They're much more likely to be physically damaged somehow than actually worn. It wears symmetric around center too, so if it were to wear enough that it was noticeable, it would only be a slightly higher sensitivity near center, not really that much of a problem. The Gain setting in the CM would counter it.

>> This model is similar http://www.ctscorp.com/components/potentiometers.htm <<

That page is the place to go, pick up the PDF file for the 295s and you can sort a lot of it out. The PDF explains how to generate the part number, I don't see anything that matters that isn't on that list. They all rotate 300 degrees (not 270), the "active area" is under It's a series 295. You can download a PDF data sheet for it from that same page at ctscorp. They explain in that file how the model number defines the pot, the shaft length, type, whether the shaft is flatted or knurled, etc. The say the angle of rotation is 300 degrees for all 295s, that's total shaft rotation, and that the electrical rotation (the active area) has a code that tells what the electrical rotation will be. If you can measure things accurately enough, you can probably figure what the stock options were and pretty much duplicate what the stick is now.

It's the electrical rotation that important. All the 295s turn 300 degrees, but it could only be active for as little as 40 degrees. A 60 degree is one of the options in the part number. The active area, the "60 degrees" is shown under "Taper and Electrical Effective Angle, and 60 degrees is one of those listed.

Anyway, someone gave me a number for the Omron switches that are used for most everything else. If the pots could be made available, it would basically cover the basic parts you need to maintain the things. For low volume, an eBay used stick is probably the best bet, and a "Hangar Queen" is useful if you snap a Hat Switch or the cat swallows the ProThrottle. smile

But the code suggest that are 270 ones. <<

This is one of those with 300 degrees according to the data sheet (so nice to have a data sheet), and the 60 degrees should work fine. The only exception would be the Quad, which uses PC Terminals and solders into the board. They're going to be hard to swap.

>> Well, I am thinking in try a different alternative:

Won't work...Voltage is Vcc and Vss...1/3rd turn will give you less but you can't adjust for it unless you set up a reference supply.

Are 13 bits sensor build for use in joystick/rudder... allow 8192 points of resolution in 180 degrees, work on 5v like a potentiometer (+5v, signal, gnd). <<

I couldn't really see how you were going to move the pots, and the magnet you mention suggests maybe it uses Hall sensors. Anyway, that's all a little unclear, but you keep talking in bits and the system is looking for a voltage. If the little cards have ADCs on them. There's usually a REF+ and REF- terminal that lets you set what the ADC needs to see for max and min values. Mostly they're just tied to the +5 and GND terminal.

Other then that, they'd work if you were going to use the stick just going through Windows. but the CM still requires that you get a real CH board somehow, one that has enough axes and buttons to meet the requirements of whatever controller you were trying to emulate. If you do go to the Control Manager, it's all 8-bit data, 13 bits wouldn't really help. Easy enough to convert if you need to, just a matter of throwing low bits away until it's 8 bits wide. Just ignore them entirely. Or, I suppose you could scale it down, I don't think it would matter a lot, though.

The sensor (the pot in this case) really has nothing to do with the resolution. The pots or Hall sensors have "infinite" resolution. The overall resolution depends only on the A/D converter that picks up the data. The CM itself uses 8-bit data for everything.

>> Theoretically, if turned only 60 degrees (~33%) - case of joystick - this sensor give m points of resolution. Similar to are get in MFG Crosswind pedal.

Since the Fighterstick USB controller are 8 bits (256 point) I will got 256 points with 60 degrees movement after calibration using this sensor, this thought is correct? <<

The thought is correct, or so it seems, but you can't use more than the 0..255 range so there's really not much point in dealing with a finer resolution (unless you're just going to run it through Windows, then I suppose it can be whatever you need). If you want to program it with the CM, 8 bits is the most you can use.

Anyway, maybe that will be some help. For a one-time repair you're still probably ahead buying a used unit, giving the isopropyl treatment to the pots, and do it that way. You're not likely to have to do it again for several years. smile

Best regards,

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

#3838724 - 09/18/13 03:39 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Well since these in eBay are 300 degrees, I gave up looking for potentiometers, ordering fews direct from CTS had been expensive... frown

Just to clarify the thought in use "sensor" instead (unavailable) pot's:

Is not because (their more) "Bits/Resolution" (that dont mean nothing if USB controller/Windows dont use then), is only because they are relative cheap (~10 Euros), and more important, are AVAILABLE (despite having to order from a guy in Ukrania...).

So my doubt is: are something in Fighterstick circuit board or CH drivers that made then only work if (rare) potentiometers are installed? Or using sensors end give less than the nominal 8 bits - 256 points - for calibration?
Sensors dont worth a try?

To fit the necessary magnet in gimbal - in example a old Combatstick (whas gameporte, now is USB BU0836... another history) I use original potentiometer axis as support:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9449/6xfi.jpg

This above MOD dont alter none in original gimbal - if find new pots, is just case of fit then in place.
In case whas used HALL sensor, but these are tricky to center due their high sensitivity, a 0,5mm movement alter significantly the output, a problem that would not have with the above sensor.

This "drama" is due: here a new Fighterstick cost ~250$ (and order a ~90$ one from Amazon dont drop the final cost - shipping+tax+tax+tax...), so joystick is like cars in Cuba. biggrin

Sokol1














Last edited by Sokol1; 09/18/13 04:49 PM.
#3838823 - 09/18/13 07:01 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Bob Church Offline
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Hi Sokol,

>> Well since these in eBay are 300 degrees, I gave up looking for potentiometers, ordering fews direct from CTS had been expensive... frown <<

As far as I can tell from the 295 data sheet, they all allowed 300 degrees physical rotation. It's the electrical rotation that matters. The only thing that has probably changed is the brown board with the resistive ink pattern on it. Other than that, all the 295s parts are probably identical.

>> Just to clarify the thought in use "sensor" instead (unavailable) pot's:

Is not because (their more) "Bits/Resolution" (that dont mean nothing if USB controller/Windows dont use then), is only because they are relative cheap (~10 Euros), and more important, are AVAILABLE (despite having to order from a guy in Ukrania...). <<

Yeah, I know you don't have to use them all. You just lose resolution, but otherwise it works fine. Somehow I got the impression you were going to try feeding the 11 bits of data to the USB data packet from the card in the stick rather than providing the signal voltage. The board in the CH has it's own A/D converter. If you're not concerned with using the Control Manager, there's no problem. Take as many as you need starting with the high-order bit, ignore as many as you need to for the resolution you want to use at the low end. I've done it on occasion with prototypes, use the top 8 bits out of a 10-bit converter, just discard the last two.

>> So my doubt is: are something in Fighterstick circuit board or CH drivers that made then only work if (rare) potentiometers are installed? Or using sensors end give less than the nominal 8 bits - 256 points - for calibration?
Sensors dont worth a try? <<

No, it's only the Control Manager that would have trouble. Without that, if you weren't going to use that, it would work fine with 11-bit, Windows would sort it out, calibrate it, etc.

>> To fit the necessary magnet in gimbal - in example a old Combatstick (whas gameporte, now is USB BU0836... another history) I use original potentiometer axis as support:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9449/6xfi.jpg

This above MOD dont alter none in original gimbal - if find new pots, is just case of fit then in place.
In case whas used HALL sensor, but these are tricky to center due their high sensitivity, a 0,5mm movement alter significantly the output, a problem that would not have with the above sensor. <<

I see. The "finding new pots" part is the problem, but that one pot was basically all that CH has used as far as I know, and they used them in the gameport sticks and throttles too.

>> This "drama" is due: here a new Fighterstick cost ~250$ (and order a ~90$ one from Amazon dont drop the final cost - shipping+tax+tax+tax...), so joystick is like cars in Cuba. biggrin <<

smile Yeah, I know the problem is in the shipping, VATs, etc. Used to be that sending it to some countries you could label them a "gift" or "replacement parts" and those extra fees would be waived, I don't know if that works where you are or not.

Best regards,

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

#3839944 - 09/20/13 11:43 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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hey bob. long time. how are things?
im at it again modding the CH Products, this time using fightersticks.

#4290245 - 08/24/16 06:12 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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erichos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sokol1

To fit the necessary magnet in gimbal - in example a old Combatstick (whas gameporte, now is USB BU0836... another history) I use original potentiometer axis as support:

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/9449/6xfi.jpg

Sokol1


Sokol1, this link is not working, can you upload new one please? I would like to modify old CH Fighterstick that I remake from old gameport to USB by MMJoy2 and I want use TLE5011. But these pots are not very suitable for sticking ring magnet. Thank you very much.

#4290278 - 08/24/16 07:31 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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This:

[Linked Image]post a picture

The original potentiometer axis is part o gimbal mechanism, if you remove the pot the gimbal fall apart.

I use the pot' axis for fit the Bic pen tube for support the magnets, due this is necessary reduce the axis - tip only - diameter slight to fit inside the Bic tube, doable with power drill and iron sand paper, but properly done in late.

Or use other tube - the Bic pen is good because have parallel sides - but you can use round ones to avoid reduce the diameter, use epoxy putty or glue to leave the magnets parallel.




#4290314 - 08/24/16 08:57 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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erichos Offline
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Thank you very much Sokol1 I try it solve.

#4290336 - 08/24/16 10:23 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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I remembered another thing, the tube can not be fit too tight or glued on pot axis.
Their purpose is allow you turn the magnets to set the center of axis.

The other option is twist HALL legs what will be more complicated in this assembly.

#4290569 - 08/25/16 05:56 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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Look at this pot' HALL sensor that the guy did in 3D print - the Bic idea is the same thing.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread...th-HALL-sensors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s6HeCYWWRo

Is for replace Tm pot in HOTAS X

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1607595/#files

Last edited by Sokol1; 08/25/16 06:27 PM.
#4290613 - 08/25/16 08:20 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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LocNar Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sokol1
Look at this pot' HALL sensor that the guy did in 3D print - the Bic idea is the same thing.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread...th-HALL-sensors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s6HeCYWWRo

Is for replace Tm pot in HOTAS X

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1607595/#files


Neat, was gonna scavenge old Cougar pots to do this with, but would make more sense to print the plastic parts.

Switch the Alegro sensor to A1324 (5.0mv/gauss, 90deg swing) and these become 100% better than using the 1301 for joysticks, which are 2.5mv/gauss and req 180deg. The 1324 are also sensitive enough to adequately use 5x5x1mm neodymium magnets so long as they are N50 or N52 (supermagnetman.com has them).

#4290635 - 08/25/16 10:55 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: LocNar]  
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LocNar

I had think about this, and will be good if fit a small bearing in the axis - to remove lateral movements.

This "HALL pot" is easy way to get replacement for Saitek's, Tm, etc. smile


#4299573 - 09/27/16 09:13 PM Re: CH josytick spare potentiometers. [Re: Sokol1]  
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erichos Offline
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Hi guys,
I replaced original pots by TLE5011 for this joystick and used excellent software MMJoy2, some pictures:






















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