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#3821515 - 08/12/13 09:27 PM 4-ship tactical turns  
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sUrgeon Offline
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Hi guys,

I am looking for information about 3 and 4-ship tactical turns.
1) How to.... (If possible with pictures for additional information)
2) Deconfliction.
3) Comms

Looking forward to your answer(-s)

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3821557 - 08/12/13 10:21 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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SUBS_17 Offline
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"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3821630 - 08/13/13 01:47 AM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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blindone Offline
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this is awesome ^^^^ thanks

#3821691 - 08/13/13 03:57 AM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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sUrgeon Offline
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@SUBS_17 thanks but I can't see any explanation about the 4-ship tactical turns.
All explanations are done with just one wingman.

Btw look here:
A10 formation flying guide

Just to be more specific:"How does a 4-ship box formation do a 90 degree delayed turn?" and so on.......

#3821797 - 08/13/13 01:32 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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Originally Posted By: sUrgeon
@SUBS_17 thanks but I can't see any explanation about the 4-ship tactical turns.
All explanations are done with just one wingman.

Btw look here:
A10 formation flying guide

Just to be more specific:"How does a 4-ship box formation do a 90 degree delayed turn?" and so on.......


First off, the normal combat formation for A-10s is 2 ship, a 4 ship combat formation is not the norm. If you are flying a 4 ship combat formation all you would do for most of the maneuvers is 3/4 would do the same as 1/2. For example, the 90-degree turn into wingman, 3/4 would initiate their maneuver when crossing where 1/2 started their turn.

Here is latest guide is located at: http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=76

But again, 4 ship combat formations is the exception not the norm.

Here you go.

Four-Ship Wedge Trail Wedge. Flight members will maneuver off their element lead and Three in relationship to One. Three will ensure deconfliction from Number Two.

Four-Ship Wedge-on-Wedge. Flight members will maneuver off the aircraft in front of them to maintain a Wedge position.

Four-Ship Vic Formation. Concept is the same as those employed in the Box formation.

Box Formation. Elements employ the low-altitude maneuvering concepts. The leader of the trailing element will maneuver to maintain the desired positioningand is responsible for deconfliction with the lead element. The rear element lead must ensure spacing between the lead element and the rear element is greater than the spacing between aircraft in each element. Additionally, during the turn, the rear element must maintain visual with both members of the front element.

Last edited by Snoopy_476th; 08/13/13 07:23 PM.
#3822174 - 08/14/13 09:03 AM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: Snoopy_476th]  
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sUrgeon Offline
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Thanks Snoopy,
I think the best way to handle a 4-ship in tac turns is to have a vertical spacing between the 2 elements as well. So in that way they never gonna crash into the other element in case of....
They can maneuver "as normal", and element lead is responsible for further deconfliction, as explained by you.

Interesting setup for an attack from a racetrack:
Box formation. Cross turns at the end of the racetrack, and delayed 90degrees turn to get everybody in a "line abreast" for a simultanious attack with 4x A10's!!



Last edited by sUrgeon; 08/14/13 10:59 AM.
#3823374 - 08/16/13 10:40 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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SUBS_17 Offline
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You know in mp me and the guys I have flown with just turn in formation we never bother with that stuff. Normally in a DC mission in F4AF we would if faced with an air threat send the escort ahead to take care of the threats. Also the turns are often not at 90 degrees unless you are turning to an IP/tgt in which case we used trail formation in some cases so you're not really in formation during the critical parts of the mission if you're attacking a ground target for example. CAS is different yet again because you split up make your runs and then when done regroup. Also as a formation with larger formations eg multiple flights in one package we would locate a threat circle ahead and avoid it so left or right and everyone else would follow. RTB we often just form up or race back to base.(in formation lol)



"Trust me I know what I'm doing" Detective Sledge Hammer
#3824724 - 08/20/13 04:40 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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SUBS, the turns above ARE in formation, they're just in a much wider formation than you may be flying (1 NM or greater separation between aircraft) which is why they look different. There are pros and cons to the wider formations, especially in combat situations.

The A-10s here at Davis Monthan use tactical wide formations when recovering from missions it looks awesome.


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#3824753 - 08/20/13 05:21 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: EinsteinEP]  
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One example for air to air is 3-5nm separation on a 4-ship ... no one's notching that wall of F-15's, no one's dissapearing from radar, especially if data-link is involved.

The cons here are that if somehow someone manages to slip in close, it's a lot harder and a lot more time consuming to help your buddy now. Similarly the tail-end guys are outside of the effective range of each other's weapons, though this might not be as big a deal (consider that it's actually 2 flights of 2, always, it's never really a single 4-ship).


Originally Posted By: EinsteinEP
There are pros and cons to the wider formations, especially in combat situations.


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#3938193 - 04/12/14 10:22 AM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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Gigolety Offline
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Now Ice will become suspicious because I am answering to an old post again (eheheh) but I got this doubt:

Are you doing silent tactical turns when flying in Multiplayer ?

I read the F-16 guide but I have still trouble to understand how a wingman or a leader will understand what are the intentions of other element.

#3938228 - 04/12/14 12:04 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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Deacon211 Offline
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Hehe, I didn't realize how old the thread was until you mentioned it Gigolety.

Comm out turns take some practice but are easy enough once you get the hang of it. We used mic clicks to signal the wingman that something was going to happen, and while easier I think, they are not necessarily required.

In any case, the wing should always be looking to the lead to stay in position as that is almost entirely his responsibility.

So, it goes something like this (with mic clicks since that is what I know)...

1. Lead clicks mic.
2. -2 looks over.

a. If lead wing flashes, -2 turns.
b. If lead turns, -2 makes a turn based on when lead stops or doesn't.

So,

1. Lead turns into and gets nose on...tac turn towards wingman.
2. Lead turns into and stops at 45 deg off...nav turn towards wingman.

And:

1. Wing flash and lead waits until -2 nose on...tac turn away from wingman.
2. Wing flash and lead turns toward -2 when -2 approaches 45 deg of turn...nav turn away from wingman.
3. Wing flash and lead turns away immediately...in place away from wingman.
4. Wing flash and lead turns toward immediately...cross turn.

There are a few more but you get the general idea.

Incidentally, I can't say anything about A-10 tactics, but there is nothing unusual about 4 ships. The second section simply performs its turn where the first section did theirs. There's a lot of obvious advantages to 4 ships. In addition to mutual support, it allows the formation to threat react by section, rather than individuals. This might mean that the mission doesn't get scrubbed as only half the division might have to turn out or jettison its bombs. But the most obvious advantage is the increased ordnance available to be put on target.

Not so important in CAS. But for BAI, AI, DAS or whatever they're calling it these days, it amounts to a bigger fist to the enemy's gut and a bigger pack of wolves for the enemy to deal with.

Written in haste, so apologize for anything I missed.

Deacon

Last edited by Deacon211; 04/12/14 03:26 PM. Reason: grammar
#3938282 - 04/12/14 03:07 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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EDIT: Well, that's what I get for writing before my coffee....

I guess the other half of the question above was how the second section (element) leader knows what the Division (Flight) leader is intending.

First of all, these turns are rarely made out of context. Box is more or less an enroute formation, so you are going somewhere or coming back or perhaps you are running a racetrack in the CAS stack or preparing for a push time. In any case, the lead should probably not be doing anything too surprising when he turns.

Remember also that comm out turns may be used to prevent frequency congestion, or they may be used as an EMCON measure. In either case though, if the flight lead needs to start notching or defending or engaging then the mime show is pretty much over. They already know where you are. If you can get in a call, great. If not, you do what you need to do. In the end you aviate first and communicate last.

Which brings me to the second point. Dash 3 and Dash 2 are always responsible to maintain formation on lead. Dash 4 is responsible for maintaining formation on Dash 3. True, you are maneuvering as a division. But effectively, you are maneuvering as two sections. Dash 3 does what he needs to in order to keep his place in the box. If lead turns the lead section 90 left, 3 turns the second section so as to regain box. If lead crossturns or in place turns, then 3 must turn also so as to get back in formation. As I said, lead rarely should do something surprising. But, if he does, 3 does what he must to maintain mutual support.

That's why Dash last is always lowest on fuel and first to get zapped...he's on the tail end of the whip.


Last edited by Deacon211; 04/12/14 03:28 PM. Reason: grammar again
#3938374 - 04/12/14 07:43 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: Deacon211]  
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Gigolety Offline
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Great explanation, I think is quite clear right now. I never thuought it was possible to do it using just mike as a communication system. I was thinking they were using hand gesture (real life) or wing rolling in virtual arenas.

I will give a try and practice with others in virtual skies. I am sure it will be pretty funny!

Thanks

#3938585 - 04/13/14 11:03 AM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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Deacon211 Offline
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No problem!

Remember in combat spread, there is no way you are going to see a hand signal...especially in a closed cockpit.

I'm not sure how well mic clicks will work on a PC comm system. In the plane there is a definite clicking sound if you just press the transmit button that I don't think translates all that well into Vent or TS.

I just read the Air Force procedures briefly, but it doesn't sound like they use clicks at all. That's perfectly fine, but it definitely requires the wingman to be fairly vigilant in looking at lead. He should be anyway, but the mic clicks are just a wingman attention signal. Remember also if you are lead, that you need to do a good long wing flash, especially if you aren't clicking the mic. The wingman has his hands full seeing to his own airplane, checking six, etc. Lead needs to keep his wing up for as long as it takes for the wingman to see it and determine that this isn't just a minor course correction, but a turn signal.

It's pretty fun when it works as advertised.

Deacon

#3938654 - 04/13/14 02:26 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: Deacon211]  
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It works well if you have an appropriate 'add on' like a 'mic click' sound. We use that in the 44th, but we also use visual signals (vertical/horizontal stab flutter or porpoising, wing rocks, flashes etc). I've been trying to convince ED to put more motion capability into the virtual head so that we can get that 'big nod' motion going biggrin

Originally Posted By: Deacon211
No problem!

Remember in combat spread, there is no way you are going to see a hand signal...especially in a closed cockpit.

I'm not sure how well mic clicks will work on a PC comm system. In the plane there is a definite clicking sound if you just press the transmit button that I don't think translates all that well into Vent or TS.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 04/13/14 02:26 PM.

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#3938714 - 04/13/14 04:55 PM Re: 4-ship tactical turns [Re: sUrgeon]  
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Deacon211 Offline
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Cool. I didn't realize that there was a mic click add on!


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