Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#3821195 - 08/12/13 03:20 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Online Centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
Miami, FL USA
That was a very enlightening post by TK in that link. Quite simply the number of people buying flight sims is not sustaining the increasing costs of development.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3821208 - 08/12/13 05:04 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
777 Studios - Jason Offline
Senior Member
777 Studios - Jason  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,257
Southern California or Moscow
Why is it so enlightening because it comes from TK? I have been saying that for years. Yet no one seems to believe me. Sad. I'm glad a fellow developer has confirmed what I have been trying to tell people.

If a product you are interested in works relatively well you should get behind it even if it doesn't have any bell and whistle you want.

Jason

Last edited by 777 Studios - Jason; 08/12/13 05:05 AM.
#3821217 - 08/12/13 05:59 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: 777 Studios - Jason]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,705
Pizzicato Offline
Asleep at the Wheel
Pizzicato  Offline
Asleep at the Wheel
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,705
Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
Why is it so enlightening because it comes from TK? I have been saying that for years. Yet no one seems to believe me. Sad. I'm glad a fellow developer has confirmed what I have been trying to tell people.


I don't think it's a function of the fact that it came from TK rather than you, Jason. It's just that these observations frequently get missed. That's why I tried to give it some additional PR by going with a clear title and sticking it in Community Hall where there's the most traffic.

Best of luck with BoS, anyway. I'm definitely rooting for you guys and I have full appreciation (and first hand experience) of the challenges you're facing on a daily basis. Keep kicking ass.


---------
Pizzicato
#3821222 - 08/12/13 07:00 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,396
VonBarb. Offline
Earth-bound misfit
VonBarb.  Offline
Earth-bound misfit
Hotshot

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,396
The Dust,Pandora
On the other hand, third party developers making add-on products for FSX seem to be doing quite well. Just look at the rate at which OrbX, Aerosoft, A2A or Carenado release new products. They're often mostly eye-candy add-ons adding new scenery, a weather engine, or beautifully rendered but comparatively simplistic planes, but it's working, and if I have to take a wild guess at why, I'd have to concur with previous posters stating how immersion into their favourite sims was the most important consideration.

In a dull and empty environment such as FSX's, new highly detailed terrain and HD 3D cockpits will make a difference, and start a virtuous circle of collection expansion : buy Carenado's latest to fly around OrbX, buy new OrbX product to have somewhere to fly your Cessnas around. Novelty, an ever growing experience with new challenges will also keep players interested. You master PMDG's NGX, now try not to break anything with A2A's prop fighters. FSX's been out for years now, and new quality (and therefore expensive) add-ons still come out every other week.

So maybe there is a lesson to be learnt here, that products providing the highest level of immersion will fare better on the market, or that the modular or "pay per plane" business model that so many despise is the way to go. Flight failed at it, but mainly because their offerings were so far from what either of their target audiences (simmers and newcomers) wanted, but what if a developer was to only provide the basic framework for a sim, which third party devs would expand ? Original dev would make money on the licensing of their technology by third party studios that would create much higher detailed products, with less financial risks involved and a potentially much higher return on their investment ?

Cheers

Nico


"Et s'il ne pleure personne, que Dieu nous le pardonne "

ArmA2/OA - RoF - FSX

ASUS P8P67 Pro Motherboard - Intel i5 2500K @ 3.3Ghz - 8Gb G-Skill DDR3 1866Mhz - Gainward GTX660 Ti Phantom II - Win7 Ultimate 64bits - Saitek av8r
#3821237 - 08/12/13 08:22 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: toonces]  
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 356
CTR69 Offline
Member
CTR69  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 356
Originally Posted By: toonces

The consistent thread between these posts seems to be the loss of gameplay/immersion at the expense of feature-creep in flight sims. I hope somebody that has the means to make a difference is listening and taking notes.


This right here. Many games give you a great immersion with your character through the main storyline, Mass effect franchise is the best example of this. Everyone connected to at least one character there.

2nd example was BF3 "going hunting" intro. Everyone was blown away by the carrier walkthrough into the plane.

3rd example are the career options in Project CARS. Some incentive that pulls you forward, since there's no leveling and Exp to gain.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=168132627

In flight sim, this would result in career mode going from trainer year or "season" through being a wingman to a CAG in a land airbase or on a carrier, depending how well you did as a trainee. Flying the superhornet as a flight leader on the most dangerous missions would be the endgoal of such SP campaign. Another option could be for seasoned veterans in which you're already a CAG and just do tours around the world with increasing difficulty.
Operation Opera style suicide mission would be the final and hardest. Boss battle, if you like. For extra there could be dead-is-dead option in which there's no loading back if you die. You must create a new character and start from the beginning. One character, many missions.

4th example is the MP coop option for your single player campaign, where it would be great to fly SP missions and having your friend as a wingman instead of AI. We've all seen how they can be quickly wiped out by the enemy and then you feel bad about them or the game marks the mission as a failure. Star citizen is supposed to feature something like that. Seamless blending of MP and SP.

There's no need for dynamic campaign if scripted missions bound together in a great story arc with many outcomes.

Multiplayer is like MOBA style, where there's no immersion or larger goal, just random missions you want to win. BMS goes around that with 24/7 campaigns where you can jump in anytime and try to do a little contribution to victory.

Last edited by CTR69; 08/12/13 08:43 AM.
#3821287 - 08/12/13 12:52 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,790
Smokin_Hole Offline
Member
Smokin_Hole  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,790
I'd hate to be a developer in this environment. You're damned regardless of how you market your product. You can be a small-time producer and stay in constant contact with your customers. But then they all think you are their friend; that they have purchased the right to tell you how to run "our" company. Or you can be above it all and just ignore them. But that only works if word-of-mouth is not a large part of your marketing-- not so much the case with air combat simulations. If I had to depend on someone like ME as a customer I would need to be locked in a padded room. But that's not really my problem is it? :-)

As for the genre: It's safe. Flying is too much a part of the human psyche. Whether it's pushing buttons on a Warthog or jumping off a mountain in a paraglider, there will always be a segment of the population who wants to experience flight. If the current catalog of sims eventually fail something will eventually come along to capitalize on that desire.

#3821288 - 08/12/13 01:19 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Online Centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
Miami, FL USA
I'd love to see sales numbers for the arcade flying games like Wings of Prey and Hawx. Did they sell better than hardcore flight sims? If not then that really speaks volumes doesn't it?


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3821309 - 08/12/13 02:22 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,442
GrayGhost Online content
Hotshot
GrayGhost  Online Content
Hotshot

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,442
They sold well enough to produce sequels. Look at the Ace Combat series.

As for selling better than hardcore flight sims, probably, but you're comparing apples to oranges.


--
44th VFW
#3821312 - 08/12/13 02:32 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Online Centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
Miami, FL USA
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost


As for selling better than hardcore flight sims, probably, but you're comparing apples to oranges.


Not really. I'm comparing them based on what their respective rates on investment return are so from a business perspective it's not comparing apples and oranges. If "lite" flight sims get more sales while having a budget that is the same or lower than those of hardcore flightsims then where do you think the interest of publishers will be?


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3821338 - 08/12/13 03:29 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
Well, one difference was TK's post had some concrete relative numbers (it cost X times more for only Y times more sales). Saying simply "it costs us a lot more and we don't get an equal increase in sales" is a bit vague. For some businesses, a 5% increase in costs with a 2% increase in sales is considered "unacceptable" even though it's minor. Yet TK is talking about TRIPLE digit percentages in both sales and costs, and that brings it home better if it were.

Few devs are willing to give even those kinds of relative numbers (naturally no one gives absolute numbers), so to people who have to pay for a product, it can feel like the rich man is begging to him.

Anyway, I think (to pick an example) CloD's problem was they built a WWII aircraft simulator and then tried to craft an entertaining game around it. The simulator part had tons of technical issues which ate up their time and the "game" part was just left to wither on the vine.

Is it easier and/or better to create an entertaining game with Strike Fighters-like fidelity of aircraft systems, then go back once it's functioning and add the "realistic" modeling, leaving the early work as "easy mode"? For example, Arma 3 is coming out on release without its single player campaign, traditionally the weakest and most bug-filled part of their products, so they can work on it after the release push.

Imagine in other words what ED is doing with FC3...it released a product with a bunch of planes and campaigns, and is then going back and crafting the improved flight modeling and cockpit switchology for them. So what if others all followed that pattern?

Give me a great GAME that is a flight simulator, and then add in the things the rivet counters want later to turn it into "DCS A-10C". Don't give me a procedures trainer with combat and then try and bolt a game onto it later. For one thing, the rivet counters are NEVER happy, so don't try and please them first anyway because even after release you spend every patch and addon and DLC appeasing them. So leave them for last! For another, no offense to Jason's team's bold efforts to put the beta career into ROF, but I think everyone can agree that part of ROF should have been there from the beginning, and had it been part of the original design it might have benefited quite a lot...both the final product as well as the initial reception on release. I applaud their attempts to backfill this gap in the product long after its release, but it should have been the center of ROF that the rest was designed around instead of being an addition long after the product had been out there and in use.

That's also why I take ED's declaration that they're working on a dynamic campaign for DCS with a grain of salt. I don't know if it can be bolted into DCS World and that it wouldn't require a new design with that at the heart.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3821402 - 08/12/13 05:57 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,800
ST0RM Offline
Senior Member
ST0RM  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,800
Ten Mile, Tn
TK's reply is interesting.

He has the backing from followers of this series to do more with the sims, but holds back. He has been told to raise the prices of his sims in order to allow more things to be modeled. But he wont do it.

He is his own enemy. He released a great sim that lasted a long time and has a good following. But he leaves those same people short with patches that break the basic sim and don't add anything new that people really want. DLCs are good but if it's not what people are asking for, then don't expect them to be money makers.

Listening to the group I fly M/P with in FSX, a few are kids. Maybe in their tweens. Many cant afford payware and stick with the defaults. As a dev, I would start with them and figure out a product that isn't too complex and costly and market to their wants. Product X lite. A nice exterior model with a working pit. Nothing over the top, just something to get them interested in future products.

Model companies did the same things back in the 50s. They marketed to the kids who saved their allowance to buy kits. Those same kids are the ones who know buy the $200 1/32 wonder kit.

Just my $.02

-Jeff

#3821404 - 08/12/13 06:01 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Jedi Master]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,800
ST0RM Offline
Senior Member
ST0RM  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,800
Ten Mile, Tn
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
That's also why I take ED's declaration that they're working on a dynamic campaign for DCS with a grain of salt. I don't know if it can be bolted into DCS World and that it wouldn't require a new design with that at the heart.


Their current plane set doesn't match that idea. Not everyone wants to fly the A-10 and the AI isn't smart enough yet to fill in the other roles. That and without true team flights/operations, the enemy IADS will shwack you before you get the first bomb dropped.

-Jeff

#3821509 - 08/12/13 09:17 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: ST0RM]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,790
Smokin_Hole Offline
Member
Smokin_Hole  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,790
Originally Posted By: ST0RM

...He has the backing from followers of this series to do more with the sims, but holds back. He has been told to raise the prices of his sims in order to allow more things to be modeled. But he wont do it...


But told by whom? If he has been told by dozens of vocal forum participants, well, that hardly qualifies as a large sample of his customer base. He must look at the broader market and judge how the levers he pulls affects sales. Observing through the key-hole as we do doesn't give us the information needed to give sound business advice.

#3821573 - 08/12/13 11:20 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: VonBarb.]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 850
toonces Offline
Member
toonces  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 850
Honolulu, Hawaii
TK's post is interesting because he basically says, "Hey guys, I'm in this to make money. Making flight simulators for you guys is a losing proposition. I can make more money creating Android flight games and selling them for $1 a pop than I can making Strike Fighters sims and selling them for $50 a pop. Sorry, but I like to eat and flight sims just aren't paying the bills. Nothing personal."

That's how I read it.


Originally Posted By: VonBarb.
On the other hand, third party developers making add-on products for FSX seem to be doing quite well.

... but what if a developer was to only provide the basic framework for a sim, which third party devs would expand ? Original dev would make money on the licensing of their technology by third party studios that would create much higher detailed products, with less financial risks involved and a potentially much higher return on their investment ?

Cheers

Nico


This seems to be the direction that DCS is taking. I support it.

In a way, DCS is one of the most brilliant sim developers ever. They really have created a potential "electronic battlefield" with their DCS World interface. Opening this up to 3rd party developers was just plain smart.

I just hope that the community can rally before the money runs out. If they could strap a wargame engine to run a dynamic campaign, allowing integration of Combined Arms and multiplayer, along with the potential new modules coming out...they could really have the next great sim. I'd certainly shelve BMS if I had this.

And it's so frustrating because it seems so close...so possible. But will it be 10 more years before we see a final realization of all this potential...sort of like BMS where it took 10 years before the sim evolved to such a high level?


Last edited by toonces; 08/12/13 11:21 PM.

"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#3821574 - 08/12/13 11:23 PM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 850
toonces Offline
Member
toonces  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 850
Honolulu, Hawaii
You guys are going to laugh at me, but I've actually been looking into learning LUA programming so I could write a dynamic campaign engine for DCS myself.

I know how absurd that sounds, but I really have done quite a bit of research into doing it. I just think the scope, for someone who'd have to learn the language before even beginning to create something, is a bit much for me to take on.

I'm that frustrated, though.


"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#3821610 - 08/13/13 12:42 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,127
Flogger23m Offline
Senior Member
Flogger23m  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,127
US
Both have their issues. Eagle Dynamics is working with a dated and unstable engine which really holds the game back. No matter what hardware or software you have, you can expect slow downs and stutters. The game hardly gets my CPU and GPU hot, yet often drops down to 14 frame rates.

Their general implementation of things is not that smooth but they are making improvements. I hope their Edge engine runs considerably better and they can smooth out the buying/upgrading process for modules. Other improvements can make the game go a long ways.

In regards to Rise of Flight, while the engine seems to run very well (as far as I can tell), they, IMO, do nickle and dime you. $5 for a light, bullet counter and a few other simple additions and then another $4-5 for a different type of machinegun is a bit much. I know the planes require a lot of work but they are not making an F-16A and then making a F-16C variant (some really big changes to the cockpit and electronics).

Eagle Dynamics seems to be going the route of charging for terrain as well. IMO the only thing that should cost money are flyable planes to keep everyone on the same page MP wise. And I don't want to be buying terrian, non-flyable aircraft, skins, tank units, buildings, ect.

#3821688 - 08/13/13 03:56 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Flogger23m]  
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,705
Pizzicato Offline
Asleep at the Wheel
Pizzicato  Offline
Asleep at the Wheel
Member

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,705
Vancouver, BC
Originally Posted By: Flogger23m
In regards to Rise of Flight, while the engine seems to run very well (as far as I can tell), they, IMO, do nickle and dime you. $5 for a light, bullet counter and a few other simple additions and then another $4-5 for a different type of machinegun is a bit much. I know the planes require a lot of work but they are not making an F-16A and then making a F-16C variant (some really big changes to the cockpit and electronics).

Eagle Dynamics seems to be going the route of charging for terrain as well. IMO the only thing that should cost money are flyable planes to keep everyone on the same page MP wise. And I don't want to be buying terrian, non-flyable aircraft, skins, tank units, buildings, ect.


I think the suggestion of "nickel and diming" is a little unfair. I'm pretty sure that 777's business model is a function of practical necessity as opposed to greed. (I'm working under the assumption that Jason doesn't sleep under a duvet stuffed with $1000 bills in a Beverley Hills mansion and drive his Ferrari to the airport before jumping on his private jet for lunchtime meetings with his Russian developers on a beach in Martinique. Probably).

The days of "all you can eat for $50" buffets in the flight sim world are gone forever because they're no longer workable. Instead, they've been replaced by an a la carte menu... which is fine, IMO. That being the case, it now becomes a question of how do you carve up the menu and what do you charge for the individual items?

It's ultimately a value proposition. If you fall on side that doesn't see the value, the proposition can look like a cynical cash grab. If you fall on the side that does see the value, it looks like a tasty a la carte menu. I can almost guarantee that if Eagle started releasing new DCS quality aircraft at 50 cents a pop, we wouldn't be having this conversation. biggrin

When it comes down to it, though, everyone is going to draw their own lines.

I've never bought a full-priced Train Simulator route because I just don't see $40 of value in the proposition. On the flip side, I would happily pay $40-$50 dollars for a really interesting new DCS map.

Similarly, I've happily paid around $5 for a Rise of Flight aircraft mod pack, but then refused to pay $1.25 for a Rise of Flight mod pack for my favourite aircraft in the sim.

Why?

Because one had value to me while the other didn't.

For that reason alone - acknowledging that the "all you can eat" model is long gone - I like the flexibility and choice that the a la carte model offers to me as a consumer.


---------
Pizzicato
#3821694 - 08/13/13 04:05 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
PanzerMeyer Online centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
PanzerMeyer  Online Centaurian
Pro-Consul of Florida
King Crimson - SimHQ's Top Poster

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 113,934
Miami, FL USA
If the a la carte cart model is the only way for hardcore flight sims to survive then I'm completely ok with that. I'd support it and would continue to buy flight sims. With Rise of Flight specifically I've easily spent about 200 bucks on it and I think I've gotten a lot of value. Heck, I have over 250 hours logged in it.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#3821705 - 08/13/13 05:06 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: Pizzicato]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,427
vocatx Offline
Member
vocatx  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,427
Voca, Texas
When you break down the cost of a sim like RoF, even counting computer, peripherals, and software by what it costs you per hour to enjoy, over the life of the sim it comes in pretty darned reasonable. I probably average nearly thirty hours a month on RoF. That pencils out nicely over three years. There aren't many hobbies that will cost you that little and give you that many hours of enjoyment.

I think a lot of people simply look at the up-front cost and don't think about the per-diem cost. If they had to drop a quarter in every time they hit 'FLY NOW' maybe they would see it differently.


4H_V-man

System Specs:
MSI 870 A-G54
AMD X4 Phenom II @ 3.4 ghz
8 Gb DDR3 1333 RAM
1 Tb Western Digital
250 Gb Western Digital
320 Gb Seagate
Radeon HD 6970 graphics
Thermaltake 650 Modualar power supply
Thermaltake Element V full tower
#3821706 - 08/13/13 05:19 AM Re: A sobering insight into the world of flight sim development [Re: vocatx]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 26,260
wheelsup_cavu Offline
Lifer
wheelsup_cavu  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 26,260
Corona, California
Originally Posted By: vocatx
When you break down the cost of a sim like RoF, even counting computer, peripherals, and software by what it costs you per hour to enjoy, over the life of the sim it comes in pretty darned reasonable. I probably average nearly thirty hours a month on RoF. That pencils out nicely over three years. There aren't many hobbies that will cost you that little and give you that many hours of enjoyment.

I think a lot of people simply look at the up-front cost and don't think about the per-diem cost. If they had to drop a quarter in every time they hit 'FLY NOW' maybe they would see it differently.

The video arcades took a big bite out of my pocket in the 1980's too. It was almost impossible for me to go through less than twenty or thirty dollars in a weekend.


Wheels


Cheers wave
Wheelsup_cavu

Mission4Today (Campaigns, Missions, and Skins for IL-2)
Planes of Fame Air Museum | March Field Air Museum | Palm Springs Air Museum
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Mid-Air Collision in Denver, No Injuries
by Arthonon. 05/14/21 12:59 AM
Hey, Bitcoin, Elon doesn't like you.
by Mr_Blastman. 05/13/21 02:34 AM
I'll be damned !!
by NoFlyBoy. 05/11/21 07:13 PM
RM Jet Suit Boarding
by Red2112. 05/08/21 02:07 PM
Idiot for the day
by rwatson. 05/07/21 10:55 AM
The cost of Epic free games
by Blade_RJ. 05/06/21 08:28 PM
That mettalic smell you feel is actually yours !
by Blade_RJ. 05/06/21 05:15 PM
Shiny American Rocket, cheaper by the dozen
by Nixer. 05/06/21 12:48 AM
House of the Dragon
by PanzerMeyer. 05/05/21 05:45 PM
Some funny Facebook observations
by PanzerMeyer. 05/05/21 11:53 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0