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#3816033 - 07/30/13 07:16 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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+1 on that.

You can't change the outcome of a battle or campaign with the performance of the single individual and his/her plane.


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#3816123 - 07/30/13 02:11 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Especially in WWI. If it's WWII, well, I suppose a lucky Japanese pilot with prior warning might've shot down the Enola Gay...

Anyway, dynamic and random are often synonymous, with the other option being scripted. If the missions are not scripted, playing out the same or almost the same (if there are some random events in the mission) each time, then it's considered dynamic. Dynamic only means that the mission you get is not preordained to happen. There is no requirement that success or failure have specific effects. Things like shooting down more planes = fewer planes to fight are pretty standard, but usually campaign success is defined simply as "X% of missions are successful = win" regardless of whether your side totally wiped out the other or not.




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#3816141 - 07/30/13 02:37 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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It works in Falcon 4.0, which has the best campaign system ever featured in a flight sim.

#3816202 - 07/30/13 04:39 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Faclon 4 stopped halfway down the road with its campaign. The engine was brilliant, no doubt, but presentation and all that creates immersion was sorely missing. But then I have a rather hardcore attitude - switching between aircraft in flight, cherry-picking missions from different units or entering a mission that is already underway are pretty serious flaws for my understanding of a good campaign.

Besides, what worked for a fictional conflict with modern aircraft doesn't necessarily work for a historical conflict with vintage warbirds. Both firepower and situation are incomparable ... as are resources available to both.


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#3817246 - 08/01/13 09:50 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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It only really works for me if there's a decent FMB. I hope there is.

#3818078 - 08/04/13 01:16 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
It works in Falcon 4.0, which has the best campaign system ever featured in a flight sim.


You have to consider what Falcon 4.0 was doing as well. F4 was set in a fictional 2nd Korean War, where there was no historical outcome to compare it to, and with planes (F-16s) that are individually as lethal as a flight or even a squadron in the WWII setting. For F4, it was (more) plausible that a single flight of F-16s could have a significant effect on a campaign lasting a couple of weeks. For WWII (outside of a carrier fight) it is absolutely ridiculous to think a flight or squadron of Stukas on its own could change the outcome of the Battle of Stalingrad.

The best approach, I think was EAW. While you could (somewhat unrealistically) change the outcome of the Battle of Britain, the ultimate ending of the 1943-1945 campaign was set in stone, but you could change the exact sequence of events (i.e. move D-Day right or left a day or two) if your performance was significantly above or below what was considered the historical norm.

#3818121 - 08/04/13 04:14 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: Ian Boys]  
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Originally Posted By: Ian Boys
It only really works for me if there's a decent FMB. I hope there is.


The devs advice to keen mission builders who want to get up and running quickly in BoS is to learn the Rise of Flight mission builder, as this is what it will be based on.

H


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#3818346 - 08/04/13 08:52 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Great.

So all the things I DON'T like about the RoF campaign engine I can expect to see in BoS? That's awesome.

I'm sitting here with a fist full of money that I really want to spend, but I'm not buying another scripted mission campaign flight sim. I'm just not going to do it.

I want to give this company my money, but not until they build me something I want to play. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.


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#3818372 - 08/04/13 10:20 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: toonces]  
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Originally Posted By: toonces
Great.

So all the things I DON'T like about the RoF campaign engine I can expect to see in BoS? That's awesome.

I'm sitting here with a fist full of money that I really want to spend, but I'm not buying another scripted mission campaign flight sim. I'm just not going to do it.

I want to give this company my money, but not until they build me something I want to play. I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.


I like what the original Il-2 FMB and especially the COD FMB with Triggers. I don't think the developer should spend to much time building a campaign as they never seem to have to much time to dedicate to it. That said BlackSix has been involved for quite sometime doing the research. Il-2 supplied the FMB for the community to make descent campaigns, and there are thousands of the them to download.

I have no experience with the ROF campaign builder other than seeing a few posts complaining about its usability, and don't know how many user campaigns are available. I know 777Studios is tying harder to involve the mod community, so hopefully the BOS mission editor be relatively easy to use and involve Triggers, which is a key to decent replayable missions. Again I have no idea what the ROF mission editor and campaign builder is like, so maybe someone can chime in here.

Last edited by Chivas; 08/04/13 10:22 PM.

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#3818481 - 08/05/13 05:32 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Me either, though I understand it is not easy to use. Here is a snippet from a dialogue I had with a 3rd party commercial add-on maker who has done work in CFS, IL2 and CoD.

"Today I was the whole Day in RoF FMB this is so buggy. I made some bomberfligth to intercept and it steady gave me an error that bomber 1 is not linked with entity but it was, and all lines were correct. So I deleted the whole flight and began, same procedure, same triggers, timer aso. And: it worked NOTHING was other than before, but no more error A bit crazy, isnt it?"

I told him if a guy like him takes a whole day putting together a simple mission, it seems pretty daunting, and his comment was to hope they throw out the RoF mission builder and start over, but it doesn't look that way.

Then again, if the company staff are the only ones who can really master the mission builder, it gives them control over the content being developed I guess, enabling them to sell more content, like campaigns, because user made campaigns won't proliferate.

H


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#3818504 - 08/05/13 10:37 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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I've used the RoF mission editor quite a bit as well as making hundreds of missions in IL-2 for my Squadron so I'll add my observations on it.

Firstly the ME is a lot more powerfully than the IL-2 version but nowhere near as intuative. The reason for this is that processes that are automatic in IL-2 need to be added manually in the RoF version. An example that people will encounter early on in there attempt to make a mission is adding waypoints. In IL-2 you just select your plane and click to add the waypoint while in RoF you have to add the waypoint then link it to your plane and add a trigger to start the waypoint. This is cumbersome when you just want to create a simple mission but when you are used to the RoF logic you realize that you have a lot more freedom in what you can do and can do things that were impossible in IL-2. One example from a Biggles themed mission I was working on last night where the player had to shootdown a Camel flown by a dastardly enemy. With RoF I was able to change the nationality of an AI from friendly to enemy when the player starts to fire at it.

Yes the RoF editor does take a while to learn and people are often frustrated when things don't work. As you get comfortable with it you realize that the problems that you blamed on the editor were actually just you not connecting the triggers and links correctly. Overal it still takes me far longer to make a mission in RoF compared to IL-2 but a lot of that comes from all the extra details you end up adding due to the greater flexibility that you have.


Ian "Prangster" Jeremiah
#3818597 - 08/05/13 03:28 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Really good insight, thanks P.


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#3818652 - 08/05/13 05:10 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Entil'zha
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As always, that's the Catch-22. In return for the gifted mission makers being able to make much better missions than we could have in Il-2 or other sims with simple MBs, we get far fewer capable of doing it AND having the time to dedicate.

So we're going to get a far smaller number of hopefully better missions. While no one likes crappy missions, I'm not sure that every one will be a gem just because the bar to entry is higher.





The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3818839 - 08/06/13 01:30 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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You know, last weekend I started up a new Korea campaign in BMS Falcon. I flew 4 missions in one afternoon. One in particular was quite intense, providing TARCAP for a flight of F-15E's doing interdiction IVO the FLOT. It turned into quite a mess as both enemies and friendlies were drawn to the carnage, giving me plenty to do.

Now then, I played those 4 missions and they're over. I'm going to guess that a talented RoF mission creator MIGHT have been able to create those 4 missions over a weekend...I mean we're talking about 20 or more aircraft involved just in the immediate area of my plane during that one mission. So I played them and they're over. If I'm in RoF and they were "created" with the ME, then I can pretty much assume that if I play them again I can expect generally the same mix of aircraft and air defenses, like that SA-4 that wasn't on my planning map but popped up on my RWR and gave me a good scare. Won't be surprised by that the second time I replay that mission!

Except, here's the thing. If I boot up that Korea campaign in BMS from the beginning again, I won't get that same mission again. I won't get those same 4 missions again. Because it changes every time I play it. A butterfly flaps its wings and by the time I get to mission 4 nothing will be the same every time I start over.

That's what makes Falcon so magical, despite its limitations. This is why I want something like this in BoS. I don't want to play the same user-created missions over and over. I want to press "start campaign" and have no idea what the next 20 missions will have in store.

Why is this so hard to understand?


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#3818868 - 08/06/13 03:08 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'm no expert but I started to get that feeling from the RoF "dynamic" campaign. Honestly I've been quite impressed with it compared to the static ones.


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#3818888 - 08/06/13 03:56 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Yes, in RoF in the beta career each time a new career is started new missions are generated. It's possible that if you start in the same squadron at the same time hundreds of times you'll eventually get a mission generated that's similar but still not quite the same.

There's also the possibility to use a 3rd party campaign generator (Pat Wilson's) if the beta career isn't enough. Perhaps someone talented will create something similar for BoS.

#3818925 - 08/06/13 06:56 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'd like to point out that aerial warfare in WWI was quite limited in scope. You either are in a fighter or in a two seater, you either go for a fighter sweep or some other mission.

It's quite agreeable that missions are going to look more or less the same.
As in Falcon 4, for god sake, there are MANY MORE variables available...


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#3818927 - 08/06/13 07:00 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: NattyIced]  
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Originally Posted By: NattyIced
Yes, in RoF in the beta career each time a new career is started new missions are generated. It's possible that if you start in the same squadron at the same time hundreds of times you'll eventually get a mission generated that's similar but still not quite the same.

There's also the possibility to use a 3rd party campaign generator (Pat Wilson's) if the beta career isn't enough. Perhaps someone talented will create something similar for BoS.



Same for BOS.

#3819364 - 08/07/13 07:43 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Their Finest Hour and Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe had good singleplayer campaigns. I don't think you could call them "dynamic", but you could plan the missions yourself, execute them, and the outcomes affected the next missions. Even though it came out in 1991, I still honestly believe that SWOTL remains the best singleplayer WW2 sim experience.

My wishlist for BoS (and any sequels) would include...

1. A really fleshed out career mode. You make a pilot for either Russia or Germany, choose his unit or aircraft type, and fly missions with him. You'd earn medals and promotions etc. Death or POW status would be permanent. (or possibly with a chance to escape as a POW) That way you'd are about your pilot, and the medals, promotions would reflect his progress. It makes it way more interesting than "oops, I'm dead, I'll just respawn as another nameless pilot whose career isn't tracked at all."

2. Squadron management. I want to be able to name my squadron mates, assign them to flights, and watch their careers progress as well. Their Finest Hour and Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe both did this.

(ROF currently does most of this, although I'm not sure if the ability to change the names of the people in your squadron is there)

3. A dynamic campaign would be nice, but seems to be an impossible task these days.

4. Get rid of the "must pass campaign objectives to proceed crap". There's nothing worse than hitting a brick wall in a campaign because you can't complete an objective for whatever reason. Personally I don't think that belongs in a flight sim anyway.

5. Video replay mode. What ROF and IL-2 had before would be fine, but improvements would always be welcomed.

Don't really care much about multiplayer, since I don't play it. I'm just in it for the singleplayer.

Just my input, for what it's worth, if anything...

Honestly if 1 and 2 were confirmed, I'd go ahead and preorder it today. Still holding out for now though.


I refuse to buy a flight sim that I have no interest in playing, on the off chance that MAYBE someday they'll make the one I really want to play.

#3819552 - 08/07/13 06:04 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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SWOTL's campaign was a bit different, though. No other campaign that I can recall had you working on that strategic level of determining what factory made what, protecting it against attacks and feeling the effects if you failed, of being in charge of things that no fighter pilot or even general ever would do.




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The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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