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#3803889 - 07/02/13 11:11 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Trooper117 Offline
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Luke, I fly them both, and have fun on both, plus I know you are doing a lot to improve the stock career on a regular basis.
Keep at it mate, your efforts are appreciated.

#3804148 - 07/02/13 08:26 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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toonces Offline
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Luke-
If you're referring to me then yes, I have played the RoF career beta a few times (although not in the last 2 months or so).

If you could make it about 10x busier in the air, I would find it completely satisfactory, and if BoS has a similar system (about 10x busier) then I'll have no problem picking this sim up.


"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#3804219 - 07/02/13 11:32 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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NattyIced Offline
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What sort of processor do you have?

I had an i7 870 with HT disabled (saves on heat, overclock higher, most tests show it's not utilized in games) and it was clocked at 4GHz, 8GB 1600MHz DDR3, and a 3GB GTX580

In a QMB with full flights each flight being a different plane and all objects selected, it was okay.

I can see a need for spawn/despawn flights, which they currently do, based on how close a player is to make it playable if it was just 2x as busy. 10x as busy would require quite the system.

I currently have an i7 4770K at 4.2Ghz, same memory and GTX770 2GB. Runs same scenario on the full western front at above 50fps which is much better.

Having the option to scale AI units up or down would be nice, but going up is going to come at a pretty good cost to the CPU.

#3804406 - 07/03/13 11:46 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: toonces]  
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Even though I love off-line dynamic campaigns aka Bob II, they cost and with a limited budget it's more important to cater for the majority of the user base than the minority who want something niche like an off-line dynamic campaign.

Times have changed and now with the internet the dynamic is the randomness of other online players.
Imo it's more important to have massive co-op battles that are epic in their execution and give participants a real feeling of what Stalingrad was about.
These days my personal ideal would be to have historical battles where players can fight in first person both on foot and in ground/air vehicles, something like Planetside 2 but using historically accurate weapons.
Throw in a day/night/weather cycle and I think I'd be in heaven... biggrin


Originally Posted By: toonces
I can't believe, really- I can't believe, that in 2013 developers are STILL creating flight simulations without some sort of dynamic campaign engine.

#3804846 - 07/04/13 06:22 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Quote:
Times have changed and now with the internet the dynamic is the randomness of other online players.
Imo it's more important to have massive co-op battles that are epic in their execution and give participants a real feeling of what Stalingrad was about.


Not everyone has the time, desire, or inclination to play online.

#3804853 - 07/04/13 07:46 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: Georgio]  
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Zakzak Offline
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Originally Posted By: Georgio
Throw in a day/night/weather cycle and I think I'd be in heaven... biggrin

Day/night cycle is in it already working in real time


Lead Community manager | 1C Game Studios
#3804854 - 07/04/13 07:47 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: LukeFF]  
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Zakzak Offline
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Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Not everyone has the time, desire, or inclination to play online.

That's why BoS will have both online and offline missions


Lead Community manager | 1C Game Studios
#3805123 - 07/05/13 12:25 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: Zakzak]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Originally Posted By: Zakzak
Originally Posted By: LukeFF
Not everyone has the time, desire, or inclination to play online.

That's why BoS will have both online and offline missions


And that's a very good thing. smile

#3805170 - 07/05/13 05:31 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: Georgio]  
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HeinKill Offline
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Originally Posted By: Georgio
Even though I love off-line dynamic campaigns aka Bob II, they cost and with a limited budget it's more important to cater for the majority of the user base than the minority who want something niche like an off-line dynamic campaign.


Doug: What do you think about having players connect to the Internet 100% of the time as they are playing?

Oleg: I am not a big fan of these things. Many players, especially in less developed parts of the world, still to this day play only single-player and barely use the Internet even if they have Internet access at all.


[Linked Image]
#3806152 - 07/07/13 04:12 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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Originally Posted By: HeinKill
Boo

Your progress to the next phases depends on successful completion of missions in each phase.

What is this, Call of Duty? If you don't destroy three bombers out of six because your dumb AI wingmen didnt do their job, you have to redo? If you don't destroy the bridge, you can't go to the next mission? Because in real life, pilots had to keep going back to the same target, add infinitum, until they destroyed it? Rubbish.

Whaaaat?

How did we get from "campaign progress depends on mission success" to a Call of Duty comparison? I, for one, see this as a "Yay". I've never felt immersed in a campaign where the only progression criteria is to "survive". Of course, I'd rather see a dynamic instantiation: if your mission is to intercept a flight of bombers and they succeed in accomplishing their mission, there should be consequences (e.g., an airfield is taken out of commission, fuel/ammo supplies are low until the next major resupply convoy comes in, etc.), but that's just me dreaming out loud. I'd be very satisfied with mission success criteria.


Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
#3813698 - 07/24/13 08:54 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Matt W. Offline
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Wasn't the original IL-2 setup that way? Didn't you have to just survive the mission to advance? I don't think you had to complete your objective, but you did have to at least takeoff and land successfully to move on.

#3813753 - 07/24/13 12:41 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: SneakyPete]  
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Originally Posted By: SneakyPete
Good post Heinkill and I'm mostly in agreement with your 'Boos and Yays' smile

When I first heard that this sim would be based on the BOS my heart sank as the scenario holds very little interest for me personally. Along with that I think it's been done to death ie the original IL2. I'm in the minority I know but I'm still hoping for a decent campaign based Korean war sim with Migs v Sabres etc. One day maybe!

Having said that the last couple of weekly dev diaries for BOS have made me sit up and take notice and I'm now looking forward with interest to see what develops with the sim.



I know what you mean.. but then the BoB held little interest for me either.. but I have conme to the point where I really don't care where a sim starts.. it is where it is going and where it can potentially end up that intrests me more.. In 2007 by now I expected CoD to be going into it's 3rd or 4th theater by now.. I think that BoS will in the end have far more Yays than Boos to it's credit and regardless to what many detractors (and there will always be some detractors no matter how good it is..) say and regardless to what ever comes down the pike.. be it a full blown WWII "study" sim or a more well realized WWII MMO .. BoS will have it's place carved out two years from now.. or the genre will have tanked.. I'm leaning toward the former.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3813932 - 07/24/13 07:54 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: Matt W.]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: Matt W.
Wasn't the original IL-2 setup that way? Didn't you have to just survive the mission to advance? I don't think you had to complete your objective, but you did have to at least takeoff and land successfully to move on.


I believe this has always been an option you could set at the start of each campaign.


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#3815792 - 07/29/13 05:29 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Basically BoS is going to be a LOT like RoF in how it works by virtue of the fact that it uses the same engine. No real surprises there.

Now it's not really clarified here, but will BoS have 2 separate campaign modes like ROF does? It has the 2 scripted campaigns (plus the extra St Mihiel one) and then it has the career. Similar ideas, but done very differently. It seems like the ROF career method is what is mentioned here, but I don't think there's a scripted campaign, correct?

To add to the list of dynamic campaigns, though, many were left out. Before Falcon 4 was Falcon 3, it had one. No one mentioned 1942 PAW or EAW. Strike Fighters has one. Il-2 has had one since FB (can't believe no one mentioned THAT one). All the Dynamix sims, from Red Baron 1 through their WWII offerings, had one.
It depends on your definition though. If it's no more than a series of randomly generated missions, there are a large number of titles that did it. If you start talking about the movement of the ground war and all that, the list shrinks.

The fact that OFF gets to capitalize on work done by MS for CFS3 gave them an advantage that 777 didn't have when it started from scratch...after deciding NOT to use Il-2 for its basis. Funny how things come full circle.
KotS was to be based on the Il-2 engine, but instead they went fresh when it became ROF...and now the new Il-2 will use THAT engine. smile




The Jedi Master


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#3815808 - 07/29/13 05:52 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Peally Offline
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No infantry? Darn. Otherwise the sim is looking good!

I still want infantry in RoF....grumble grumble biggrin


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3815819 - 07/29/13 06:13 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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I remember infantry in Red Baron 2. And its deletion in RB3D upgrade. frown




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3815937 - 07/29/13 10:41 PM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Peally Offline
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Yeah there's something about the scale that comes together when foot traffic is modeled. It goes from feeling like a bunch of ground units with AI moving around to an actual believable world and battlefield. Might just be me but I love seeing infantry in flight sims. When it comes down to it the whole purpose of aircraft is to get your boots on the ground to run over the other side's boots. But I'm preaching to the choir.


Scully: Victim died of multiple stab wounds.
Mulder: *throws her a file* Ever heard of the knife alien?
#3815968 - 07/30/13 12:21 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: Jedi Master]  
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RoFfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
To add to the list of dynamic campaigns, though, many were left out. Before Falcon 4 was Falcon 3, it had one. No one mentioned 1942 PAW or EAW. Strike Fighters has one. Il-2 has had one since FB (can't believe no one mentioned THAT one). All the Dynamix sims, from Red Baron 1 through their WWII offerings, had one.
It depends on your definition though. If it's no more than a series of randomly generated missions, there are a large number of titles that did it. If you start talking about the movement of the ground war and all that, the list shrinks.


I don't see where people are getting this "it depends on the definition of dynamic." In flight sims the word has always meant that the outcome of one mission can be seen or felt in the subsequent missions. The only way in which the Red Baron campaign could be called dynamic is that if you killed an ace he would not show up later. That is all.

The really good dynamic campaigns make it possible to lose a battle that was historically won. Imagine the fate of Stalingrad depending on your career of successes and failures, that would be something! A lot more pucker factor than just having to complete a mission in order to proceed. soapbox

#3816015 - 07/30/13 05:02 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: HeinKill]  
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Aero Offline
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I fly pretty much exclusively offline, have marginal interest in co-op (a little too much trouble to arrange most of the time), and virtually no interest in pvp (especially not arena-style, team deathmatch affairs). To me, the most important parts of a "career" mode, is that:

a) The battlefield feels like a battlefield (ie. there are other things going on not directly related to my mission), and there is a sense of grand scale to it (even if that requires some smoke and mirrors).

b) The missions themselves work (the bug in ROF where your flight leader would go chasing after a lone scout 10,000 feet directly above your airbase that we were never going to catch really screwed up a lot of missions and existed far too long).

c) Survival counts, meaning I have a pilot that I'm attached to, and I don't want him to die. I have to more seriously consider my odds of survival when eyeing that AAA emplacement thats on my route home.

d) Enough variety.

Beyond that, a full blown F4-like campaign with AI generals (or me, though I don't really want to) controlling every unit in the war is certainly welcome, but not absolutely necessary. It would definitely be preferable if my actions dictated all the events to come (so maybe I should have gone for that AAA emplacement because it might get me in the next mission). I can live without it, though. Ultimately, given that I can't have everything, I'd rather have more effort put into A, B, C and D. To me, those are the things that matter most while I'm actually flying the missions, which is the real reason I bought the sim in the first place. ROF does that well enough for the most part and it has been gradually improving over time so I feel pretty positive about what I've heard of IL-2's career mode.

#3816022 - 07/30/13 05:41 AM Re: Campaign yays and boos [Re: RoFfan]  
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csThor Offline
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
The really good dynamic campaigns make it possible to lose a battle that was historically won. Imagine the fate of Stalingrad depending on your career of successes and failures, that would be something! A lot more pucker factor than just having to complete a mission in order to proceed. soapbox


Good lord, what a horrible idea! Determine the winner or loser of historical battles via some convoluted mechanism based on player performance (in the air forces to boot) is about as believable and realistic as expecting a straight answer from a politician. That is the greatest sin a campaign system can commit in my book. Dynamic in the campaign sense should be limited to what is realistic and possible - which essentially means the type of missions generated. For example if your Stuka Staffel is supposed to wipe out a russian artillery position but fumbles the first mission you're going to go at it again until it's done. Otherwise history should be both yardstick to measure accuracy and timeline for specific events since nothing a single player does can change the course of events so much that history is altered to a noticable degree.


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