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#3791538 - 06/03/13 10:37 PM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: FlashBurn]  
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My apologies FB, but believe me when I say that what I wrote yesterday I did with a lot of trepidation. From an outsiders POV it just didn't seem like much collaboration in reaching certain objectives was happening with the people who had some knowledge of how SABoW worked, and I now stand corrected on that. I totally believe you when you say SABoW is one complex piece of software. I may not know much when it comes to programming but just from playing PC sims for the past 30 years it's easy to see there is a lot going on under the hood in SABoW.

To be totally honest here FB I would be totally happy (dare I say ecstatic) if someone could someway just import the darn M60 into the other campaigns with whukids new armor and ammo values. To cuss2 with historical accuracy now cause it sure don't matter at this point that I can see. I just want the option to use the M60 for the other 3/4ths of this game besides the T-62.
cheers


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
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#3791740 - 06/04/13 08:03 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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I'm not sure why do you need historical accuracy with whukid's new armor and ammo values. biggrin

#3791744 - 06/04/13 08:16 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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Most mod types where ww2 focused. With no map editor and SO much changed since k42......well apart from Donkin no one was doing ANYTHING in sabow. Well Whukid but he was after IDF. WHICH IS STILL GOOD IDEA.

Which IMO is why another stab at a tank sim during ww2 set up like SABOW would probally do it. DO an eastern theater campaign. Do a Western theater campaign. All bases are covered. With GOOD publisher or self published and MP. WEll could be the deal that brings back armor ww2 sims. But the RISK is HUGE and the money bag types would be scared of the risk. OR force arcade changes to game that would equal suicide IMO. That has been attempted and epic FAIL every time except in air plane sims.

Self funding......well you need cash you can aford to loose. OR something like kickstarter. But you need to raise alot of CASH for a niche thing. But this 30 - 40 dollar price point aint gonna cover the costs. Likly HAVE to be higher.

Last edited by FlashBurn; 06/04/13 08:23 AM.
#3792162 - 06/05/13 01:08 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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Originally Posted By: Krabb
I'm not sure why do you need historical accuracy with whukid's new armor and ammo values. biggrin


I think you misunderstood what I was saying krabb, I DO NOT care about historical accuracy in SABoW now wink

I have not been able to try out whukids tweak since he said I would have to create my own flatdata file and I have no clue how to it (hint, hint). But I don't see how whukids tweak could be any worse in relationship to how the T-62 is represented currently in SABoW. If I may quote Kyth from a post at Graviteams forums concerning this very problem:

From the Overt Russian bias killing SABOW? post by whukid

Kyth: I recently looked at the FAQ by Krabb at the SimHQ forum and realized one thing - the hitboxes for the T55 and T62 are all along the right side of the tank. Maybe this is the explanation? That your aiming at the wrong place?

And I have too agree with his assessment. In one of the final battle of the Iran/Iraq Khuzestan Offensive I played recently I had 4 M60's left versus 2 Iraqis T-62's, and both the T-62's were stuck in a ditch, (their cannon's could barely clear the ditch wall and only at certain sections) easy pickings....or so I thought. My first 2 M60's took a positioned about a 1000 yrds on a hill firing directly down on the T-62's. Despite my firing into them with APDS-1 and HEAT-T rounds the T-62's destroyed these M60's. My third M60 I moved up on the same hill to a position where I thought the T-62's cannons couldn't clear the ditch wall at about 800 yards away. That M60 ended up with everyone dead except the driver after a few APDS-1 rounds fired (guess my "blind spot" position was a little off). My last M60, on the same hill, definitely in a spot where they couldn't train their guns on, at about 200 yards which I would consider point blank range, spent all my remaining APDS-1, HEAT-T and HEP-T rounds and still the T-62's were unaffected. I know this since they killed this M60 too when I blundered a little to close dizzy The one common thread through all this nonsense was all my shots were on the left sides of the T-62's. To be more specific the rounds were actually hitting the top left side, shots to the top left engine compartment...no effect, shots to the top left turret...no effect etc. So if whukids "tweak" helps level the playing field in dealing with the T-55 and T-62 with the M60 I'll take it because the way it is now sure isn't historically accurate either. Even if the T-55 and T-62 are less vulnerable on the left side, at those ranges it shouldn't matter (I would think). But no tank that I know of can take rounds to the top surfaces and be totally unaffected. Unless of course the T-55 and T-62 had some kind of super secret urber armor applied only to the left and top left sides of the tank hahaha

One other side note, anyone notice the in game icons for the APDS-1 and HEAT-T rounds look reversed biggrin
cheers


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
#3792174 - 06/05/13 01:38 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
Most mod types where ww2 focused. With no map editor and SO much changed since k42......well apart from Donkin no one was doing ANYTHING in sabow. Well Whukid but he was after IDF. WHICH IS STILL GOOD IDEA.

Which IMO is why another stab at a tank sim during ww2 set up like SABOW would probally do it. DO an eastern theater campaign. Do a Western theater campaign. All bases are covered. With GOOD publisher or self published and MP. WEll could be the deal that brings back armor ww2 sims. But the RISK is HUGE and the money bag types would be scared of the risk. OR force arcade changes to game that would equal suicide IMO. That has been attempted and epic FAIL every time except in air plane sims.

Self funding......well you need cash you can aford to loose. OR something like kickstarter. But you need to raise alot of CASH for a niche thing. But this 30 - 40 dollar price point aint gonna cover the costs. Likly HAVE to be higher.


Agreed FB, I would pony up a $145.00 USD (I did for SB Pro) but I sure would want more then 2 playable MBT tanks to start with (at least 2 MBT's from US/RU/GB/GER), eastern/western theater maps, an easy to use mission editor and a commitment of continued dev support through the products lifespan and it be self published. Heck if they added more vehicles/maps later via DLC packs (like APOS) I be good with that too and I would happily pay more then the couple bucks they charge now for APOS DLC's. But the reality is andrey12345 has already done a poll on this at Sukhoi.ru and most there (overwhelmingly) picked a free to play-pay for content (like Rise of Flight). Funny how andrey12345 never conducts those polls here since it would be interesting to see how far apart (or of the same mind) the two camps are on this.
cheers


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
#3792261 - 06/05/13 06:24 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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well SB pro price point is to damned high. SOMEDAY I will pull the trigger on it. But even with this 3.0 coming out the engine is just to "old" looking IMO for my tastes. However, still on the find the penny's list of thing I need to get. Also seems to support user work.... biggrin But even if 49.99 ....that extra 10 or 20 bucks could fund 1 or 2 more playable tanks. ALL depends on end sales. Adding in new vehicles and content later would CERTAINLY appeal to the hardcore tanker. AND spreads the risk. But heres the thing with GRAVITEAM. THeir primary game is GTOS series. THis makes cash. Not a huge amount but enough to keep them going. AND its a damned good series. BUt SABOW is the same game engine. Making vehicle sims from the assets made for GTOS spreads the risk. They are in unique position in that not all the eggs are in one basket. would LOVE for them to look at unusual approaches to getting a sim out there. LIKE some of what some the other small fry independants do. Such as bring onboard talented folks with passion for tank sims and pay them on the BACK END after sales. Folks would not make much money as this sort of thing is not goona sell 1000000 copys. Issues abound but it cost them like 20000 dollars for the playable tanks in SABOW. For niche product....thats quite alot. Or if they could JUST FREAKEN UNLOCK the sim stuff in GTOS. LOL. Not as easy as just that, but you see my point.

In the end we have NO IDEA how many copys of SABOW got sold. How many copys would have to get sold to break even and of course generate profit to fund next things. Brake even is no good as leaves no moneys to fund projects.

They also need MORE expossure in main stream press in the West. Issues with this one as this takes money. Usually this is what the damned publisher is suppose to do. But current mega publishers are only interested in garbage like COD.

#3792263 - 06/05/13 06:42 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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Oh on the T62. Want to point out that in hull down the m60 and take a HUGE beating on the front turret. I think the ai of the t62 know exactly where to aim for bad things to happen on the M60. For massive kill knowing where the ammo is stored is key. BUT I think the spall effect need to get more looked at. Firing a heat round into the crew conpartment of a t62 should result in dead and vary wounded crew. Now in sabow it seems when dealing with tanks you have to pretty much aim at crew position and kill them one by one if you can not get a shot on ammo magazine. Oddly enough I do not see this happening as bad in GTOS DLC's using t62, t55, oliphant, or m60. Same damage/ammo models right?

#3792640 - 06/06/13 12:35 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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Well FB if your not seeing this problem as much in GTOs then I would concur that something definitely changed compared to SABoW. Now are the files interchangeable? I couldn't even hazard a guess (or would know where to look for a comparison).

Also I did want to point out that the first, second and fourth M60 in my AAR got more then just a couple rounds into those T-62's before they (the M60's) were destroyed. This wasn't a quick draw event as the T-62's didn't even know I was there until several rounds dropped on their heads. I don't remember the exact amount of rounds impacting on those T-62's but it's safe to say each received no less then 10 hits each of mostly APDS-1 and HEAT-T and those shots were not spray and pray either. Those T-62's should have brewed up long before I lost my 4 M60's considering where the shots were placed and the range they were fired from.

As for the price of $145.00 for SB Pro, well all I can say is you get what you pay for. Yes I agree SB Pro may not be worth $145.00 If you base it solely on the GFX but it makes up for it in other departments fo'sure. The real sad part for SABoW is this title could have commanded a SB Pro price too had it been self published (not tied to the whims of crappy publishers) had a few more user playable units, a few more maps and an easy to use mission editor, had some form of MP, and had continued dev support and upgrades. But SABoW had one thing SB Pro might never get and that is it looks so much better. If you look strictly at SABoW and SB Pro on the most basic of level's SABoW isn't a poor mans SB Pro. The playable armor is done to a high degree of fidelity (except for the T-62 and it's undefeatable left side armor wink ) SABoWs SP AI is better then SB Pro, the GFX is better as are a few other things. I had high hopes for SABoW but not as a direct competitor to SB Pro since they model 2 totally different era's of armored warfare but as a title that could have reached the status of a premier armored sim like SB Pro. If I could convince Graviteam of one thing if they were doing a new WW2 armored sim it would be offer what SB Pro does, self publish and charge accordingly.
cheers


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
#3792670 - 06/06/13 02:52 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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"Had","was","could have","if only". This all sounds like a post-mortem, is the game not available any more?


"It's fascinating to think that all around us there's an invisible world we can't even see.
I'm speaking, of course, of the World of the Invisible Scary Skeletons."

#3792692 - 06/06/13 04:17 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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But current mega publishers are only interested in garbage like COD.

I think you are being too harshly judgmental Flashburn. COD may not be your kind of game( it ain't mine either) but calling it garbage is your point of view. As I said I don't care for that type of gameplay but in its genre it's well made and it appeals to the masses. Not everybody gets off on sims tank or others and everybody is entitled to have the type of games they enjoy playing it's matter of taste. Games are for entertainment not education nor status. I , for one, enjoy playing Steel Fury and Steel Beasts and BF3 and Far Cry 3, Arma 2 and Stalker as well. I don't see any contradiction in it; just having a gamut of different tastes to suit my mood of the moment or the free time I have available to play. If somebody likes Cod or Black Ops or Counterstrike or Medal of Honour then I am happy for them even though I don't share their interest.We have to be tolerant of different folks , different strokes.

#3792719 - 06/06/13 07:51 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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I tested T-62 left side yesterday, both in SABOW and GTOS. All I can say they are easily get on fire from 3-4 hits, tried at distances from 500 m to 1.5 km. I don't know why you have problems with them. And Andrey told me armor settings of tanks were not changed in GTOS. Maybe you do something wrong, bad tactics and such? biggrin

As of COD, I agree with FlashBurn, it IS garbage, who plays it for a long time? It's like you complete the game once, having all that mindless fun, and then throw it away forever. Only few individuals maybe play it more than that. So, how do you call something you throw away? Exactly. Even publishers think of it like that, it gets its first big sales, then new shiny super-duper all the new title appears, and they forget about the old. And about tolerance you should tell that those COD folks, when they say their grand opinion about a serious game, too hard, too stupid, you know.

#3792745 - 06/06/13 11:14 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: frinik22]  
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Originally Posted By: frinik22
But current mega publishers are only interested in garbage like COD.

I think you are being too harshly judgmental Flashburn. COD may not be your kind of game( it ain't mine either) but calling it garbage is your point of view. As I said I don't care for that type of gameplay but in its genre it's well made and it appeals to the masses. Not everybody gets off on sims tank or others and everybody is entitled to have the type of games they enjoy playing it's matter of taste. Games are for entertainment not education nor status. I , for one, enjoy playing Steel Fury and Steel Beasts and BF3 and Far Cry 3, Arma 2 and Stalker as well. I don't see any contradiction in it; just having a gamut of different tastes to suit my mood of the moment or the free time I have available to play. If somebody likes Cod or Black Ops or Counterstrike or Medal of Honour then I am happy for them even though I don't share their interest.We have to be tolerant of different folks , different strokes.


It is frustration talking. AT the dawn of PC gaming SO many games where thinking man games. YA there where others as well of course. Fast forward to now...... WELL I sware to gawd people have either become more stupid or just lazy. COD and clones have changed the face of what gets made. EASY accessible brain dead is IN, intelligent is OUT. With sales of COD sort of games SO high, and publishers getting so few, well we get stuck with endless stream of BAD. It effects all vain of game types. Of course it is a glass bubble. You can only make the same thing X many of times. Publishers do not make games....they just are money bags. AND they want to make ALOT of money. Which is both good and bad really. The big publishers just focus in on mega AAA projects and leave floor open for niche small frys. THIS IS GOOD. But they can not match in distribution and such. Which is also only concerned about MAX profit. The issue becomes as a small company making a great niche thing.......well its a HIGH stair way to clime now a days. But invovation and the next GREAT thing will come from here as nearly AWLAYS. Why graviteam will likly never get on something like steam. If it did, it would sell. But not mega millions of copys. I really liked old impulse before bought by gamersgate. Alot of great gems on there from small independants. But now pretty much down to gamersgate. And they are getting odd sometimes on what to distribute. SAles direct can work but someone has to KNOW about the game to start with.......

And COD 1 and 2 where not bad at all in there day. But do not resemble at all what they are now.

#3792912 - 06/06/13 05:30 PM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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Unfortunately gaming is a business, a big one like car making, appliances, computers and electronics etc...What do we get in terms of cars of electronics? Mostly second rate stuff mass-produced, not very original and not made to last or shine but to make big profits for the manufacturers and distributors. The same, I am afraid, goes for gaming. A lot of mass-production with each company cloning their competitors games to outdo them and very few gems. That's what consumerism has created; it has made cheap and available to the public at large many things that were in the old days reserved for the elite or the few wealthy omes.The downside it's all for mass appeal and little class.

#3793114 - 06/07/13 01:46 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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Originally Posted By: Krabb
I tested T-62 left side yesterday, both in SABOW and GTOS. All I can say they are easily get on fire from 3-4 hits, tried at distances from 500 m to 1.5 km. I don't know why you have problems with them. And Andrey told me armor settings of tanks were not changed in GTOS. Maybe you do something wrong, bad tactics and such? biggrin


Wow krabb I never knew you needed to be tactical genius to take out 2 enemy tanks stuck in a ditch with their firepower pretty much neutered, you hold a 2 to 1 advantage, you hold the high ground on a slope shooting directly down into them hahaha

Also I never said I had a problem with the M60 being able to kill T-62's or T-55 or anything in Quick Battles. Actually the M60 seems quite up to the task as is the T-62, but I noticed in a campaign the M60 can be totally different animal under certain circumstances. What I think you missing in my description of the problems I have experienced is two things that seem to sometimes trigger a problem.
1). It only affects the M60 if your using that vehicle.
2). It's late in the campaign and your winning.

Look I'm not saying this is normal, or even consistently repeatable, but I have noticed SABoW can do some odd things on occasion late in a campaign when again:
1). Your winning the campaign
2). Your using the M60.

And before anyone accuses me of trying to formulate some kind of strange T-62 conspiracy theory I need to mention another anomaly that again seemed only to happen late in the campaign when:
1). Your winning the campaign
2). Using the M60.
Anyone remember the Head Damage problem I reported before the last update? A few players reported they had it happen too if I recall correctly so I know it wasn't an event experienced by one player only. Again I was pretty much rolling up the Iraqi Army and was pushing deep into their territory, I thought I had this campaign won. I would check my units at the end of a phase and make sure to send damaged or depleted units back to repair or supply units at the start of the next Tactical/Deployment phases (as I always do). When I started the battle up to 1/2 my remaining M60's would report Head Damage and high tail it to the rear confused So I just restarted that phase over again and the same thing happened again cuss I restarted the phase again but this time I started with an outside external view from my tank watching the other tanks in my platoon. I figured maybe my units must be coming under artillery attack or sapper's with portable ATM's or a hidden enemy mortar teams . As I watched nothing was happening for a few seconds, no artillery, no sapper, no motar fire, no small arms fire...nothing. As luck would have it suddenly 2 M60's in my platoon reported Head Damage and did a 180 heading straight for the rear lines followed by reports from my other M60 platoons that one or two were having Head Problems too banghead

Two things I noticed about this Head Damage:
1). It never happened in the Iran/Iraq Campaign I played using the T-62 (even when I was winning).
2). This Head Damage problem for the M60 totally disappeared when the last update came out, I never experienced it again or have I heard anyone else report it again after the last update.

We all agree SABoW is a complex piece of software and as such I think we can agree it is very possible that a bug could be in the game that only appears under certain circumstances or under certain conditions. And it is also possible that it could affect only one type of vehicle. And I think this is exactly what is happening.
cheers


"It's the man, not the machine" Gen Chuck Yeager
#3793216 - 06/07/13 09:32 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: Krabb]  
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YA that head damage bug was LAME. Assmusing sometimes...ok not really. Yes it IS possible that some wierd bug still resides in the M60. I once killed a m60 with .50 cal MG from my testing of playable (sort of) m113. On the FRONT of turret too. That should NOT be possible. But was never able to recreate it. May have been one in a million thing. Like bullet went threw commanders vision slot and somehow hit ammo. OR a hit box under certain events is sticking threw mesh. This would mean the armor simulation would not take into account as the damage box is out side the thing. THis I have wondered about with the m60. But hard to test. Usually for me it works as advertised...well except being able to turn out when ever I want. But this related to the simulation of the range finder I think. Seems to be one or the other....which SUCKS.

Becasue of STUPID publishers... I think SABOW is pretty dead as far as a future goes. Still vary good. But I really hope we see WW2 tank sim in same vane. biggrin Just a weee bit more polish and coming up with a way to make more accessable to newbies. THAT IS hard as the complex level of tank sim and making EASY for new guys are not really compatible. Ok why lie....I want to tankers version of GTOS Mius...LOL>

PLayable pz3 series, maybe a stug, halftracks, M3a1 steward (cause I am wierd), t34 version (probably 1942 version as they did 1941 in k43), KV1 would be nice or any of the SU series. I really think su76 would be VARY interesting choice. But so would t60/t70. Of course they could never do all that at once. BUT DLC's.......... A new vehicle with updated campaigns.... well I can dream..... Man I would LOVE to make playable m3a1 stuart. That would be FUN. Or even 250 series of half tracks... Or su76. Ok WELL you get the idea. DOing in K42.......well after sabows campaign system..no interest in modding k42. frown Still GREAT game and keep my disk close at hand JUST in CASE.

Last edited by FlashBurn; 06/07/13 09:47 AM.
#3801680 - 06/26/13 07:27 AM Re: [SABOW] Quick Start for Beginners [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
PLayable pz3 series, maybe a stug, halftracks, M3a1 steward (cause I am wierd), t34 version (probably 1942 version as they did 1941 in k43), KV1 would be nice or any of the SU series. I really think su76 would be VARY interesting choice. But so would t60/t70. Of course they could never do all that at once. BUT DLC's.......... A new vehicle with updated campaigns.... well I can dream..... Man I would LOVE to make playable m3a1 stuart. That would be FUN. Or even 250 series of half tracks... Or su76. Ok WELL you get the idea. DOing in K42.......well after sabows campaign system..no interest in modding k42. frown


You might want to reconsider, the Stuart and SU76M would be much needed additions to K42. smile


"It's fascinating to think that all around us there's an invisible world we can't even see.
I'm speaking, of course, of the World of the Invisible Scary Skeletons."

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