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#3796140 - 06/13/13 02:55 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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AndyB Offline
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Hi,
Had a bit play with it in Photoshop:




Cheers,

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3797152 - 06/15/13 12:11 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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That's awesome Andy. Thanks for helping me out. I like the colors now and I think I will go that route. I'll meet next week with our designer who made company logo, website and stuff and present him this solution. It's really good to have your help in hand Andy, as no matter how good designer is - he's not a flight sim enthusiast like us and don't know right Font and colors to put in like you do - so this is really a good start point for web.

As for the pedals, I finaly made a proper cam. Feel is just awesome and realistic. Spring does the centering, but there's no centering feel when you cross center. Strenght is properly increasing from middle to the end of deflection. I have easily adjusted spring settings to simulate cessna 172, 182, Antonov AN-2, Piper Super Cub and Citabria feel. I flew some other planes but too long ago to remember how rudder feel like. Helicopters I never flew so I'll give it to real pilots to see what they have to say. Bell pilot told me that it's really loose in bell. Mi-8 pilot told me that it's very hard feeling and behaviour similar to plane. My father also flew Mi-8 in army , back in 90-s and told me the same- very hard feeling and that It has some button on stick to apply hidraulic pressure on rudder to get it easier, otherwise it's so hard that it will be impossible to fly. Hard thing about this is that pilots don't study it - they fly. So they don't know how much KG of pressure they need to put to apply rudder so only way of knowing is to make cam profile and give them for testing and rely mostly on their senses and feel.


The bad : I've tested this cam profile too, and while it is realistic it require strong force to apply full rudder. Generaly it's good for Civil sims as you rarely apply full rudder and you need realism as much as possible, but I think it's not to good for combat sims as you apply rudder in small quick movements and more often so you want it a bit more loose and precise than it is realistic ,right ? Please give your opinion on this dillema !!!

I will make one more CAM to have less proportional strenght increase, which I think will be more suitable for combat sims, and give both to testing to Croatian combat sim community.

P.S. I am still amazed how much differene CAM profile brings to pedals feel. Every profile feel like a new set of pedals :-) Amazing.

#3797161 - 06/15/13 12:36 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Lausbub78 Offline
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As much as I prefer realism my self,it's not always a good idea to have it at any cost. If you really need a lot of force to push the Pedals it propably can get very tiresome when flying for a longer time. And you have to think on the people using Chairs with wheels also. With a higher force the chair propably will slide backwards more easy.
The springforce of the Simpeds I find about right. It's not too soft to feel loose and not too strong to be uncomfortable. I don't know if you have Simpeds to compare and of course it depends on personal preference.

In some cases it just has no benefit to simulate the real thing,and in my opinion the strength of the Pedals is such a case.

Edit. Though it should be easy to replace the spring with a weaker one if it's too strong for individual persons. You just can't please everyone with every detail.^^

Last edited by Lausbub78; 06/15/13 12:40 PM.
#3797273 - 06/15/13 05:34 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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As you know In my pedals it's a higly adjustable spring. You have a spring tension adjustment and two spring positions...so it's easy to make it weaker or stronger. The thing is with this new realistic cam If you make it weaker for the end of deflection than it would be too loose in the center.

I agree with you that It shouldn't be full realistic at all cost. It's a must to be comfortable for simulation use, and then to be as realistic as it can without decreasing comfort. On many areas I somehow make piece with these two opposing requirements, mostly by making pedals full adjustable. This spring is also like that. I will make it close to realistic, but ty decreasing spring force and putting spring in cam position 1. you can make it more comfortable but still not too loose around center. Then I will also deliver different cam with slight centering feel and also adjustable strenght by means of spring.

This is also a proof of concept that in future I can make full realistic cam and spring for specific plane as an extra cost option and make it cost more than material :-) and earn some money on people who really need this for professional use :-) Such customers can also make their own profile or so If I provide drawing and calculatio base for it. There are a lot of possibilities but I'm focused on general use now.

Edit : I forget to tell you one thing. By streching spring you don't have a linear strenght increase, that is major problem in designing CAM. So cam, besides being asymetric, must have that spring strenght irregularity implemented. If I strech a spring too much it will not return to originating lenght or might get loose with time, so this is also a factor in choosing spring. So it's most difficult on pedals but I'm getting on a goal.

Last edited by milan_croatia; 06/15/13 05:39 PM.
#3797515 - 06/16/13 09:21 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Brandano Offline
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Well, with an ideal spring the force the spring applies is directly proportional to the distance it is stretched. But I realize that there are no ideal springs. Probably it would be useful to write a small script that, given a curve for displacement/force for the pedal and a another for the spring generates the cam profile to get the two to match.

#3797522 - 06/16/13 10:17 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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I made 3x different springs for these pedals to test. Slightly different diameter, number of circles, wire thicknes. And then I also used different materials for the same spring :-) None of them behave like proportional strenght increase. What's the total streching distance is also a big factor. It's hard to explain so I'll explain like this. Let's say total streching distance is 60 mm. Streching it to cca 35mm has a proportional strenght increase. Then behaviour changes from 40 to 55mm. Well, it's still proportional, but it's less increase in force than it is for first 35mm. Than again last 5 mm it's again more strenght increase. I try to incorporate that in a cam to be more linear strenght increase with as a deflection goes.

Note that with adjustable spring strenght I am actualy adjusting starting point for spring streching - therefore changing spring behaviour trhuout the cam movement. So I make cam little more universal instead of perfect.

I made an excel table with all factors to calculate spring streching upon every pedal deflection angle. Then I incorporate it in geometry to get a cam. I made 2x cams for last model which was wider and now I made 3x more. I will probably make 2x more to get it right to deliver 2x good cams for the end user. Every time I make a cam I make it on CNC and test it. Rapid prototyping :-) Now I clearly see where I want it to strech differently and based on parameters of all 3 already made cams I easy make 4th cam which will be little bit more tight in the middle and little bit more loose at the end than 3rd cam is.

#3798591 - 06/18/13 07:53 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Finally CAM 4 - a perfect curve for my taste :-) Now I don't think we will need a spare cam, but will let testers decide.

CAM specs :
- no centering feel - no "bump" you need to overcome, nice soft feel no matter if you use weak or strong spring settings.
- first 3 % of pedal deflection is very weak strenght - then next 10-13 % of deflection is a bit steeper strenght increase, and the rest is linear strenght increase with deflection (Note : this way even without centering feel you know when you are around center, but it is non intrusive so you can still make all fine rudder movements)
- Full rudder deflection doesn't require so much force like before, it's 90% of true aircraft behavior, strenght reduced for home simulation use.
- It is now possible to use chair with weels if spring is adjusted to 30 % strenght or less ( Most likely settings on these rudder will be around 30-50 % spring strenght. Less is for people who like it loose, more is for people who persuit true realism.


P.S. Past few days I was amazed how my shooting accuracy improved with CAM3 - no center feel on ROF -DR1. But, sometimes I really didn't know if I was applying rudder slightly to the left or to the right - in the heat of a dogfight. Now with CAM4 I have the same accuracy, even better as full rudder deflection is easier a bit, but I also know when I am applying rudder to the left or right when around zero rudder deflection. That's why I did a profile like that and I think It's really something you will like.


Now, back to my final worry...cables
I am really thinking of doing it something like on this picture. The bad : cables can are visible. The good : Big cable loop so cables will last longer, Now I predict more than 10 years of moderate to heavy use. Also, Connectors will be user acessible so cables easy to order and replace if they break. I think this is good as cables are cheap, can be sent to you in envelope or you can even easy build it yourself without any soldering or crimping

This cleary has more pro than cons, but BIG question...is it too ugly ??? Please leave your coment on this!


#3798603 - 06/18/13 08:40 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Volans Offline
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It's not very ugly, but it will break the general look... such a nice and smooth finish... and there a pair of ugly wires. My advice is to find another solution, even if not so durable.

#3798611 - 06/18/13 09:04 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Brandano Offline
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They look fine to me, but I have my own pedals (that look much uglier) that suit me fine, so it's not me you have to sell them to. Two alternate solutions I can think of are: you could run two short lengths of coiled wire to two posts on the bottom frame, and then run the wires from there in slots to the electronics box. Or you could run them both in two parallel loops doing an entire loop around the front pivot, loose enough that they won't get stretchet at the extremes of the movement. This last solution could even be enclosed within a vac-formed plastic cup to hide the wires out of the way and avoid them getting tangled with the centering mechanism. How did you get the wires to run around the pedal pivots? Do you need three separate conductors for each sensor or you can run all the signals through 4 wires (positive rail, ground rail and two signals)? In this last case you could also consider using old wired telephone handset cables, crimped with rj11 connectors and sockets. Analog signals are not as susceptible to disturbances as modulated or digital signals.

#3798647 - 06/18/13 10:11 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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choowy Offline
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Nice work, I"m not sure from the pics whether the cable has to flex or not but if it doesn't and you need to just run it back from stationary sensors I would run the cable straight down to the base through a hole in the main body and then embed it in a trench which you could fill with black silicon. That way it would be hidden completely. Hope that makes sense. The groove or trench could be cut into the base when cutting the main sections.

If you are using hall sensors mount the magnet on the moving arm and the sensor on the stationary base then you should have no worries routing a cable.

#3798673 - 06/18/13 11:30 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Brandano Offline
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The rudder sensor is stationary and nicely hidden under the base. Those two cables are for the toe brakes

#3798696 - 06/19/13 01:01 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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choowy Offline
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OK thanks Brandano makes sense now, I'm not too familiar with anything that fly's.

OK another option which gets a little more complicated would be to go through the center pivot point and have a hollow shaft that the cable could exit down below to the base that way the cables aren't flexing hardly when you move the pedal back and forth. May need to incorporate a small cover piece where they enter the top of the shaft as side entry may be difficult. You could have the cable hidden under the back support arm then enter the hollow shaft from the side if there is room.

Without knowing exactly how the system couples together now I don't know if its possible to incorporate such a hollow shaft, it will be a little larger diameter than current, but hollow so weight should not change too much. Just use a larger outside nut maybe. Probably sounds crazy.

What if you route them on the other side below the cam assembly, at least then its harder to see from where you would be sitting. Use a single coiled cable that splits and incorporates both switches.

It doesn't look too bad now but as Volans says it is such a nice clean look now, pity to see the cables if you can avoid it.

#3798721 - 06/19/13 02:29 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Thanks for trying to help :-) That's why I posted here in a first place. It's a pitty I will not show complete design inside out so you could really understand and help, but you can think a few reasons for not posting that details yourself :-)

Choowy, If you look at the cam picture I posted you will clearly see some wires on each side...that's becouse last two cams are smaller and there's some free space now in this prototype's front arm. Long story short what you suggested I already tried...in fact It was designed that way.

I use GVL224 controller now with magnetoresistor on board and magnet on main pivot axle. That's for rudder - bulletproof. every brake has 3pin wire for itself for much more stable reading, shielded cables too.

As far as cables... you tried to explain to me something what is common at any motorcycle today. Well, they pass signals in much more raw way than hall sensors do. I'll put it to you this way...you've probably used a microphone which works nicely when cable standing still but if you strech or bend microphone cable you hear some "whooo" sound, noise. Well controller see that noise as some spike from cables. That's gonna happen when cables wear out. They will work, but spiky.

Funny thing is that I made this problem myself. When desighning the mechanics I achieved much bigger rotation angle than standard baloo style pedals - for let's say equal deflection travel my pedals rotate 80% more around main pivot. It's good as it's more precise rudder reading, but it's bad for cables as they travel longer :-(


What do you think of this :
1. Put cables back under front support arm
2. Make as nisce loop as I can so cables last long
3. Make bigger hole where cable goes inside upport so connectors can be unpluged without taking apart whole assembly
4. Connectors on both sides of cable
5. Deliver spare set of cables to the customer for easy - no soldering exchange when first ones goes spiky
6. Use standard 2.54 pitch connector so it's easy to get anywhere in the world.

Also I would make it possible to buy as a spare part...send in envelope for couple of euros

Note : I did think about telephone RJ11 connectors. Onfortunately I can get only some cheap female RJ11 which are bad..ones that can be soldered to the PCB. Also RJ11 is much bigger than 3pin 2.54 pitch connector and hard to put thru the support arm by end user. Also standard telephone cable is 4 thinner wire - no shielding - more noise on signal and will break more quickly.

#3798865 - 06/19/13 02:03 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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I decided to start production with visible cables. simpeds had it, vkb has it and so will I.

on the other side. I Will usr hidden cables myself so if they last long I might change my opinion.

I need to make product bulletproof, no gamble... and visible cables give 5 times more durability, i guess.

It wont be so ugly like in my pics but it is going to ruin the design a bit. cables are in a nice safe place so i think its good to go.

#3799087 - 06/19/13 09:26 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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You could consider creating cable channels, so the future owner could decide to let the cable exit front/back/left/right.

#3799157 - 06/19/13 11:41 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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That's hard as even I can't decide properly.

It can only go from the back as left is spring, up front is cam. Right side is free.
I don't want support plate to look like a swiss cheese anyway. Why do you think end user should decide that. It's gonna be under the table or something anyway so you won't admire the details much while you fly...they must be sturdy, accurate, long lasting, adjustable. Pretty design is a plus, but not at the cost of quality....no no, not in my eyes


P.S. I just realised ...pedals already have much swiss chees characteristics :-)

Last edited by milan_croatia; 06/19/13 11:48 PM.
#3800683 - 06/23/13 04:52 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Lausbub78 Offline
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I got one Question about the surface finish. Will the surface on the Footrests wear off or even peel off over time because it's always in contact with the feet moving on the surface? I think I've never saw the material you're using although at work we are using a lot of different materials. So I'm just curious.

#3800918 - 06/24/13 11:14 AM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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You are worried becouse what I did to main screw :-) Don't worry. Main screw was glued with extremely strong glue, and I had to pull it apart and crashed surface by a really brute force.

Maybe you didn't come across material I use, but you did with surface finish. It's HPL laminate in white commonly used all over the world on places with high wear contact. For example - in boat interior for worktops, small table tops, some medical equipment, wall coverings, you name it.

There is no sharp edges either - all bevel edges.

In order to take white surface off you will need approx half hour with 150 mm diameter orbital sander and 120 grit paper. I don't know if this means anything...but it won't wear of at least 15 years, that's least of my worries :-)


Anyway testing doing fine, 2x produced samples behaving like designed - excellent.
I'm still waiting for a man with simpeds to test mine...but he's not available till 10.07...so I decided to wait with production model untill all tests are finished and everybody happy.

In a meanwhile I do other preparations - packing stuff, logo, website, paypal, some legal mumbo jumo - since Croatia is about to enter EU within a few days it's a mess. So I know it should be customs free to EU customers from 01.07 but I don't know how to make international bill yet...with tax or not ?! EU Customers pay tax to me ?? Others pay their tax on import ??

Warranty !!
Pedals will come with 2 year limited warranty. Limited means that if something goes wrong I send replacement parts and instructions to replace. I think that won't be necessary - ever, but need to make some policy about it. Do you think this is OK ?

2 year becouse I can't take all the risk for unlimited time, and two year is more or less standard these days. As time goes by, and everything goes ok I might increase warranty...since I don't intend to have warranty claims, hopefully, not at all :-)

#3800936 - 06/24/13 12:51 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Brandano Offline
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I think that two years is mandatory by law in Europe, though I am not sure what the terms of the warranty should be. I think it will only cover production defects, and should naturally exclude any wear issues. That said, for a short production run, made on order, like this is, the European guidelines might not even apply.

#3800959 - 06/24/13 01:59 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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You are about right. Nothing should go wrong.

I am shure there will be no wear defects, or design flaw :-)

I will limit forces used up to 40 kg per pedal, 80 kg on base mechanisam...that's just fine. Operating temps are roughly speaking for shure -20 to 80 degree...I don't think that would be exceeded.

So I'm left with possible defects in material, faulty bearing or imperfections in composite cousing cracks, or my defect in production. I don't even think these pedals can be damaged by impact in transport.

So faulty bearing I will resolve right away, and any cracks can be clearly seen from user pictures if they are from too much force or a defective material...since stress cracks leave nice marks like carbon fibers...easy for me.

On top of that...I made shure I have enough room over design limits by making it stronger...so even If one bearing is not operating just right there are two or three others too take a hit...still within limits. Even if material has some internal defect it's hardly to break since it's made so sturdy.

As for wear...if you look my pedal sliding principle in old pedals...and they show no signs of wear after 1,5 year...then I don't know what would couse this design to wear. Only real wearing element is CAM, but who knows after how many years...and will only show slightly different spring characteristic...so you tighten a bit more and that's it.

On top of that, I'll put in warranty that I will provide spare parts something like 10 years from day of payment.

I made an ugly cabling now...but that should last too, and can be replaced.
My controller supplier confirmed 2 year warranty...he has more than 100 controllers sold over more than two years and say he has no complains :-) So cheers to Baur BRD :-)

So I think I covered this subject, and end users can be happy too.

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