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#3687355 - 11/23/12 08:30 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) *****  
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RifleFighter Offline
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Hello
I try to get into the sim with perhaps the most simple of the systems as far as I noticed. I tried to engage a B52 target drone which have both dm and cm jam equipment. I accuire the ep and beta as told in the manual and I assume it's range using the tables in "A" view and I use the bore sight control in order to move the range line into place but I can't "lock on" (press the right mouse button in the R area) and therefore there is not envelope or any sign for firing the missile.

I saw that in the Volhov you can set the height of the target manualy which solves the problem. but how do you do it in the Dvina?

thanks
RF

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3687363 - 11/23/12 08:42 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: RifleFighter]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: RifleFighter
Hello
I try to get into the sim with perhaps the most simple of the systems as far as I noticed. I tried to engage a B52 target drone which have both dm and cm jam equipment. I accuire the ep and beta as told in the manual and I assume it's range using the tables in "A" view and I use the bore sight control in order to move the range line into place but I can't "lock on" (press the right mouse button in the R area) and therefore there is not envelope or any sign for firing the missile.

I saw that in the Volhov you can set the height of the target manualy which solves the problem. but how do you do it in the Dvina?

thanks
RF


There is no way to lock-on in range on the jamming target... This is the idea of jamming.... Please, post your questions into the relevant topic.
You should set radiofuse activation to "11 sec" ant use T/T mode, launching 3 miisiles salvo...
Good luck...

#3691278 - 12/01/12 03:58 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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i cant understand why dvina dont have ground clutter ! rolleyes

#3691297 - 12/01/12 04:39 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: farokh]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: milang
i cant understand why dvina dont have ground clutter ! rolleyes


All "monkey" versions of USSR equipment has limited performance, compared to those, used in USSR and Warsaw pact... Also USSR were worried about know-how stealing from China...

#3695362 - 12/08/12 06:49 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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My favorite system in Simulator is the Dvina!

Who knows what Range the K3 to effectively use shoot a missile is better.

#3704330 - 12/22/12 05:39 AM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Question on what Distance to use the K3?

#3736921 - 02/17/13 04:54 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Wolfhound Offline
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I just started using SAMSIM a couple of days ago (using the SA-2F) and must say what a brilliant job Hpasp has done, I'm really enjoying it. smile

I have a questions about the SA-2F:

Using the Asuluk range for practice (I've had to substitute some characters in the names of some functions as there is no cyrillic formatting)

1) Set-up at the Asuluk range against a simulated FB-111 flying below 300m.
The manuals says to use the 'K' guidance method with the proximity fuse switch in the down position (red lights on). I've noticed that with these setting all of my missiles fail to hit the target.
If however I select the centre proximity fuse positions (no red or green lights illuminated), I can achieve great success with either 'K', 'YNP' or 'T/T'. According to the manual the ground clutter should confuse the fuse, but this never happens?

2) The 'BKN. CNHXP' button described on page 33, is supposed to synchronise the missile launchers with the azimuth and elevation of the radar. While this does cause the 'CNHXP. NY' lights to illuminate, suggesting the launchers are synchronised, the red indicators on the elevation and azimuth dials suggest otherwise?

3) Is there a way of zooming in on the Plotting Board display, as when there are multiple contacts in close proximity, it becomes impossible to read the target parameters?

4) On the I-64 panel (Q - button), what are the functions of the following switches, buttons & indicators?:
a) 'PK' & KC' which are next to 'EP' (live fire mode).
b) There is a switch that activates a red light labelled 'PNK'.
c) To the right of the red 'PNK' light is a row of 5 switches. They are all inactivate with the exception of the third switch.
d) On the radio fuse selection indicator 'PAE. NO AHA'.

5) On the I-62 panel (Y or Z buttons), the is a large black four position knob below the white 'Antenna / Dummy' switch. It looks like it cycles between launchers, but I'm not sure. What is it's function?

Thanks

Last edited by Wolfhound; 02/17/13 04:56 PM.

*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3736960 - 02/17/13 06:13 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Wolfhound]  
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piston79 Offline
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It would be easier to use screenshots to illustrate your questions..

1) Only Hpasp could explain programming, but those are correct settings... I killed it with 2 from 3...

2) Don't get your point, looks fine to me!

3) No, as in real life...

4)
a - KS (Control station), a maintnance/calibration mode; RK - don't know..
b - yes there is it is for transmiting K1/K2 commands without real launch, just to frighten the enemy. The name is RPK not RNK.
c - don't know
d - it's "Rab. po ADA" which means "Working on spy baloons" - it sends K3 earlier, to create a bigger shrapnel cloud...

5) yes, you're switching between launchers...

#3737034 - 02/17/13 08:38 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: piston79]  
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Wolfhound Offline
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Thanks for the help piston79. I forgot to ask, what does the H<1 indicator under the breakable missile channels seal signify?

Below is a sequence of what occurs against the low flying FB-111. The last two images are from a different launch as I missed pressing 'PrtScn':









I launch at just under 30km.
About 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 of these launches ever gets close enough to register a hit or kill. I'm almost 100% successful if I leave the radio fuse on (no red or green lights) with 'K' guidance or if I use 'T/T' guidance with radio fuse off (red light active).


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3737061 - 02/17/13 09:30 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Wolfhound]  
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piston79 Offline
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I believe that the problem here is the parameter of the target... The radiofuse is more effective than initiation by K3 command, but it shouldn't be possible for using on low altitude above ground as it should detonate right after it was armed ( a bit later than "Rab. po K3" mode...).

About <1 light - this is special mode against low altitude targets, not simulated... In reality the ground returns echo of the target signal and on epsilon (and sometimes beta screen, if target goes near steep hill, or mountain) you should see second target return (mirror target), or the target return should looks like the sign of the infinity, which could confuse the system. So <1 mode is about helping for that issue, but don't know how it works...



Last edited by piston79; 02/17/13 09:59 PM.
#3737098 - 02/17/13 10:59 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Wolfhound Offline
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Appreciate the help piston79.

I think the business with the fuse may be a bug, because I have never know for it to have caused a detonation due to ground clutter. Also the 'K' guidance command should still lead the target in azimuth. In all the missile fly-outs with 'K' guidance, the SA-2 flies in a fashion so as to maintain a position at least 4 degree to the right of the radar beam azimuth. Then at end game it tries to swing to the left as show in images 6 & 7 I posted and misses nearly all the time.

The picture you posted of <1 reminds me of terrain bounce jamming. I can't read cyrillic however I feel that the illustrations and your description of a mirror image from the target return may form part of the underlying concept of terrain bounce jamming.

Last edited by Wolfhound; 02/18/13 01:45 PM.

*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3737533 - 02/18/13 05:57 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Wolfhound]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wolfhound

The picture you posted of <1 reminds me of terrain bounce jamming. I can't read cyrillic however I feel that the illustrations and your description of a mirror image from the target return may form part of the underlying concept of terrain bounce jamming.


No, no jamming here, just the signal reflects twice (target-earth)...

#3738320 - 02/19/13 09:32 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Wolfhound Offline
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I just managed to kill the simulated F-117 at the Asuluk range. It seems that the best technique is to fire missiles with T/T guidance and the radio fuse switched OFF. I think the target being stealthy makes it very difficult for the radio fuse to detect it. Also because it is not possible to track the F-117 until its quite close, very often its just out of parameters when missiles are launched. T/T guided missiles appear to handle lock-on after launch much better than the other two guidance methods. 'K' and 'YNP' tend to go off track and not guide correctly if launched under similar circumstances.


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3740890 - 02/24/13 12:55 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Wolfhound]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
I just managed to kill the simulated F-117 at the Asuluk range. It seems that the best technique is to fire missiles with T/T guidance and the radio fuse switched OFF. I think the target being stealthy makes it very difficult for the radio fuse to detect it.


In real life, T/T method was used.
Be aware of the radar equation...

... at the close ranges of the radio proxy, Stealth does not count.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3787454 - 05/25/13 09:03 AM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Mdore Offline
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Just been reading through declassified CIA documents about the A-12 ( CIA version of the SR-71 ).

http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/89801/DOC_0001471735.pdf

Read section 3.d

Hit! biggrin

#3794305 - 06/10/13 01:34 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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guys, what is big different between sa-2F and sa-2E proximity fuse ?
witch one has high accuaracy than other?

Last edited by farokh; 06/10/13 01:36 PM.
#3794350 - 06/10/13 02:54 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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I-RAN
new tactic found !
with this rule you can run from harm attack ! easily !

like below result !

Click to reveal..
22:06pm 30th of April, 1999.
Operation Allied Force, B-2A raid on Belgrade

Targets:
Nat'l MOD HQ
FRY MUP HQ
MOD HQ South
Serb MUP HQ
Army HQ Facility A

Supporting force:
F-15C Eagle CAP
F-16CJ Falcon SEAD
EA-6B Prowler ECM
RQ-1 Predator UAV


3/250 rd PVO, Petrovcic ( 83m)
SA-75M Dvina


+++++++++++++++++
00:02:41, SNR ON AIR


00:02:45, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


+++++++++++++++++
00:03:41, SNR ON AIR


00:03:42, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


00:03:48, V-750VMVK 11DMVK Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 30km
Target azimuth: 17
Target elevation: 14
Target altitude: 7.3km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


+++++++++++++++++
00:04:03, SNR ON AIR


00:04:05, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


+++++++++++++++++
00:04:11, SNR ON AIR


00:04:13, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


+++++++++++++++++
00:04:15, SNR ON AIR


00:04:25, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-16CJ Falcon SEAD Number-2 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 47m)

00:04:29, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


+++++++++++++++++
00:04:39, SNR ON AIR


00:04:43, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


00:04:48, V-750VMVK 11DMVK Missile launched on Channel-3
Target distance: 30km
Target azimuth: 286
Target elevation: 26
Target altitude: 13.5km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


00:04:54, V-750VMVK 11DMVK Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 30km
Target azimuth: 289
Target elevation: 27
Target altitude: 13.9km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


+++++++++++++++++
00:05:05, SNR ON AIR


00:05:08, F-16CJ Falcon SEAD Number-1 launched AGM-88 HARM missile No. 1


00:05:23, Missile exploded on Channel-3
F-15C Eagle CAP number-1 hit by SAM. (miss distance: 208m)
00:05:24, F-117A Stealth bombed Batajnica Hangar, with LGB.

00:05:28, Missile exploded on Channel-2
F-15C Eagle CAP number-1 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 45m)

00:05:31, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


Total, SNR On Air Time: 56sec



3aar
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xzme1t

PS: i dont know why i cant use this tactic with volhov ! confused

Last edited by farokh; 06/10/13 02:57 PM.
#3794496 - 06/10/13 07:39 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: farokh]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: farokh
new tactic found !


Please, check last 10 Milo's AAR's in the relevant topic... biggrin

#3806793 - 07/09/13 08:56 AM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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I-RAN
chines sa-2 dvina with modern guage rolleyes




digital panels jawdrop

#3806874 - 07/09/13 01:09 PM Re: SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F Guideline) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Mdore Offline
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Really great find! Thanks for the upload! I've been interested in the Chinese SA-2, the HQ-2, but there are very few photos and little good information.

I started a thread a few weeks ago here http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3789199/Chinese_HQ_1_2#Post3789199

Maybe one day we'll get lucky and an ex-chinese SAM operator will find this forum and will give Hpasp enough information and photos to put the HQ-1 or HQ-2 into SAM Simulator.

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