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#379280 - 03/02/01 05:53 PM 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  
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"Although the V2.5 upgrade will be available for purchase with the boxed Flanker 2.0, we have every intention of making the upgrade available as a free download. The free download will not be made available until shortly after the Flanker 2.5/Flanker 2.0 bundle is on store shelves in late March. Thank you for your patience."

AFTER it's on the shelves????


What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:

"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson

"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman

NEVER ENGAGE STUPID.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#379281 - 03/02/01 06:39 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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SSI need space to sell it to newbies, like the pause between movie releases and DVD/video launches I guess. I say good luck, let them earn some money - I'm still happy flying 2.03a and can wait.

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Push Victor 11, go..

#379282 - 03/02/01 08:08 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Personally i think this decision sucks big time !!

I get really annoyed when things in general are hyped and then not delivered on time !

Its like the Typhoon - Rage debacle - personlly i wish developers would just shut the f*** up about stuff , until such time as stuff is actually released to shops for purchase or download !

My opinion !!, the flip side of all this hype and disapointment is just this - disappointment !

I dunno about you guys but i think about sims most of the day - i was really looking forward to downloading the patch real soon - despite whatever positive stuff is said after my comments about the developer - yadda yadda yadda - i am still annoyed !

Careless talk costs lives , careless hype causes anger , frustration and disappointment !

Enough said

Troff :-0 :-(

Troffmeister's Simulation Zone
http://www.daviesr.freeserve.co.uk

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#379283 - 03/02/01 08:19 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  
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Well said. And Carl just doesn't get it. If they would have never told us it would be availible for free at the end of this month then no one would care. Heck we'd all be happy campers. But that is NOT what they did. Very bad public relations! There are a lot of angry Flanker fans out there, just go to the O'Club.

Louie 'Zeke'

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#379284 - 03/02/01 09:18 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Troffmeister:
[...]Its like the Typhoon - Rage debacle - personlly i wish developers would just shut the f*** up about stuff , until such time as stuff is actually released to shops for purchase or download !
[...]
Enough said

Troff :-0 :-(

Troffmeister's Simulation Zone
http://www.daviesr.freeserve.co.uk

Roger@Daviesr.freeserve.co.uk
Icq 58124596



You're absolutely right. unfortunately, this is probably a sales decision (and I personally dislike sales departments at companies 'cause they promise a lot but usually don't bother to check if it is at all possible.

If you promise not to tell I must say though that I think it's very admirable that Matt and Carl at least take the time to answer a lot of the questions and remarks posted.

"Have strength, brothers and sisters!"

Gert


There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
#379285 - 03/02/01 09:35 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Come on guys...this was supposed to cost us another $30-$40...give Carl and Matt a break...they love sims and have supported FLanker 2.0 well. They got to pay salaries too...even sim developers gotta eat. What a month.

2.5 will be available free...now who else in the industry would do that?



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dogfight.com

#379286 - 03/02/01 09:53 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Matt Wagner's statement at the F2 Forum

"Get a grip guys.

One of the stipulations of the deal with EB is that we hold off on releasing the free download until after they get the 2.5 CDs in the stores--makes sense from their end.

I understand your frustration in waiting for 2.5. When I had previously said that I expected it to be available by late February, that was before EB approached us. I apologize for that but stuff happens, particularly in the software biz. Getting 2.0/2.5 back on store shelves is a great opportunity. It not only allows another means to acquire 2.5, but it also allows new users to finally find a copy of 2.0 and join the fold. Additionally, we have a means to recoup at least some of our investment in the project. Werent you guys offering to send us money just a bit ago?

Have some patience and chill out for heavens sake."

And from Carl:

"Have a little faith in us, we know what we are doing. I'll give you a hint: We're making some strategic moves for this product line that have the potential to pay off for the long run. Try and look at it that way instead of adopting the 'give it to me now' attitude. "

Some reactions:

"As the person in SSI who launched the original Flanker series, I have an ongoing personal and emotional interest in seeing that the series continues, as it evolves into Lock On.
Please back off on giving SSI a hard time on the EB deal, even though it delays the 2.5 release for you all.
From a commercial point of view, I think it is a very smart move, as it will give shelf space to Flanker, and create a new generation of users, and new enthusiasts for the next generation."

"Don't let these guys razz you like this. They should be kissing your butt for giving 2.5 away like you are. Maybe you should just cancel it, now that would give them something to bitch about."


"Thanks Matt for updating us on this matter. Do not let the ones who know nothing of running a business and making it profitable ruin your good graces here. I appreciate the free upgrade and will quietly wait on its release. Thanks to the team there!"

"If it means that SSI will be able to further penetrate the market and make some money back on their invested time in the 2.5 upgrade then the month delay is well worth it."

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dogfight.com

[This message has been edited by ral (edited March 02, 2001).]

#379287 - 03/02/01 11:12 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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One more opinion..........


1. Here is an oppotunity to get a few more copies out the door for flanker2. ...good for them!
**************************************************************************************
2. Remind people about this sim for the future upgrade.
*****************************************************************
3. SSI makes a bit more money..... suits are happy. This can only contribute to the life of LOCK ON!.
*****************************************************************************************************************
4. Users still get a free upgrade.
**************************************
5. You can get the entire package for $20.00 and skip the DL
***********************************************************************

What is the downside??

You have to wait 30 days..to get the upgrade for Free..............

Get a grip.........you've got something to look forward to next month when things are slow.

(I understand the dissapointment,[believe me] but everyone ends up on the good side and impatients gets overruled).

Jim




[This message has been edited by jimvictor46 (edited March 02, 2001).]

#379288 - 03/02/01 11:15 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  
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What I don't understand is why they're waiting till the CD is released before releasing the patch to the public?

It's not like releasing the patch before would hinder sales, since only people with the game can use it.


#379289 - 03/02/01 11:25 PM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  
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Quote:
Originally posted by jimvictor46:
One more opinion..........


What is the downside??

You have to wait 30 days..to get the upgrade for Free..............



30 days!!! Ha! Look, they are selling the upgrade now. Do you believe that it's bug free? Are they going to continue to debug it or are they going to continue to issue patches? Because they are selling it, it's a whole new ballgame. They should have left well enough alone. With the free upgrade they could have orphaned it as planned and shined the complaints. Now...??

My advice: Take "the end of March" with a very large grain of salt. Take "soon after it hits the shelves" with a very large grain of salt. Bettter yet forget the salt, forget the whole thing. SSI customer service strikes (out) again.

#379290 - 03/03/01 12:07 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Well i think i expressed my anger , well enough above , and i am not out to piss off SSI , Matt , Carl etc , coz i love Flanker 2 ! :-)

Infact i am off to fly the other planes in f2 soon via the hack !

My point is though , its like being a kid at Christmas , you know your parents have hidden your presents wrapped up , and they are in the attic , you know this but your parents rightly make you wait for Christmas day!

But low and behold on Christmas eve your parents tell you , Christmas is cancelled , santa has been assassinated - the reindeers have foot and mouth disease , and you might get your Christmas pressies at easter if ya lucky along with some chocolate and the easter bunny - assuming Electronics Boutique don't come along in the meantime with a squad from Delta Force / SAS and hold them to ransom !

Now do you understand my anger and disapointment , we have been waiting patiently , and we have been opening up the windows to our advent calenders and eating the choccy - in anticipation of the 2.5 patch which should have been due now !!!

Grrrrrrr i am madder than a march hair ! hee hee !
GRRRRR GRRRRR GRRRR GRRRRR

Troff :-0

#379291 - 03/03/01 12:22 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Quote:
Originally posted by vonManstein:
What I don't understand is why they're waiting till the CD is released before releasing the patch to the public?


Reading the post above, it seems EB have insisted upon it as a condition of their distributing the 2.5 CD pack.

Back to flying 2.03 for me... I'm disappointed, but if this deal gets more cash money to the development team, it'll be worth it.

#379292 - 03/03/01 01:12 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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You guys know this is a game right?

Come to grips with reality please.

You are getting something that took a lot of time and effort for free when it's available... what more do you need?

Zeke, I'm suprised to see you so upset. What's the problem? After this reaction I seriously doubt the community will be given any timelines whatsoever in the future, including details on features until they are set in stone.

You guys ultimately hurt yourselves and the rest of us with this kind of childish attitude.

Stinger

#379293 - 03/03/01 01:57 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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I've never seen such poor attitudes and unrealistic expectations.

Stinger is correct about our being very guarded with dates from this point on. But now we will be denying other users who are understanding by not giving them information that they realize is subject to change.

I'm not emotional about this because I don't take any of my business life personally, but I will say that I am very disappointed.

Louie, your suggestion that we never give out information would be a real popular move with the guys at the O'Club, I'm sure. Maybe we should just get rid of our website so that we don't give anyone the wrong idea and we'd never have to worry about changes or taking the opportunities that present themselves to us.

Troff, what hype? We posted an annoucement that we were going to give the upgrade away for free to users that already own Flanker 2.0. That's still going to happen. Show me the hype! You actually want publishers and developers to never share information about products? Really, like no screenshots?

Do any of you really believe it would be better for us to just work on the product and never mention anything? I'm sure you guys must be well suited for whatever occupation you are involved in, but I'm glad you are not calling the shots for software development, PR, and Marketing where I work.

Respectfully,
Carl



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited March 02, 2001).]

#379294 - 03/03/01 03:10 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Last comment on this matter...its not like we bought a buggy sim that needs to ne patched...Flanker 2.0 works fine (and thats from a Voodoo 3 user). This is an upgrade. We were supposed to pay for it.

When SSI/Carl/Matt found out that they had lost their online distribution...they said, if we can't sell it than lets give it away for free. They shouldhave been able to sell it and make some money out of it (God knows that it will not be enough to compensate for the efforts). Now they have a chance to make a little (definetly less) money from their efforts. EB wants a little head start thats all. I am sure EB would prefer if SSI never gave the patch free and Carl and Matt said that they could not do that anymore as they made a promise they intended to keep.

Karl and Matt love sims and are dedicated sim to their products. If we had been delaing with suits they would have cancelled 2.5 as soon as they realized they could not sell it. They will give it to use for free...it will cost them to allow us to download. Were lucky it was Carl, Matt and the SSI team who we were dealing with here.

Cut them some slack guys. They Patched Flanker 2.0 until it was finished (kind of unique these days). They decided to give 2.5 away rather than kill it.

Lets just say...I am dissapointed because I was looking forward to it so much...but its just a month or so.. AND THANKS FOR THE FREEBIE.

I am now off to fly my bug free 2.03a...

------------------
dogfight.com

#379295 - 03/03/01 03:28 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Jesus Carl , so we your customers the people who purchased f2 , and would have purchased 2.5 - if it wasn't free are not allowed to feel pissed and disappointed because we have to wait another month !!!

Flip me !!!!

If you really feel that way - its a shame any of us gave you our cash and showed any interest in f2 in the first place ?

I have worked in the games industry , and my comments were also directed at pc games development in general - eg re typhoon , duke nuken forever / whenever / alien 4 pc / blade severance of darkness 4 years development etc - ridiculous !

As for screenshots - not sure how to take that other than to say - i don't carry yours or anyone elses screenshots - i take my own from my own purchased copy - i don't get any freebies from you or anyone else - i am independant - i can say what i want , display what i want - i choose to have a flanker 2 gallery at my site , because i like f2 - and as a customer and an end user -i have the democratic right to express my opinion .

Regardless of how good or free 2.5 will be in hindsight maybe you should have kept the details of the release date a secret until it was ready to be released to avoid all our disappointments and frustrations , then you would not be here acting like some kind of head master telling us all of , for expressing our disappointment !

Anyway to end on a civil note -

Flanker 2 is still a good product , which i enjoy despite my disappointment - roll on 2.5 release soon please !

Troff

#379296 - 03/03/01 03:47 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Troff,

Let's just agree to disagree, ok? I think being "pissed off" is a bit strong for this situation. I objected to your suggestion that we should just "shut the **** up."

The screenshot reference was just to show you that I know who you are and what you specialize in. No malice intended.

My positive note: I've always enjoyed your site.

Let's move on.

Carl

#379297 - 03/03/01 04:09 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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I can't believe anyone is angry about this release schedule!

First of all, I think we should be glad they are giving those of us who have Flanker 2.0 a FREE 2.5 download. From what I've seen, it's more than a patch. They could have easily marketed it as Flanker 3.0 for $40 and said forget about everyone who bought 2.0. Does anyone remember Fly2K? That was billed as a sequel and was essentially a patched version of Fly! with some of the more popular user add-ons included.

Secondly and more importantly, we should be happy about anything that may add to our numbers. If 2.5 was a free download only, it would not attract as many new customers as a shiny new flight sim appearing on the shelves this year. This way, we can benefit from the new upgrade while SSI picks up a few bucks and a few new sim fans for their trouble.

We don't want our hobby to be an exclusive one- if companies can't make money from flight sims, we will see less and less of them.

Good Hunting.

#379298 - 03/03/01 04:37 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  

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Ok Carl , regards to you , agreed lets move on

Roll on 2.5 so we can all be happy bunnies , and i look forward to lock on !

- and if i must and to Typhoon as well - just hurry up Rage !

Lol



Troff

#379299 - 03/03/01 05:04 AM Re: 2.5 on shelves before being downloadable?  
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Stinger wrote:

"Zeke, I'm suprised to see you so upset. What's the problem? After this reaction I seriously doubt the community will be given any timelines whatsoever in the future, including details on features until they are set in stone"

GOOD! Don't tell people one thing and then do another. Gosh, that is simple. If you tell people one thing and then do a 180 on them a month later, you are going to make people angry. That's a fact! We lost a good guy in our squad because of this, and whether you think he's right or wrong doesn't matter, because he is a customer and you know what they say about that. Whether Carl believes it or not, public relations is very important. Losing one person becuase they feel they were lied too is one person to many in my opinion.

Carl Wrote:

"Louie, your suggestion that we never give out information would be a real popular move with the guys at the O'Club, I'm sure. Maybe we should just get rid of our website so that we don't give anyone the wrong idea and we'd never have to worry about changes or taking the opportunities that present themselves to us."

Carl, maybe you should just honor your/SSI's word:

"GAME Studios / SSI and The Fighter Collection are pleased to announce the scheduled release of the Flanker 2.5 upgrade. The upgrade to Flanker 2.0 will be provided free of charge. The upgrade will be available initially for download and we hope to distribute it by other means in the weeks to come."

And now:

"Although the V2.5 upgrade will be available for purchase with the boxed Flanker 2.0, we have every intention of making the upgrade available as a free download. The free download will not be made available until shortly after the Flanker 2.5/Flanker 2.0 bundle is on store shelves in late March. Thank you for your patience."

Now as I've said before, if you never released the first statement none of us would be angry. But, YOU DID. How can you read both of the above and then tell us we are wrong to feel the way we do? Please, do us a favor and tell us the truth when you KNOW it is the truth and there will be no problems. I want to see Flanker and Lock On kick ass in the market but when decisions like this are made it leaves others feeling the sim isn't for them and THAT effects me. If the series dies I'll be deeply upset. Please, just do what you say you are going to do, it's that simple. And when you do make a mistake, be humble and don't spin it back on the angry customers, you may not have enough at the end of the day.

Louie 'Zeke'



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