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#3791073 - 06/02/13 11:01 PM What is this?  
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Mace71 Offline
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Anyone know what this is on top of this scope? Looks like a lamp but don't know how practical that would be. It's an Australian soldier on the Korean War. Also, quite a modern-ish looking scope for the early 50's.



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#3791074 - 06/02/13 11:03 PM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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It is an active IR scope on an M1 Carbine. Early night vision device. Used an IR light and and receiver.

Similar to this:

http://www.gunscollecting.com/english/scopes/nsp-2-infrared-sniper-scope/

Look at the last illustration with StG44 :

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/german-infrared-night-vision-devices-infrarot-scheinwerfer.htm

Last edited by oldgrognard; 06/02/13 11:12 PM.

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#3791080 - 06/02/13 11:12 PM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Thanks, interesting that just a few years after WW2 they had moved along so fast. Also, is that a DIY foregrip or were they commonplace then?


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#3791082 - 06/02/13 11:17 PM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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It is more than a vertical grip. It is the control for the IR light.

Here is more on that. Specifically it is a US M1 or M3 scope. If you look around in this link you can see a few examples.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Us+m...e&FORM=IGRE


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#3791113 - 06/03/13 12:35 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Very interesting. Thank you both. I've always liked the M-1 carbine (would like to own one) and mixed with at the time new tech is pretty cool looking. Looks a bit awkward though and as though it would be top heavy.

#3791123 - 06/03/13 01:04 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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I had no idea that they had them during the invasion of Okinawa.

#3791126 - 06/03/13 01:11 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Here is some better info I found on it.


http://ugca.org/07jan/night.htm


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#3791127 - 06/03/13 01:15 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Really interesting that they were that far advanced back then.
Too bad they didn't put up the cash to arm the rest of the troops with that gear.
Would have saved some lives I'm thinking.
But maybe it was a little delicate or too complex at first.

Really interesting that they even had access to that technology back then.
Had no idea.


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#3791129 - 06/03/13 01:21 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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The Germans were using it in The Bulge.


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#3791131 - 06/03/13 01:26 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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In the middle is my HK93 with a Gen 1+ night vision scope. It is Passive (Starlight - amplifies existing light) with an Active IR illuminator if there is no existing light. Big disadvantage of Active is that someone else using Night Vision can see you illuminator just like you were shining a flashlight.




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#3791135 - 06/03/13 01:49 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Originally Posted By: MaceUK33
Thanks, interesting that just a few years after WW2 they had moved along so fast. Also, is that a DIY foregrip or were they commonplace then?


Every picture I've seen of those early Carbines having night scopes on them, have that same vertical grip. I believe they were all modified that way right from the start, and I believe it was entirely due to the top-heavy weight, and INCREASED weight...to actually hold it to observe a target, without it flopping over a bit.

In the days of the early 1930's Tommy Guns, they seemed to have the forward grips to help control muzzle rise, just as they had a Cutts Compensator on the muzzles...and it works, got to try a full auto one in Las Vegas years ago! Still climbs though, just less than it might otherwise. The military Thompson SMG's had both those features removed: no cutts compensator, no vertical grip, never issued drum mags either AFAIK, and I think there was some stamped parts to reduce the time/cost to manufacture the military version.

In the last number of years, it's become fashionable to include vertical grips on M-4 carbines, and I think this has more to do with simply indexing for a consistent hold, and as use as a "hand stop". But in limited useage it helps with muzzle climb in full auto too. It's just that militaries have reverted away from actually using our rifles on full auto, it's FAR LESS common today than it was in the 1960's, 70's and even 80's IMO.


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#3791137 - 06/03/13 01:51 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Rick, it is the control switch for the illuminator; that is why it's there. To turn the IR light (illuminator) on and off. Done so that the non-firing hand had an easy way to actuate a switch.


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#3791171 - 06/03/13 02:32 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Quote:
Big disadvantage of Active is that someone else using Night Vision can see you illuminator just like you were shining a flashlight.


Yep, it's why we never used the IR periscope and headlights on our M577 tracks. You might as well have driven with service drive on.


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#3791178 - 06/03/13 02:40 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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I've always wondered if they can't use, albeit perhaps limited, form of night vision on those deep submersible dives they make for research. Can't they send out an IR signal to create a source that they can then operate some sort of night vision off of to be able to see more that deep in the ocean?

#3791191 - 06/03/13 02:59 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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If I'm right, IR is even less energetic than visible light, so it won't penetrate as far as visible light does.


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#3791197 - 06/03/13 03:40 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Could the sub launch multiple light sources out for the night vision to pick up on and use?

#3791204 - 06/03/13 04:14 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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I don't see why not, but for a given amount of power the IR would be absorbed at a shorter distance than visible light would. Let's say visible light sources provided usable light at a max range of 100'. IR of the same power would only be usable from perhaps 90'. Or to use my earlier example, let's say both the service drive and IR headlights on the M577 track were 55W. The IR lights won't illuminate as far ahead of the track as the service drive ones would.

Last edited by NH2112; 06/03/13 04:16 AM.

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#3791223 - 06/03/13 05:24 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Murphy]  
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Originally Posted By: Murphy
Really interesting that they were that far advanced back then.
Too bad they didn't put up the cash to arm the rest of the troops with that gear.
Would have saved some lives I'm thinking.
But maybe it was a little delicate or too complex at first.

Really interesting that they even had access to that technology back then.
Had no idea.


From a Grunt's perspective, along with the battery pack, it looks bloomin heavy to be lugging around along with the rest of your kit and I can pretty much guaranty that it doesn't work as well as advertised or when you want or, more importantly, need it. It would not surprise me in the least if it was copied and based on something the Germans had developed during the war, they certainly went to a lot of trouble developing anti-IR paint for their subs, falsely believing the Brit's had developed the vision technology to spot them.

#3791237 - 06/03/13 07:19 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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Not only were those things heavy, it also made handling the rifle a balancing act. It simply is top-heavy in that configuration, which then tends to tip over to the left or right. Still having one of these per squad was better back then than having none of it. I think the main purpose was to verify that what you heard was just an animal, or actually someone sneaking up on you in the dark. I guess it helped to reduce those cases where someone would shoot into the dark ... just because.


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#3791245 - 06/03/13 08:06 AM Re: What is this? [Re: Mace71]  
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