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#378953 - 02/16/01 05:08 PM Lock on: Modern air combat  
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i am SOOOO glad there's no ! in the new title... *shudder*


What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:

"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson

"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman

NEVER ENGAGE STUPID.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#378954 - 02/19/01 09:00 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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I shouldn't really say anything but that has to be the stupidest name I have ever heard for a game.

FLANKER x.x Now that said it all.

They shoud have at least had Flanker in it somewhere, I mean that's its lineage.

Lockon: Flanker 3.0 or something like that would have been much better IMHO.

But they never listen to me



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#378955 - 02/19/01 09:06 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Whatever Tom...

Although Lock On WILL have the content to please the "hardcore" flight crowd, it will be more heavily marketed to the casual, broad-market consumer. We must increase its market appeal if this line of sims is to continue. I believe our title will help do just that. I'm afraid that using a title that some would consider "serious" turns off many more potential consumers than it would attract. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where we'll never be able to please everyone.

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Matt Wagner
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SSI/GAME Studios
The Learning Company


Matt Wagner
Producer, TFC/Eagle Dynamics
#378956 - 02/19/01 09:19 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Check out this link:
http://www.modelair.co.nz/~rc45wsb/books.htm
Verlinden Products thought it sounded good too.
Grem

#378957 - 02/19/01 09:49 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Come on guys, let's not start nit picking about small things like the title. They could call it "Barbie Does the Crimea" for all any of us should care. The feature set is what's important and from what I've seen of it so far, it looks very promising.

#378958 - 02/19/01 10:00 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Would probably be easier to smuggle yet another flightsim past my wife if it was called "Barbie does the Crimea"
Have a stack of flightsims nearly 2 meters high in my study. This is one flightsim junkie in need of therapy.But I'll buy this one too when it is published.
Grem

#378959 - 02/19/01 10:30 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judge:
They could call it "Barbie Does the Crimea" for all any of us should care.



Sounds like an East meets West porno movie

#378960 - 02/20/01 12:01 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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I voted for "Snipers of the Sky, Hogs v. Frogs." Oh well.

"Ilyushin"
"Target Korea"
"Lock On": Flyable old school Flankers, Fulcrums, and Frogfoots.

Does life get any better?

#378961 - 02/20/01 01:04 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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"Although Lock On WILL have the content to please the 'hardcore' flight crowd, it will be more heavily marketed to the casual, broad-market consumer."

Actually, the name sounds okay to me. Matt, I was just wondering though. Will Lock On have a setting equivalent to the difficulty level of Flanker 2.0?



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dogfight.com

#378962 - 02/20/01 02:17 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Hi all.

It's a fine name. It's the sort of name that a casual buyer might be excited about. After all, it was a wet-behind-the-ears casual buyer who went out one day, and returned something to the virgin megastore in Dublin, and picked up a nice little game called "Advanced Tactical fighters," which is also a sort of mild, neutral name.

And i bought it, and now i am a gibbering addict. A gibbering addict, who buys almost every fast jet sim out there.

So, in other words, I approve.

However, i have on caveat. The hardcore crowd have got to, got to, be informed that this is indeed Flanker: Attack. They have also to be informed that this will be one hell of a sim.

Gaviin

#378963 - 02/20/01 03:01 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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I also approve of the name, not that it makes any difference!

"Lock On: Modern Air Combat" is (as already stated) a neutral name which doesn't require specialist knowledge other than that the consumer has an interest in fighter jet airplanes ... and who doesn't ? .

It has the same visceral connotation as the movie "Topgun" which is I believe a perennial favourite at the video stores.

It's probably in our interest (as hardcore simmers) to suppress our puritanical sensibilities ( )for a bit and acknowledge that if SSI/ED succeed through this marketing ploy, it will benefit our hobby as well.

I hope it will be good for them, be good for us and most certainly it HAS to be good for the neophyte simmer who is attracted to LOCK ON : Modern Air Combat, but would probably have walked right by Flanker Attack.

Hehe Grem, we should compare titles some day .

Cheers
Teapot

[This message has been edited by Teapot (edited February 19, 2001).]

#378964 - 02/20/01 03:08 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Just noticed all the smileys ... LOL

Soooo .... here's some more for good effect ....

Cheers
Teapot

#378965 - 02/20/01 02:04 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Knew that would get a rise out of someone, didn't think it would be Matt.

Well, since I am still buying it, I guess the name doesn't really matter.

Still wish my title "Hunka Hunka Mig Bashing Funka" would have won.

back to lurk mode.



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#378966 - 02/20/01 02:07 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Is it going to be ssi's version of Janes usaf , albeit with a flight model? No offence, I found usaf fun in an arcade blast type way, but I loved flanker 2.0 for it's all round...I can't think of the word...competence? For me it comes a close second to DI's Tornado in playability terms.
Seeing as your modeling a european hotspot where are the R.A.F and Fleet air arm? surlely our little trampsteamer carrier would have made it to the area, well, possibly, I mean it made it to sierra leone...just......

regards


To..
#378967 - 02/20/01 02:19 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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They can't take our carriers up north of the arctic circle, it freezes the clockwork.he he

[This message has been edited by tony draper (edited February 20, 2001).]

#378968 - 02/20/01 05:28 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:
Knew that would get a rise out of someone, didn't think it would be Matt.

Well, since I am still buying it, I guess the name doesn't really matter.

Still wish my title "Hunka Hunka Mig Bashing Funka" would have won.

back to lurk mode.


So what happen saddest?
Just so you decide to jump in our nice little Flanker 2.0 forum and diss the name of the only serious Combat Jet Sim in development?

But wha the jail is this.

Yuh looking for a Lock Neck to go with that lock jaw you have or what?

I mean with anachronistic views such as yours one should be Locked up..or at least locked out of conversation involving polite criticism.

Perhaps we were just un-locky and you were having a bad day?
What? Is life sort of hitting you in the tumblers?

Go check the Flanker 2.0 official forum and see if you can get a clasp on the situation instead of making peurile picks, as though your sim has no skeletons on it's chain.

*smirk*
*snicker*




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-Gel214th
CO 214th Annihilators

http://www.214th.com/flanker2


-Gel214th
#378969 - 02/20/01 11:15 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Just sittin around trying to figure out what the Ruskies new catchy sales pitch will be...

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...also known as "Get Your Hands Off My Jets" or "Get a Hardon for Lockon!"

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...Die Gorby Die!

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...I've got that Folkker in my sites.

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...This is hardcore, really.

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...The flightsim formally known as Flanker.

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...Be All You Can Be, with Improved ATC!

Do I hear a ROGER from the Techogeek Choir?

#378970 - 02/21/01 02:36 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Gel ... what brand of glue have you been sniffing?

I have NO idea what you're trying to say ... is it good or bad ... or are you joking?

BTW .. Tom is one of the good guys .

Cheers
Teapot

#378971 - 02/21/01 02:39 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Do I hear a ROGER from the Techogeek Choir?


No you don't..what's your point?

Is that the best Catch phrases you could come up with?

If so its a good thing that you're not involved with any form of marketing because, judging from your posting, you decidedly lack the creativity and good sense that such a responsibility demands.

Or were you simply trying to be facetious while venting your spleen in a semi-jocular manner befitting your display of quite limited wit?

As far as I know Lock On: Modern Air Combat will be published by an American company and include several American aircraft, including the venerable A10.

Your mention of 'Russkies' is therefore not cogent to any musings you might have as to the slant that SSI's marketing may take.
You would have done far better to wonder what the Yankees will come up with.

It's nice that you actually fired off some synapses to think of all this though.

Now if you could just manage to get them in some sort of lucid order for your next trick...


heh heh heh.
-Gel

http://www.carigamer.com

Lock On: Modern Air Combat by SSI.
'nuff said.

[This message has been edited by Gel214th (edited February 20, 2001).]


-Gel214th
#378972 - 02/21/01 04:19 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gel214th:
No you don't..what's your point?

Is that the best Catch phrases you could come up with?



If so its a good thing that you're not involved with any form of marketing because, judging from your posting, you decidedly lack the creativity and good sense that such a responsibility demands.



Or were you simply trying to be facetious while venting your spleen in a semi-jocular manner befitting your display of quite limited wit?



As far as I know Lock On: Modern Air Combat will be published by an American company and include several American aircraft, including the venerable A10.



Your mention of 'Russkies' is therefore not cogent to any musings you might have as to the slant that SSI's marketing may take.
You would have done far better to wonder what the Yankees will come up with.



It's nice that you actually fired off some synapses to think of all this though.



Now if you could just manage to get them in some sort of lucid order for your next trick...




heh heh heh.
-Gel



gel@carigamer.com
http://www.carigamer.com

Lock On: Modern Air Combat by SSI.
'nuff said.

[This message has been edited by Gel214th (edited February 20, 2001).]



#378973 - 02/21/01 01:12 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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First off, that quip that I made was a joke. I have probably shouldn't have done it because I knew that someone would be 'offended' by it but I really don't like the name. I think the name should keep itself true to the Flanker roots of the title. I understand the need to cross over into other areas and unfortunatly most people who are nothing more than casual fans of the Genre don't give a whig about flying an Su 27/33 Flanker. Its too bad, its a wonderful airplane but that's the way it is.

The fact that I don't like the name is immaterial but I did want to voice my opinion that I thought the name choice was not very good. I should have phrased that better and for that I apologize.

As for the 'lock' cracks. The Lock on part is fine as far as I'm concerned.

A better Name using the title Flanker would have been IMHO :

Lockon: Flanker x.xx

Flanker: Modern Air Combat

or even:

Lockon: Modern Air Combat: Flanker x.xx

As I said before, I will definately get the game. I have flown Flanker since the first version (it was the third game I bought) and although I suck royally as a jet driver I still enjoy the game. One of the things that kept Flanker 1.0/1.5 on my hard drive was the fact that it wasn't a dumbed down title. I don't think that Lock ON will be dumbed down, I sure hope not.

Now as for the insults flying here. Yes I started it with my little quip but lets please stop this now before it degenerates into an insult fest.

Thanks for defending me Teapot but I should have known better for making that post.



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#378974 - 02/21/01 03:47 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:

Now as for the insults flying here. Yes I started it with my little quip but lets please stop this now before it degenerates into an insult fest.

Thanks for defending me Teapot but I should have known better for making that post.


*grumble*
*mutter*
but it was just getting fun..
*whiiiine*


Anyways..I don't think that the sim will be dumbed down either.

I think that SSI has a great game engine that already models things such as Flight Model and weapons parameters with a very high level of fidelity.

What they're doing (I think ) is using this engine and adapting it to the new aircraft..hence there shouldn't be much dumbing down.

Consider when Falcon series introduced the Mig..it used the same engine basically..just a new plane..and little was 'dumbed down'.

It's the same thing I forsee happening here...SSI is leveraging their existing investment in their game engine.

This is perhaps the holy grail of game development..and especially sim development:
If you can take one engine and modify it to fit several aircraft you could potentially have a cash cow creating new detailed campaigns,Aircraft and Terrain add-ons.

I DO hope they introduce more FUN elements into the game.
I don't enjoy having an accurate simulation of an aircraft..I want a game to fly around and have fun in.

From posts on the offical Flanker 2 forums, however,they do seem to be including several options (slider bars? ) so players can customise the game to their liking,as well as some sort of pilot tracking etc..which is a good thing



Dino:

*sheepish look*
the reason I edited was becaused I typed Lock ON!:Modern Air Combat

*pops a meth*
YABBA DABBAAA DOOOOOOO!

*sneaks off into the psychedelic ether*

-Gel
http://www.carigamer.com


-Gel214th
#378975 - 02/21/01 03:57 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teapot:
Gel ... what brand of glue have you been sniffing?

I have NO idea what you're trying to say ... is it good or bad ... or are you joking?

BTW .. Tom is one of the good guys .

Cheers
Teapot


Elmers

And it was just a series of bad puns, and yes it was meant to be humorous to a point(yeah i failed miserably there ).

Glad to know Tom is actually a good guy..
I, on the other hand,am a neutral agnostic


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#378976 - 02/21/01 06:13 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
A better Name using the title Flanker would have been IMHO :


Flanker 3.0


That´s all.



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#378977 - 02/21/01 07:25 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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The problem with calling it Flanker 3.0 is that amny players will shy away from it.

1: cos its Russian.
2: because Flanker says to simmers: hi fidelity, low graphics.
3: very hard to play and get into.

Remember the rows about the opening movie in these boards when F2 came out?

("I won't buy it because they are shooting down F/A-18s")

This on the other hand is a far better way to go.

Gavin

#378978 - 02/21/01 09:15 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Gavin I am afraid you are right about that. In my upcoming IL2 preview I state my concerns about poor sales because it is about the Russian Front. Although another problem with IL2 will be with sales and distribution (only online but that may change with new ownership of Blue Byte) I think the game may have only a niche problem due to the subject matter. This is too bad, the Russian Front has been neglected for too long.

I can understand why SSI decided to change the name from Flanker x.xx to something a little more appealing to a mass market. I certainly hope that the name that I hate is a game that everyone loves and it reaches and grabs a while new population of gamers. As long as they don't dumb the game down they will draw some people into the game. I am sure the Novalogic Mig 29 fans might actually gravitate to the title. I have no reason to doubt Matt so I have my 45 bucks all ready to buy the next version of the Flanker series when it comes out.



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#378979 - 02/21/01 11:11 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Tom, Rubles....not bucks or dollars....

If this game is successful, it could save the Russian Economy, allowing them to build the next generation fighter.

That in turn would allow for future wars to occur between third world countries who buy those new fighters, in say 5 - 10 years.

The net effect of this will be that eventually the U.S. and it's NATO allies, sans France, will be able to engage their new toys and prove once and for all which is better.

Heck maybe if we are lucky, the Russians will send "advisors" to the country at War. And just maybe they will decide to fly and challenge the Western Capitalist Pigs who are threatening their loyal client state.

Now that is what dreams are made of.... =)

Lockon: Modern Air Combat...feel the power!

#378980 - 02/22/01 12:50 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dino:
If this game is successful, it could save the Russian Economy, allowing them to build the next generation fighter.
Lockon: Modern Air Combat...feel the power!


Now I remember why I responded to you the way I did.

See..I don't think you're really joking around here, which makes your jabs at Russia anything but Humorous.

Frankly the Russian developers are kicking your american asses in terms of flight sim development, as are the Europeans.

Pretty soon if you continue with your outdated and myopic viewpoints and prejudices, you won't have a sim to fly.

Quote:
Gavin I am afraid you are right about that. In my upcoming IL2 preview I state my concerns about poor sales because it is about the Russian Front. I think the game may have only a niche problem due to the subject matter.


That would truly be a sad thing, and a very poor reflection on the prejudices of Americans even in this day and age of global integration.

To me that stance has less to do with patriotism and more to do with bigotry, stupidity,and a false sense of superiority.

I hope IL2 and Lock On kicks ass and they both sell very well.

That will prove that the intolerant views expressed on these and other forums toward flight sims which are developed by and focus on the various wars from the perspective of other countrys, belong to a diminishing minority.

I remember with great sadness when I was surfing the newsgroups and saw some of the reasons why some Americans refused to even try Flanker 2. And all this time I was playing Falcon 4 and JF18 I thought I was just playing a game and having fun. I didn't realise that there were sick people out there attaching more significance to downing a Mig than simply enjoying the act of playing the game.

I say sick because there's something wrong when you can think it is O.K. to shoot down a pixelated aircraft flying the Russian flag, but not O.K. to shoot down the same pixelated F18 from the cockpit of an SU27.

I have no doubts that these games will be shining examples of their Genre and help define it for future titles.

I hope that Lock On shows them doing a fly-by just before they sink the Eisenhower while American sailors play basketball on the deck. *snicker*


So you can all put that in your pipes and smoke it over a backyard barbecue.

-Gel,
A Proud Trini.
"Discipline,Tolerance and Production".
http://www.carigamer.com


-Gel214th
#378981 - 02/22/01 01:26 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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In my opinion, the title is perfect. What they are looking for is to grab the attention of the mass market. Judging from the posts, they already have us flanker fans in the bag. So they need to start bringing in more fans for this sim.
I know its odd that an American won't buy the game because you can shoot down an American aircraft rather than a Russian,but a lot of us have some wierd ideas on ethics. Oh well, they'll miss out on a great sim . As for me, I'm already eagerly awaiting the release date.

#378982 - 02/22/01 02:29 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Gel,

If the Russians are so great, why do they need Matt Wagner or Stormin' Carl Norman? Kind of a contradiction in my opinion.

I guess the Russians need Americans to teach them the Western Capitalist methods of business so they too can experience multiplied fiscal success, which will allow them to buy exspensive vehicles, smoke well made cigars and buy haute coutre clothing for their girl friendski or wifeski at the local boutique or bazar.

Futhermore, for all of America's faults, and they are many, who ya' gonna call when all hell breaks loose? Spain? Don't think so.

I never said I was not going to buy Lockon: Flightsim of Champions. In fact, I own Flanker 2.0. I must admit though, yawn when it comes to environment. Beautiful, yes...devoid of all symblances of life, yes. Do I hear a ROGER from the ATC Choir?

Anyway, keep up the post. They are a hoot to read!

Me thinks thou protest to much though.

#378983 - 02/22/01 02:52 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Well, the Russian developers are doing a fantastic job and aren't asking for the money that some of their American and European counterparts are. Some of this is natural, the cost of living in Russia is less than in the west and some of it is because western Developers have been used to getting a lot of money.

Lets face it, I have talked to enough developers and producers of games and none of them are doing this for the money. If they wanted to make money they would knock out a crappy Command in Conquer RTS clone and rake in the money. Hell, a Quake III mode probably brings in more money that Fa 18 will. I know Tiger Wood's 2K probably tripled what F15 and Fa 18 combined.

This isn't necessarily bad, it means that we have a lot of folks that really want to make these games and that the 'dead' weight or the get rich quick guys leave real quick but it also makes it hard for these guys to make a living. I respect companies like SSI for continuing to support the Flanker series (no matter what the name is-Sorry Matt, I should have held my tongue at that prior crack) in the face of what has been lackluster sales of the series as of recently.

What we evil capitalistic pigs bring to the table is the ability to keep developers in Russia solvent. If they continue to make decent games, they can have my money. That is the essence of Capitalism, make a decent product that people want and you make money. Make garbage or something that the public doesn't want and you fold. It doesn't always work that way, look at Myst, but the theory is still there.

Gel, I think the reason that people won't be interested in a WW2 Russian Front (ok, Great Patriotic War) sim is not because they are patently against the Soviet Union or don't want to fly for the 'Godless Commies'. I think Oleg would probably refuse to even give the game to anyone with those views. Those types of clowns may be the most vocal but IMHO they also are a very small minority.

What keeps folks from getting games like IL2, or FLANKER (or even Battle of Britain) is a relative lack of knowledge about the subject. Most people know something about things like the Battle of Stalingrad and a few may know about battles like Kursk or the siege of Lenigrad but for the most part the average 35 year old guy is very, very ignorant of the Eastern Front. These same guys have never seen a Flanker or a Yak 9 at the local Air Show but they have seen an FA 18 or P-51 and just seeing those things makes you want to fly one.

To the average American, the Great Patriotic War seems distant and it doesn't touch people in the West like it did the people in Russia that fought it. I am sure that people in Russia have the same feelings about the US bombing campaign over Germany in WW2. Most Russians knew about it but can't get too 'into' the idea because they didn't have grandparents, or uncles or fathers that fought and died in that particular part of the war. YOu don't see B-17s and P-38s at most Russian Air Shows but you do see Su 27s and La 5s so you can get excited about a sim that has the plane you just saw in it.

I don't see it as racism or even nationalism. It is more apathy and desire to stick with what is familiar.

Where you might get some sales, is in Germany, where there are people who have direct links to people who fought and died on the Eastern front. I wouldn't be suprised if Germany is the biggest buyer of IL2.

------------------
Tom Cofield
Contributing Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited February 21, 2001).]


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#378984 - 02/22/01 01:14 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:

I don't see it as racism or even nationalism. It is more apathy and desire to stick with what is familiar.



I strongly disagree.
See the response by barney-boy above to see one example of why.

"why do they need Matt Wagner or Stormin' Carl Norman? "

"the Russians need Americans to teach them the Western Capitalist methods of business "

"who ya' gonna call when all hell breaks loose? Spain? "


I have seen it plainly said, and I know you have as well, on the Flightsim newsgroups that "I will not fly this plane, because I can't get into shooting down american aircraft" or
"I can't fly for the Russians".

Those sentiments are out there, and it has nothing to do with not knowing about one war or the other.

The majority of flight simmers don't know about any of these wars either, so what's the real reason they won't fly the aircraft/play the game?

Comes back to my original post.

And I stand by my original statement that I find such sentiment alarming when it relates to a computer game.

I can't relate to such a case of narrowmindedness,a misplaced sense of superiority, and a false perhaps inbred sense of bigotry that is carefully hidden under the guise of "Nationalism".

As for you Dino..*shrug*..you just got Locked off.

ciao.

-Gél214th
http://www.carigamer.com
http://www.214th.com/flanker2


-Gel214th
#378985 - 02/22/01 06:05 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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I'm curious about how they plan to make an avionics model that will work with both the Russian and American aircraft. With flanker2, there are very few things you need to play around with when it comes to your radar modes, nav, weapons, etc...While in F/18 and F/15 I have several MFDs to play around with as well as the ability to set programs up for your weapons, auto pilot, EW, etc...
I have always been a fan of the flanker2 flight model and a fan of F/18s avionics. This game should prove to be interesting .

P.S. I'm looking forward to playing with warthog and the frogfoot with the beautiful flight model of F2.

#378986 - 02/22/01 09:21 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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I'm not saying that there aren't people in the US that would refuse to fly a Russian plane, I am sure there are.

At the same time, I am sure that there are Russians who would refuse to fly and F-15 against the Russian Aircraft. The nationalistic feelings can go both ways and I am sure it has.

"I can't relate to such a case of narrowmindedness,a misplaced sense of superiority, and a false perhaps inbred sense of bigotry that is carefully hidden under the guise of "Nationalism"."

Well, there is plenty of that in all countries, including Russia. Look at the skinhead movement and the past pogroms against non ethnic Russians. I'm not saying you personally are a nationalist but the same things that make you proud to be Russian make most Americans proud to be Americans. Nationalism has gotten a bad rap, really. When you swell with pride as your national anthem is being played, well that's nationalism. Stalin used nationalism to drive the German's out, if the 'Mother Russia cry' (funny coming from a Georgian) hadn't been used to its propaganda best, then maybe the Russians would have folded under the Wehrmacht. Nationalism is used for both good and bad.

You stated earlier a statement about how Russian Developers are kicking American's butts. Well, I hate to say it but that is very close to a 'Nationalistic' statement. You may not agree with my assessment but there are people who would interpret it that way.

I'm glad that good programs are coming out of Russia. In all honesty, as a consumer, I don't care if they come from Russia, Japan, or the moon as long as they give me what I desire as far as gameplay is concerned. If someone doesn't buy a game because it was made by 'some Russian' then the hell with him.

I am not talking about those people. While its unfortunate that people in all countries hold these kinds of 'anti foreigner' views, it is a reality. I still think that you are talking about a relatively small minority. I know a lot of casual simulation owners (those that fly Mig 29/F-16 or USAF/ or CFSII) that have never bought Flanker just because they think the game is too complicated. At the same time, it is only recently that these guys have been exposed to Russian Aircraft, and most of this has been on the Discovery Channel.

Don't think it is racism or nationalism that hurts sales of Russian titles or Russian subject matter in Western countries. There may be some of that, there probably is, but that in no way is the main reason that people don't buy the games. If that was the case, then no name change would create sales of Lock On once the nationalist Americans found out who created the game.


"The majority of flight simmers don't know about any of these wars either, so what's the real reason they won't fly the aircraft/play the game?"

They won't play the game because it doens't interest them. I don't play space sims because they don't interest me. No matter how good the game is, I cannot let my imagine take me into a space sim. To a guy that has no clue as to what happened in 1941-45 on the Eastern Front, it is like a space sim. Some will be curious and maybe try it out, but most will stick with something that they find comfortable. Americans are good at this. That is why CFSII, which is probably going to be inferior to IL2 will sell more copies. It is comfortable (and marketed by Microsoft, don't forget that).

This is an interesting thread. It is amazing to discuss these things in a rational manner. We all should realize that the Cold War has really only ended about 10 years ago. All the feelings and all the mistrust over the previous two generations (not counting ours) will not go away in a few short years. Dialogue, and not confrontationalism, will make the hatred diminish.

Thomas S. Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited February 22, 2001).]


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#378987 - 02/22/01 09:42 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Gel,

Can't we all just get along? Why are you injecting racism into this? It is nothing of the sorts.

It's a game for crying out loud! Some people like to fly Western built planes, others like to fly Russian built planes. Does that make them a racist?

You need to step back for a few days and rethink your positions. You are starting to look rather foolish flaming the wind with your insecurities of a hate retoric conspiracy existing within the sim community.

If I or anyone else have issues with the country formally known as the USSR, it's not because of the race. The last time I checked, the former USSR was a melting pot of different races living in Russia, Ukraine and all the other satellite countries of the old Soviet regiem.

I do have some political differences with the country regarding some issues and causes they support, but overall, since 1991-1992 the country has improved. Let's hope it continues. =)

If you want to talk racism, all countries are guilty including the USSR and the current Russia. The USSR killed over 20,000,000 of it's own people, mainly Jews, between WWII and the present day. I may be confused, but that number seems higher than the genocide Hitler inflicted upon the Pols, Jews and Slavs during all of WWII.

In any case, I don't want this to be a political discussion or one about race. We should be talking about Flight Sims!! The almighty uniter of people everywhere.

Take care Gel.

#378988 - 02/23/01 12:19 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by CoryRG:
I have always been a fan of the flanker2 flight model and a fan of F/18s avionics. This game should prove to be interesting .


Good points Cory - I have to say, that's one of the things I'm looking forward to in Lock On. If you've been over to the Flanker2 forum, matt's made a couple of posts stating that the intention (note, it's not coded yet, and stuff does change between design & implementation) is to model the F-15 avionics etc with a high degree of fidelity. Of course, the other thing I'm looking forward to is...
Quote:

P.S. I'm looking forward to playing with warthog and the frogfoot with the beautiful flight model of F2.

Damn straight! I don't know any sim that flies as nicely as F2 - one of the few sims I have where just going up to fly around doing aerobatics is fun enough...


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

#378989 - 02/23/01 03:45 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dino:
Gel,

Can't we all just get along? Why are you injecting racism into this? It is nothing of the sorts.

It's a game for crying out loud! Some people like to fly Western built planes, others like to fly Russian built planes. Does that make them a racist?


Come come..where did I inject Racism?

It was your own silly little quips and prods which started this whole thing off, as I stated in my previous post. I also quoted rather unflattering statements made by yourself toward the Russian developers of the sim in question, Flanker 2, which you attmepted to use to bolster your point that the Russians need American capitalists in order to save their poor suffering selves.

Did someone else write that,Dino? Because unless you went back and edited your text it seems that's exactly what you said.

So I'm not injecting anything, I'm responding to it.

And I think you're being quite sarcastic once more.

Tom:
The Russian developers kicking american developer's butts in the Combat flight sim world at the moment, is a fact..but it was phrased in that particular way to rebutt the aspersions raised by Dino

CFSII was a best selling flight sim because it was a great game. Period.

I don't care where the game took place, what planes were available to be flown,or how realistic the flight model is..CFSII is a TOP GAME.

It seems to have everything the average joe could want in a flight sim. And we all know there's no pleasing the anal-hardcore group,so the average joe is who you have to aim for and give him the room to grow to a higher level of fidelity in the game

CFSII pulls you into the entire atmosphere of those old WWII planes, with the missions, cutscenes, pilot history..the wild extensibility of the game with new planes available, new flight models..I mean it is just a great game..and whether one hates M$ or the fact that CFSII's flight Models may not be all there, you have to look at what Microsoft has produced, and why it was successful.

Even factoring in the amazing marketing might of M$: They weren't marketing vapour..they were marketing something with substance.

Now, let's turn this around to if CFSII focussed on Russian aircraft.

Same game, same features..you're saying that it would not have been as popular because people don't know the background behind the game.

I think your space sim analogy goes a bit too far, we're not talking chalk and cheese here.

We are instead talking about racing a Volvo in Germany..vs racing a Ford in Arizona.

I think that a Russian (just for argument's sake) CFSII would not have sold as well simply because it chose to focus on the Russians, and because of this sort of ingrained negativity and stigma that seems to seep to the fore in military circles when dealing with the Iron Curtain.

True, the cold war did end 10 years ago...and perhaps we're worse off for that fact now.
The world, to me, has become far more unstable than it was back then.

But the old prejudices still remain, making it even worse in our new unstable era.

I think that even though the physical forces involved in the cold war have been lifted, the psychological scars still live on in the minds of many Americans.

This is what I'm referring to in my responses when I speak of misguided patriotism/nationalism and the fact that someone could shift some sort of meaning toward blowing up a Russian plane on their monitor.

Because if you stop to think about it..that's exactly what someone who says they can blow up Russian and CHinese aircraft all day, but can't fly a Chinese flight sim, is doing.

They are ascribing qualities to those pixelated images that has a lot of significance to them.
I don't think that's healthy.

If I feel so much about a game, that I can't fight American forces..then I sure as hell would have similar trouble playing that game and fighting and destroying anyone else..because destruction is destruction..death is death.

But with that misguided patriotism, destruction and death are ok because it's not Americans or allies..

see what I'm getting at when i say I find it a disturbing trend of thought in a computer game?

You say that this is a minority..but the flight sim community on the whole is a minority..and those knowledgeable few we look up to in the flight sim circles may themselves perpetuate these prejudices simply because they belong to the Old School.

And thus these same views filter down ad-infinitum to the newcomers.

SSI themselves seem to have realised this..and perhaps it's why they decided to include NATO aircraft in their next game.

Sure, the popularity of the aircraft in question had something to do with it..but was that the only reason?
I don't think so.

I think that in addition to that the reason may be closer to what we've been talking about here.

And if a Combat Flight Sim company factored that thinking into their decision to change the focus of their game because it could affect their bottom line...then the prejudice may not be as much in the minority as we want to believe..eh Tom?


Maybe when I get carigamer.com off the ground a bit more I'll get a chance to interview either Carl or Matt and put the question to them

-Gel
http://www.carigamer.com


-Gel214th
#378990 - 02/23/01 06:20 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Wow. It's amazing that an argument over what we are calling our next flight sim product can turn into accusations of racisim and nationalism.

For the record: We Americans need the support and talent of our Russian colleagues and likewise, they require our talents and support. It's called TEAMWORK and it doesn't have a flag on it.

I've become very good friends with those folks in Moscow and I am pleased to have friends around the world because of Flanker and my work on simulations. I know it is a cliche and a bit corny, but the diversity of our community is a strength and one of the things I enjoy most about the hobby.

There are plenty of better names than "Lock On." We know because we tried to use just about every other name. None, and I mean NONE of them passed our Legal Department as being free to use. We like the Flanker name but realized that the association of the name with being a Russian aircraft only product was not going to help us keep this product line going. We put in some American planes because that was the most requested thing that the community has requested. We'd love to add some European aircraft in the future, but no promises at this time.

It's not just for the general consumer that we are changing the name, the retailers, the marketing folks, and the sales folks need to work with a name that is more encompassing of modern jet combat. Perception at those levels makes a big difference in the success or failure of a retail product.

Lock On was not my first choice, but I accept it and realize the reputation and content of the product will make the grade, not the damn name.

Why don't you guys stop fighting each other and share the glory of modern combat simulation with one another? Our hobby has enough problems without everyone getting into pissing contests over the slightest issue or disagreement.

There - I got that off my chest. Let's play nice.

Cheers,
Carl


------------------
Carl C. Norman
Director of Product Development
Game Studios / SSI
A Division of The Learning Company

"I'm looking for marbles ALL DAY LONG!"
- Ensign Frank Pulver (Jack Lemmon)in the movie MR. ROBERTS



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited February 23, 2001).]

#378991 - 02/23/01 06:33 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Hi Carl.

Can't really say much to amplify this, but there is this.

East West tensions are ramping up again. The usual issues of global influence are being trotted out. The evil Americans are bombing Iraq and the evil Russians are bombing Chechnya.

Wouldn't it be far more healthy if we were blowing the crap out of one another in a nice little game called Lock On, by SSI?

Gavin

#378992 - 02/23/01 06:37 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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BTW-

Its hardly corny to be proud that your work has made you friends.

It's something to be proud of. Moreso, when your work is also worthy.

Gavin

#378993 - 02/23/01 06:51 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Wildstyle24_7,
I would love to post some time at the flanker forum, but for some reason the registration process doesn't like my hotmail address. I visit that forum daily and on some posts I'm just itching to reply .
Anyway, I just have to say once again that the name is of little concern. From the screenshots and the posts from the SSI crew, this game looks like a true addition to the flanker series.

P.S. I just have to say that I'm glad to see the developers devoting time to clear things up and dropping us some info daily. You rarely see this much devotion from a publisher .

#378994 - 02/23/01 11:46 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Actually Carl, I think the debate about Nationaism, while probably not necessarily pertinant to this particular board, it going along quite nicely. Gecko I think is making his point (at least to me) about his fears of Nationalism is a clear and concise point and I hope I am putting out my opinions (forget me stupid comment at the front guys, I was trying to be cute and it backfired-I don't like the name but if I had to rank that on the real level of importance, it would rank right there with box color).

I think the problem over the last 50 years is that the West and the East haven't communicated their worries and complaints. Carl, you were a military man and I am one (Carl was a marine btw for those of you that didn't know it) so you remember when we were trained to take on the same people that we are discussing things with.

These kinds of debates are healthy and IMHO important, maybe even if they aren't quite correct to have here because it allows people of different groups, and different cultures to air their fears and grievences. We have a lot of distrust that we will have to overcome over the next 10 to 15 years. I have gotten to know the developers at 1C productions very well(IL2) and find them to be the most honest and trustworthy individuals I have ever had the honor to meet.

I do agree with Carl in one respect, all debate, even and especially contradictory debate, should be held with politeness and consideration for the other. You may not agree with that other person's opinion but he/she probably doesn't agree with your's either.

I think I'll quit posting on this after this. It isn't about the game and it is just riling people up.



------------------
Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#378995 - 02/23/01 02:57 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by CoryRG:
Wildstyle24_7,
I would love to post some time at the flanker forum, but for some reason the registration process doesn't like my hotmail address.


If you want a webmail spamtrap address to use, the reg process doesn't seem to mind my address domain- sign up at http://www.evilemail.com

Quote:

From the screenshots and the posts from the SSI crew, this game looks like a true addition to the flanker series.


They're aiming very high - if they can achieve what they've set out to do, this sim is going to make everything else look pretty poor... in that context, what it's called seems to be a minor point, doesn't it?
Quote:

P.S. I just have to say that I'm glad to see the developers devoting time to clear things up and dropping us some info daily. You rarely see this much devotion from a publisher .


Yep, surprised me too - clearly they're pretty committed to the project & the community as a whole, good to see.

------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

#378996 - 02/23/01 05:24 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:
Actually Carl, I think the debate about Nationaism, while probably not necessarily pertinant to this particular board, it going along quite nicely. Gecko I think is making his point (at least to me) about his fears of Nationalism is a clear and concise


Who's Gecko?
^_^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl:
Wow. It's amazing that an argument over what we are calling our next flight sim product can turn into accusations of racisim and nationalism.

Yes! Aren't you pleased at the diversity of opinions and thought your game can catalyse! hee hee hee

Its not so much an argument as much it is a ..spirited discussion of an observed phenomeneon in the Flight sim community

We know that at the developer level there is integration and co-operation..but the ugly spectre that was mentioned previosuly does rear its head amongst the more mundane members of the simming community a bit too often as far as I'm concerned

I agree , and didn't expect a viewpoint very far removed from the one you expressed on the matter at all.

It would be great if Modern CFS could unite us, but perhaps by the very militaristic (hell is that a word!? hee hee) premise that it is based on, it could also serve to bring divisions to the fore.

I wonder if there were to be war..would sales of Combat Flight Sims increase depending on the focus of the particular sim?
*sly smile*

Pissing contests are so blasé
But I do enjoy a healthy discussion..

-Gel
http://www.carigamer.com
Island Gaming At It's Best(TM)


-Gel214th
#378997 - 02/24/01 06:25 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Thanks wildstyle I'll give it a shot .

#378998 - 02/24/01 02:19 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Sorry Gel, the wife must be slipping stuff into my coffee again.

I hate it when she does that. I should never have bought that extra life insurance.



------------------
Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#378999 - 02/24/01 05:53 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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I was in the Army too, and so was my husband (posting in the IL-2 mission builder topic under IceWolf).

We were discussing the posts on this topic, and it reminded him of a song (he's talented-plays guitar)-"Christmas in the Trenches," about WWI. One line at the end is "On each end of the rifle we're the same."

Frankly, I treasure the online friendships I've forged with Oleg Maddox and other non-U.S. developers. It seems so often that the problems between us are at the level of governments, where the simple grunts carrying the mail can almost always settle differences with a bottle of schnapps and one-on-one communication. Like Carl and Tom, I too was trained to fight the Pact (I was the battalion training NCO in our MP battalion on Pact techniques and equipment) nations, but today I hold no animosity toward them. In fact, I prefer the Russian virtual aircraft I have flown, particularly the MiG-3. I just wish I could figure out all the instruments on the dashboard; all I recognize are the altimeter and the artificial horizon....

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#379000 - 02/24/01 09:49 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
One line at the end is "On each end of the rifle we're the same."


"If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility" - Longfellow

Great post cat!

Quote:
Like Carl and Tom, I too was trained to fight the Pact (I was the battalion training NCO in our MP battalion on Pact techniques and equipment) nations, but today I hold no animosity toward them.


I find it interesting that that seems to be the case with former combatants - WWII japanese fighter ace Saburo Sakai once said that he considered many of his best friends to be amongst the Americans he'd met after the war. I love this story that Peter Bernard tells on the WWII pilots group page ;

Quote:

Many, many years have passed and until 5 years ago, I had never talked about experiences during World War II. When I came to the first meeting of World War II Pilots, I saw six American pilots making introductions, and talking. One man said that he was a B-26 pilot. I started to leave thinking that coming was a very bad idea. In JV44 we had shot down many of the B-26 Marauders and was afraid that I would not be welcome. As I started to leave, a man (the B-26 pilot) reached out and touched my arm and asked me who I was. For some unknown reason I explained to him who I was. When I finished;, he said something very much like "You nazi bastard!...you shot down all my friends!." Well, I was stunned and humiliated for about 2 seconds before he and all the other pilots started laughing as if they had just told the funniest joke in the world. Realizing they were only having a little fun at my expense; en I said "Yah, you Marauder pilots were easy targets, flying along in a straight line like ducks." Then we all laughed for a long time, shook hands, and slapped each other on the back. We spent the rest of the time at this first lunch telling stories and telling jokes. I felt like I had just met long lost comrades, and everybody has been so good to me ever since, and I have so many new friends now. They even make me sit at the head table. Of course they say it is necessary so they can keep an eye on me. But then, I can of course keep an eye on them!

Peter Bernard, Quoted From this article


I've been fortunate in that I've never been a combatant, but I'm proud of my nation's servicemen, and their achievements. Being an aviation buff, and having been raised on stirring tales of the battles fought by the RAF, I honour their sacrifices on Battle of Britain day and Rememberance Day. I also see no reason why that should leave me blind to the skill of men like Adolf Galland, Hans Marseille, or the excellence of the engineering of Kurt Tank.

And yes, I fly all sides when I play EAW, and I'm hell with wings in the Dora

Patriotism can be a fine thing - it can inspire us to new heights of bravery and achievement - but when it blinds us to the genuine bravery, excellence and achievement of others, that's a terrible shame.

Quote:

In fact, I prefer the Russian virtual aircraft I have flown, particularly the MiG-3. I just wish I could figure out all the instruments on the dashboard; all I recognize are the altimeter and the artificial horizon....

Heh, I find I'm the same - Russian aircraft are so rarely simulated that it's a real pleasure to fly one - when it flies as nicely as the Flanker in Flanker 2, it's bliss indeed! I find that the HUD system suits me better too - the pitch ladder in the virtual Falcon, Hornet, Commanche & Apache just don't click with me at all!

With regard to deciphering the instruments, a little knowledge of the cyrillic alphabet might help (I find it useful flying in Flanker 2). Might be worth looking out a teach yourself Russian book for that, assuming that it wouldn't raise too many eyebrows for you at work, of course!

Regards,


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

Edit: Included URLs for quoted article & WWII pilots group main page.

[This message has been edited by wildstyle24_7 (edited February 24, 2001).]

#379001 - 02/25/01 03:34 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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It is very refreshing to see that this thread has turned positive. I appreciate the good words by Cat, Gel, Tom, and others.

When this community is good, it is very good. When it is bad, it tends to be very bad. Here's hoping for good thoughts.

Best Wishes,
Carl



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited February 25, 2001).]

#379002 - 02/25/01 05:38 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Tom Cofield wrote:
These kinds of debates are healthy and IMHO important


Sorry sir, but I disagree with you on this one. These kinds of debate are not IMHO important. I live in South America and therefore the problems between west and east are not relevant to me. I am here because I like to fly a simulator called Flanker. That’s all. You should understand that since Combatsim becomes a “pay per view” site, the community that is right now visiting your site comes from many different countries around the world. Countries where peoples doesn’t gives a priority importance to these kinds of things. IMHO people of different groups compose the actual “HQ” community; this is easy to see when you read the post. Writers comes from different cultures and different nationalities. Therefore I can’t see how these kinds of debates could be healthy or important for the international community.

Quote:
Dino wrote:
If this game is successful, it could save the Russian Economy, allowing them to build the next generation fighter. That in turn would allow for future wars to occur between third world countries who buy those new fighters, in say 5 - 10 years.


Dear Sir, are you talking seriously? Do you really think that a good simulator could cost the development of a 5th generation fighter? Do you really think that “it could save the Russian Economy”?. I am asking you, because English is not my natural language, so maybe I don`t understand what you are really trying to say. Thanks in advance.

---------------------
Regarding “Lock On”. As far as I know, it’s a joint venture between Russians and Americans to produce a hardcore simulator. It will have Russians and Americans fighters to fly. Could somebody tell me please, what is wrong with that? I use to fly many Americans simulators, why I can’t fly Russian ones? The real problem we are facing here is that nobody is producing combat flight simulators. (With the exception of Ssi/Eagle Dynamics) Therefore, if we don’t support the only one company that is actually developing sims... what sims we will fly in the following years? “Lock on” will be a kick ass simulator. It is in development by a group of Russian and Americans programmers ho understand that a cooperative work can be done with real benefit to both sides. I hope the hardcore community can understand this fact buying the simulator.

Best regards. -

------------------
Edgardo F. Alessio
Visit the ECV 56 Cóndor site!!!

#379003 - 02/25/01 02:17 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Hi Edgardo ,
I must respectfully point out that when people from all over the world can get together and work through some differences, then it is extremely valuable!
If NATO had ever gone to war against the Pact, it would have affected everybody ... to some degree.

I too trained with the understanding that should my country go to war, it would do so as part of a larger force. Every conflict that my country has been involved in since WWII, has been done in conjunction with U.S.A 's participation ... (actually I've probably said that the wrong way around ).

I'm proud to be Australian, I'm proud that I served, and I'm very proud of humanity when people can learn to understand and accept each other a little better through a common love for flying combat simulations.

I hope this doesn't sound ridiculous, but it's a much better scenario than when the shooting really starts.

Respectfully
Teapot.

[This message has been edited by Teapot (edited February 25, 2001).]

#379004 - 02/25/01 04:26 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Yes Carl, when a thread is positive it goes well. Too bad I started it out stupidly.

Edgardo, you have to understand the culture that permeated the US over the almost 75 years that the Soviet Union was in power. We were in a state of almost terror that the Soviet Union and Communism would overrun the World and destroy the 'American Way of Life'.

It was a culture of misunderstanding and mistrust on both sides of the ocean. For almost 45 years the entire US foreign policy of the United States has been a policy of 'containment' of Communism. Originally the fear began in the American Great Depression when leaders thought that Communism would sweep like wildfire through unemployed workers causing the overthrow of the US Government. Similar things almost happened in countries like Germany and Italy and caused the rise of men like Hitler and Mussolini.

After the war, the Cold War was waged, and it became hot at times. Places like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Cambodia, the Bay of Pigs (Cuba) happened because of the constant chess game that went on between Soviet leaders and Western Leaders.

At the same time we (Americans) were taught that the Russians were stupid, cruel, evil people who were out to get us. A lot of people remember the saying Better Red than Dead. Most movies in the US that had Russians in them made them out to be ugly, sneaky, conniving (and fat usually) or big, powerful and evil and above all, not to be trusted.

This is why I think now the discussion is important. It takes years and years to remove the suspicion that peoples have against each other. I can only speak for our side of the ocean but I am sure that many Russians were trained to believe the Americans have exactly the same evil qualities that we applied to them. The best part about groups like this is that people with these preconceived ideas have trouble justifying them to themselves when they meet an articulate, intelligent and thoughtful individual from the country that they once hated.

This may not have 'affected' your country like it did ours directly, but it did indirectly and the end result was a lot of problems. It is up to us, the 20-40 year olds out there to develop friendships where there was once mistrust.

I applaud Carl and Matt in that respect. As buisiness leaders they reached out to a foreign company, on that belonged to the 'evil empire' at one time and have brought a great title to the US. It is hard to call another man stupid when he brings you an intelligent product like that.

As for Dino, he was being funny when he wrote that. But in a way, he could be prophetic. If Russian products can get past that 'these are crap' imprssion that a lot of Westerners have then they can probably make some sales. It happened to Japan and more recently is happening to China and Korea. Give them time, all new 'developing' (and I use that term very loosly with Russian, they are very developed now, just not as savvy about world sales as the West, give them 10 years) it takes time to figure out the appetites of the West.

Dino sounds like he is an example of the mistrust that has occured over the last 75 years. We in America still fear the military might of Russia and a lot of Americans wan't to kick the Bear when it is down. I don't know if Dino is really serious in wanting to do that, I hope not. As a 15 year military man I hope that the war that I fight will never arrive. Any war, at any time, is the result of a failure on someones part. It may be unavoidable, but it is still a failure. Any real military man will tell you that.

------------------
Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited February 25, 2001).]


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#379005 - 02/25/01 09:25 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:

Edgardo, you have to understand the culture that permeated the US over the almost 75 years that the Soviet Union was in power. We were in a state of almost terror that the Soviet Union and Communism would overrun the World and destroy the 'American Way of Life'.


That's funny Tom...

I grew up on Canadian Air Force bases all over this country and in Europe from the early 70's to the late 80's and never saw the same paranoid mentality you describe the American's of having of the former Warsaw Pact alliance.

As for sims and east/west aircraft, I am a fan of aviation, in particular military aviation and I buy and fly these sims for the pure pleasure of flying the different jets and not for the pleasure of flying a NATO aircraft to blow up Russians or a Russian aircraft to blow up Americans. To me this logic is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age and only makes the American posters who support these thoughts look like complete and utter idiots all the while giving their fellow countrymen a bad image.

These are games, they give us the opportunity to fly some amazing machinery be it the Hornet or the Flanker and we should appreciate the huge amount of work that is involved in giving us this opportunity and thank and support the developers, producers, and publishers from both sides of the pond.

We all love aviation so let's get the most out of this hobby we can rather then thinking of it as defying your country because if you don't you will miss out... and if you are sacrificing flying Eagle Dynamics/SSI's Flanker and Fulcrum because of your red white and blue blood then you are missing out on the best flight experience available on a PC!

Cheers

#379006 - 02/26/01 02:45 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Actually Stinger, family and friends of military personnel often do not know or feel what the personnel do themselves.

The fact is military people in most democratic nations are largely despised and maligned by the very people they aim to protect.

The paranoia was/is real. The reasons for the paranoia on the other hand might or might not be there.

Just remember this ... anyone who takes the contract knows that they are willingly laying their lives on the line. It's not a matter that shouldl be shrugged off.

Cheers
Teapot

#379007 - 02/26/01 03:01 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Personally I think SSI is making the right move. There just aren't enough 'hardcores'out there to support development of high end simulators. The name change has broadening appeal, and when a Lock On box is sitting next to an Age of Empires 3, or The Sims 'I don't get the point of this game' with an F-15 or A-10 on the cover, you are almost guaranteed to sell some vs. a box with a jet with a big red star on it.

Yeah, yeah, cold war is over, I can't believe stupid Americans get touchy about that...blah blah. Well, they do. That's just a fact of life. Box art sells games.

Most folks outsides the US know very little of the inner workings of the computer game department at Wal-Mart and CompUSA. That's just the way it. Factor end rednecks and people with WWF T-shirts, and you have some pretty tough customers.

Sims need to change. They need to become fun again. (Not saying Flanker isn't fun of course)

Hardcores also need to lighten up!! Some sims are going to have to be made more casual to increase sales, as TK noted in the Project One forum (btw, thanks for lunch TK )

I look forward to this sim as well, no matter what it's called. As a former USAF'er I cannot wait to slam missiles up the boo hiney of a hapless MiG!!

I say, good call SSI.


Hook'em Horns
#379008 - 02/26/01 04:01 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Hi Teapot,

Actually my Dad was in more danger during his year long UN peacekeeping tour in the Mideast for the Arab Israeli war and during his time in Cyprus then he was when we were based in Lahr Germany.

It's now 2001 and the idea of Russian and Communist world domination is long gone and why people would still hang on to this paranoid belief is beyond me.

The funny thing is is that most of the posters who use this theory of not flying a Russian aircraft are the younger kids and not the adults who know better.

Cheers

#379009 - 02/26/01 05:53 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Carl said..

"When this community is good, it is very good. When it is bad, it tends to be very bad. Here's hoping for good thoughts."

In other words, it is just like any other community populated by humans....

#379010 - 02/26/01 10:33 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Goanna:
Carl said..

"When this community is good, it is very good. When it is bad, it tends to be very bad. Here's hoping for good thoughts."

In other words, it is just like any other community populated by humans....


True, but being a member of this particular community has me hoping for a better environment. Fortunately, there's more good than bad (most of the time.)

Cheers,
Carl

#379011 - 02/26/01 01:23 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Well Carl, I will rarely ever have anything bad to say about SSI. You guys have supported the Wargaming Genre when it became patently unhip to do so.

You also have allowed companies like http://www.matrixgames.com to continue to develop your products after their shelf life has ended. This has brought games like War in Russia and Steel Panthers to a whole new group of people.

I laud your company for this and many other things. It is rare when a company does that.



------------------
Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
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