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#378993 - 02/23/01 06:51 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Wildstyle24_7,
I would love to post some time at the flanker forum, but for some reason the registration process doesn't like my hotmail address. I visit that forum daily and on some posts I'm just itching to reply .
Anyway, I just have to say once again that the name is of little concern. From the screenshots and the posts from the SSI crew, this game looks like a true addition to the flanker series.

P.S. I just have to say that I'm glad to see the developers devoting time to clear things up and dropping us some info daily. You rarely see this much devotion from a publisher .

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#378994 - 02/23/01 11:46 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Actually Carl, I think the debate about Nationaism, while probably not necessarily pertinant to this particular board, it going along quite nicely. Gecko I think is making his point (at least to me) about his fears of Nationalism is a clear and concise point and I hope I am putting out my opinions (forget me stupid comment at the front guys, I was trying to be cute and it backfired-I don't like the name but if I had to rank that on the real level of importance, it would rank right there with box color).

I think the problem over the last 50 years is that the West and the East haven't communicated their worries and complaints. Carl, you were a military man and I am one (Carl was a marine btw for those of you that didn't know it) so you remember when we were trained to take on the same people that we are discussing things with.

These kinds of debates are healthy and IMHO important, maybe even if they aren't quite correct to have here because it allows people of different groups, and different cultures to air their fears and grievences. We have a lot of distrust that we will have to overcome over the next 10 to 15 years. I have gotten to know the developers at 1C productions very well(IL2) and find them to be the most honest and trustworthy individuals I have ever had the honor to meet.

I do agree with Carl in one respect, all debate, even and especially contradictory debate, should be held with politeness and consideration for the other. You may not agree with that other person's opinion but he/she probably doesn't agree with your's either.

I think I'll quit posting on this after this. It isn't about the game and it is just riling people up.



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#378995 - 02/23/01 02:57 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by CoryRG:
Wildstyle24_7,
I would love to post some time at the flanker forum, but for some reason the registration process doesn't like my hotmail address.


If you want a webmail spamtrap address to use, the reg process doesn't seem to mind my address domain- sign up at http://www.evilemail.com

Quote:

From the screenshots and the posts from the SSI crew, this game looks like a true addition to the flanker series.


They're aiming very high - if they can achieve what they've set out to do, this sim is going to make everything else look pretty poor... in that context, what it's called seems to be a minor point, doesn't it?
Quote:

P.S. I just have to say that I'm glad to see the developers devoting time to clear things up and dropping us some info daily. You rarely see this much devotion from a publisher .


Yep, surprised me too - clearly they're pretty committed to the project & the community as a whole, good to see.

------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

#378996 - 02/23/01 05:24 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:
Actually Carl, I think the debate about Nationaism, while probably not necessarily pertinant to this particular board, it going along quite nicely. Gecko I think is making his point (at least to me) about his fears of Nationalism is a clear and concise


Who's Gecko?
^_^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl:
Wow. It's amazing that an argument over what we are calling our next flight sim product can turn into accusations of racisim and nationalism.

Yes! Aren't you pleased at the diversity of opinions and thought your game can catalyse! hee hee hee

Its not so much an argument as much it is a ..spirited discussion of an observed phenomeneon in the Flight sim community

We know that at the developer level there is integration and co-operation..but the ugly spectre that was mentioned previosuly does rear its head amongst the more mundane members of the simming community a bit too often as far as I'm concerned

I agree , and didn't expect a viewpoint very far removed from the one you expressed on the matter at all.

It would be great if Modern CFS could unite us, but perhaps by the very militaristic (hell is that a word!? hee hee) premise that it is based on, it could also serve to bring divisions to the fore.

I wonder if there were to be war..would sales of Combat Flight Sims increase depending on the focus of the particular sim?
*sly smile*

Pissing contests are so blasé
But I do enjoy a healthy discussion..

-Gel
http://www.carigamer.com
Island Gaming At It's Best(TM)


-Gel214th
#378997 - 02/24/01 06:25 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Thanks wildstyle I'll give it a shot .

#378998 - 02/24/01 02:19 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Sorry Gel, the wife must be slipping stuff into my coffee again.

I hate it when she does that. I should never have bought that extra life insurance.



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#378999 - 02/24/01 05:53 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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I was in the Army too, and so was my husband (posting in the IL-2 mission builder topic under IceWolf).

We were discussing the posts on this topic, and it reminded him of a song (he's talented-plays guitar)-"Christmas in the Trenches," about WWI. One line at the end is "On each end of the rifle we're the same."

Frankly, I treasure the online friendships I've forged with Oleg Maddox and other non-U.S. developers. It seems so often that the problems between us are at the level of governments, where the simple grunts carrying the mail can almost always settle differences with a bottle of schnapps and one-on-one communication. Like Carl and Tom, I too was trained to fight the Pact (I was the battalion training NCO in our MP battalion on Pact techniques and equipment) nations, but today I hold no animosity toward them. In fact, I prefer the Russian virtual aircraft I have flown, particularly the MiG-3. I just wish I could figure out all the instruments on the dashboard; all I recognize are the altimeter and the artificial horizon....

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
#379000 - 02/24/01 09:49 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Cat:
One line at the end is "On each end of the rifle we're the same."


"If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility" - Longfellow

Great post cat!

Quote:
Like Carl and Tom, I too was trained to fight the Pact (I was the battalion training NCO in our MP battalion on Pact techniques and equipment) nations, but today I hold no animosity toward them.


I find it interesting that that seems to be the case with former combatants - WWII japanese fighter ace Saburo Sakai once said that he considered many of his best friends to be amongst the Americans he'd met after the war. I love this story that Peter Bernard tells on the WWII pilots group page ;

Quote:

Many, many years have passed and until 5 years ago, I had never talked about experiences during World War II. When I came to the first meeting of World War II Pilots, I saw six American pilots making introductions, and talking. One man said that he was a B-26 pilot. I started to leave thinking that coming was a very bad idea. In JV44 we had shot down many of the B-26 Marauders and was afraid that I would not be welcome. As I started to leave, a man (the B-26 pilot) reached out and touched my arm and asked me who I was. For some unknown reason I explained to him who I was. When I finished;, he said something very much like "You nazi bastard!...you shot down all my friends!." Well, I was stunned and humiliated for about 2 seconds before he and all the other pilots started laughing as if they had just told the funniest joke in the world. Realizing they were only having a little fun at my expense; en I said "Yah, you Marauder pilots were easy targets, flying along in a straight line like ducks." Then we all laughed for a long time, shook hands, and slapped each other on the back. We spent the rest of the time at this first lunch telling stories and telling jokes. I felt like I had just met long lost comrades, and everybody has been so good to me ever since, and I have so many new friends now. They even make me sit at the head table. Of course they say it is necessary so they can keep an eye on me. But then, I can of course keep an eye on them!

Peter Bernard, Quoted From this article


I've been fortunate in that I've never been a combatant, but I'm proud of my nation's servicemen, and their achievements. Being an aviation buff, and having been raised on stirring tales of the battles fought by the RAF, I honour their sacrifices on Battle of Britain day and Rememberance Day. I also see no reason why that should leave me blind to the skill of men like Adolf Galland, Hans Marseille, or the excellence of the engineering of Kurt Tank.

And yes, I fly all sides when I play EAW, and I'm hell with wings in the Dora

Patriotism can be a fine thing - it can inspire us to new heights of bravery and achievement - but when it blinds us to the genuine bravery, excellence and achievement of others, that's a terrible shame.

Quote:

In fact, I prefer the Russian virtual aircraft I have flown, particularly the MiG-3. I just wish I could figure out all the instruments on the dashboard; all I recognize are the altimeter and the artificial horizon....

Heh, I find I'm the same - Russian aircraft are so rarely simulated that it's a real pleasure to fly one - when it flies as nicely as the Flanker in Flanker 2, it's bliss indeed! I find that the HUD system suits me better too - the pitch ladder in the virtual Falcon, Hornet, Commanche & Apache just don't click with me at all!

With regard to deciphering the instruments, a little knowledge of the cyrillic alphabet might help (I find it useful flying in Flanker 2). Might be worth looking out a teach yourself Russian book for that, assuming that it wouldn't raise too many eyebrows for you at work, of course!

Regards,


------------------
Flt. Lt. Bertie "Binky" Farqhuarson,
No.1 AGHL Squadron
"Nous Sommes Tous Les Singes"
----------------------

Edit: Included URLs for quoted article & WWII pilots group main page.

[This message has been edited by wildstyle24_7 (edited February 24, 2001).]

#379001 - 02/25/01 03:34 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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It is very refreshing to see that this thread has turned positive. I appreciate the good words by Cat, Gel, Tom, and others.

When this community is good, it is very good. When it is bad, it tends to be very bad. Here's hoping for good thoughts.

Best Wishes,
Carl



[This message has been edited by Combatsim_ssi (edited February 25, 2001).]

#379002 - 02/25/01 05:38 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Tom Cofield wrote:
These kinds of debates are healthy and IMHO important


Sorry sir, but I disagree with you on this one. These kinds of debate are not IMHO important. I live in South America and therefore the problems between west and east are not relevant to me. I am here because I like to fly a simulator called Flanker. That’s all. You should understand that since Combatsim becomes a “pay per view” site, the community that is right now visiting your site comes from many different countries around the world. Countries where peoples doesn’t gives a priority importance to these kinds of things. IMHO people of different groups compose the actual “HQ” community; this is easy to see when you read the post. Writers comes from different cultures and different nationalities. Therefore I can’t see how these kinds of debates could be healthy or important for the international community.

Quote:
Dino wrote:
If this game is successful, it could save the Russian Economy, allowing them to build the next generation fighter. That in turn would allow for future wars to occur between third world countries who buy those new fighters, in say 5 - 10 years.


Dear Sir, are you talking seriously? Do you really think that a good simulator could cost the development of a 5th generation fighter? Do you really think that “it could save the Russian Economy”?. I am asking you, because English is not my natural language, so maybe I don`t understand what you are really trying to say. Thanks in advance.

---------------------
Regarding “Lock On”. As far as I know, it’s a joint venture between Russians and Americans to produce a hardcore simulator. It will have Russians and Americans fighters to fly. Could somebody tell me please, what is wrong with that? I use to fly many Americans simulators, why I can’t fly Russian ones? The real problem we are facing here is that nobody is producing combat flight simulators. (With the exception of Ssi/Eagle Dynamics) Therefore, if we don’t support the only one company that is actually developing sims... what sims we will fly in the following years? “Lock on” will be a kick ass simulator. It is in development by a group of Russian and Americans programmers ho understand that a cooperative work can be done with real benefit to both sides. I hope the hardcore community can understand this fact buying the simulator.

Best regards. -

------------------
Edgardo F. Alessio
Visit the ECV 56 Cóndor site!!!

#379003 - 02/25/01 02:17 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Hi Edgardo ,
I must respectfully point out that when people from all over the world can get together and work through some differences, then it is extremely valuable!
If NATO had ever gone to war against the Pact, it would have affected everybody ... to some degree.

I too trained with the understanding that should my country go to war, it would do so as part of a larger force. Every conflict that my country has been involved in since WWII, has been done in conjunction with U.S.A 's participation ... (actually I've probably said that the wrong way around ).

I'm proud to be Australian, I'm proud that I served, and I'm very proud of humanity when people can learn to understand and accept each other a little better through a common love for flying combat simulations.

I hope this doesn't sound ridiculous, but it's a much better scenario than when the shooting really starts.

Respectfully
Teapot.

[This message has been edited by Teapot (edited February 25, 2001).]

#379004 - 02/25/01 04:26 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Yes Carl, when a thread is positive it goes well. Too bad I started it out stupidly.

Edgardo, you have to understand the culture that permeated the US over the almost 75 years that the Soviet Union was in power. We were in a state of almost terror that the Soviet Union and Communism would overrun the World and destroy the 'American Way of Life'.

It was a culture of misunderstanding and mistrust on both sides of the ocean. For almost 45 years the entire US foreign policy of the United States has been a policy of 'containment' of Communism. Originally the fear began in the American Great Depression when leaders thought that Communism would sweep like wildfire through unemployed workers causing the overthrow of the US Government. Similar things almost happened in countries like Germany and Italy and caused the rise of men like Hitler and Mussolini.

After the war, the Cold War was waged, and it became hot at times. Places like Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, El Salvador, Cambodia, the Bay of Pigs (Cuba) happened because of the constant chess game that went on between Soviet leaders and Western Leaders.

At the same time we (Americans) were taught that the Russians were stupid, cruel, evil people who were out to get us. A lot of people remember the saying Better Red than Dead. Most movies in the US that had Russians in them made them out to be ugly, sneaky, conniving (and fat usually) or big, powerful and evil and above all, not to be trusted.

This is why I think now the discussion is important. It takes years and years to remove the suspicion that peoples have against each other. I can only speak for our side of the ocean but I am sure that many Russians were trained to believe the Americans have exactly the same evil qualities that we applied to them. The best part about groups like this is that people with these preconceived ideas have trouble justifying them to themselves when they meet an articulate, intelligent and thoughtful individual from the country that they once hated.

This may not have 'affected' your country like it did ours directly, but it did indirectly and the end result was a lot of problems. It is up to us, the 20-40 year olds out there to develop friendships where there was once mistrust.

I applaud Carl and Matt in that respect. As buisiness leaders they reached out to a foreign company, on that belonged to the 'evil empire' at one time and have brought a great title to the US. It is hard to call another man stupid when he brings you an intelligent product like that.

As for Dino, he was being funny when he wrote that. But in a way, he could be prophetic. If Russian products can get past that 'these are crap' imprssion that a lot of Westerners have then they can probably make some sales. It happened to Japan and more recently is happening to China and Korea. Give them time, all new 'developing' (and I use that term very loosly with Russian, they are very developed now, just not as savvy about world sales as the West, give them 10 years) it takes time to figure out the appetites of the West.

Dino sounds like he is an example of the mistrust that has occured over the last 75 years. We in America still fear the military might of Russia and a lot of Americans wan't to kick the Bear when it is down. I don't know if Dino is really serious in wanting to do that, I hope not. As a 15 year military man I hope that the war that I fight will never arrive. Any war, at any time, is the result of a failure on someones part. It may be unavoidable, but it is still a failure. Any real military man will tell you that.

------------------
Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
Cofster1@SimHQ.com

[This message has been edited by SimHQ Tom Cofield (edited February 25, 2001).]


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#379005 - 02/25/01 09:25 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by SimHQ Tom Cofield:

Edgardo, you have to understand the culture that permeated the US over the almost 75 years that the Soviet Union was in power. We were in a state of almost terror that the Soviet Union and Communism would overrun the World and destroy the 'American Way of Life'.


That's funny Tom...

I grew up on Canadian Air Force bases all over this country and in Europe from the early 70's to the late 80's and never saw the same paranoid mentality you describe the American's of having of the former Warsaw Pact alliance.

As for sims and east/west aircraft, I am a fan of aviation, in particular military aviation and I buy and fly these sims for the pure pleasure of flying the different jets and not for the pleasure of flying a NATO aircraft to blow up Russians or a Russian aircraft to blow up Americans. To me this logic is absolutely ridiculous in this day and age and only makes the American posters who support these thoughts look like complete and utter idiots all the while giving their fellow countrymen a bad image.

These are games, they give us the opportunity to fly some amazing machinery be it the Hornet or the Flanker and we should appreciate the huge amount of work that is involved in giving us this opportunity and thank and support the developers, producers, and publishers from both sides of the pond.

We all love aviation so let's get the most out of this hobby we can rather then thinking of it as defying your country because if you don't you will miss out... and if you are sacrificing flying Eagle Dynamics/SSI's Flanker and Fulcrum because of your red white and blue blood then you are missing out on the best flight experience available on a PC!

Cheers

#379006 - 02/26/01 02:45 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Actually Stinger, family and friends of military personnel often do not know or feel what the personnel do themselves.

The fact is military people in most democratic nations are largely despised and maligned by the very people they aim to protect.

The paranoia was/is real. The reasons for the paranoia on the other hand might or might not be there.

Just remember this ... anyone who takes the contract knows that they are willingly laying their lives on the line. It's not a matter that shouldl be shrugged off.

Cheers
Teapot

#379007 - 02/26/01 03:01 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Personally I think SSI is making the right move. There just aren't enough 'hardcores'out there to support development of high end simulators. The name change has broadening appeal, and when a Lock On box is sitting next to an Age of Empires 3, or The Sims 'I don't get the point of this game' with an F-15 or A-10 on the cover, you are almost guaranteed to sell some vs. a box with a jet with a big red star on it.

Yeah, yeah, cold war is over, I can't believe stupid Americans get touchy about that...blah blah. Well, they do. That's just a fact of life. Box art sells games.

Most folks outsides the US know very little of the inner workings of the computer game department at Wal-Mart and CompUSA. That's just the way it. Factor end rednecks and people with WWF T-shirts, and you have some pretty tough customers.

Sims need to change. They need to become fun again. (Not saying Flanker isn't fun of course)

Hardcores also need to lighten up!! Some sims are going to have to be made more casual to increase sales, as TK noted in the Project One forum (btw, thanks for lunch TK )

I look forward to this sim as well, no matter what it's called. As a former USAF'er I cannot wait to slam missiles up the boo hiney of a hapless MiG!!

I say, good call SSI.


Hook'em Horns
#379008 - 02/26/01 04:01 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Hi Teapot,

Actually my Dad was in more danger during his year long UN peacekeeping tour in the Mideast for the Arab Israeli war and during his time in Cyprus then he was when we were based in Lahr Germany.

It's now 2001 and the idea of Russian and Communist world domination is long gone and why people would still hang on to this paranoid belief is beyond me.

The funny thing is is that most of the posters who use this theory of not flying a Russian aircraft are the younger kids and not the adults who know better.

Cheers

#379009 - 02/26/01 05:53 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Carl said..

"When this community is good, it is very good. When it is bad, it tends to be very bad. Here's hoping for good thoughts."

In other words, it is just like any other community populated by humans....

#379010 - 02/26/01 10:33 AM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  

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Quote:
Originally posted by Goanna:
Carl said..

"When this community is good, it is very good. When it is bad, it tends to be very bad. Here's hoping for good thoughts."

In other words, it is just like any other community populated by humans....


True, but being a member of this particular community has me hoping for a better environment. Fortunately, there's more good than bad (most of the time.)

Cheers,
Carl

#379011 - 02/26/01 01:23 PM Re: Lock on: Modern air combat  
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Well Carl, I will rarely ever have anything bad to say about SSI. You guys have supported the Wargaming Genre when it became patently unhip to do so.

You also have allowed companies like http://www.matrixgames.com to continue to develop your products after their shelf life has ended. This has brought games like War in Russia and Steel Panthers to a whole new group of people.

I laud your company for this and many other things. It is rare when a company does that.



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Tom Cofield
Feature Editor, SimHQ.com
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The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
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