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#3787883 - 05/26/13 02:48 PM Which study sim to play?  
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iam73 Offline
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Hi guys,
Not sure if I'm posting this question at the right place, but I didn't want to cross-post in the Falcon and DCS forums, so here goes.
Say I want to start learning a new study sim, which would you recommend between F4 BMS and DCS A-10?

I'll be playing single player only, no online stuff possible for me.
In terms of aircraft preferences, I must say I prefer the A-10 over the F-16. On the other hands, I prefer A-A stuff more than A-G.

Not sure what other details I should provide...

Thoughts?

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#3787887 - 05/26/13 03:00 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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Quote:
no online stuff possible for me.

does that mean you would have trouble downloading installation files for either sim?

#3787893 - 05/26/13 03:06 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: kramer]  
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iam73 Offline
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Originally Posted By: kramer
Quote:
no online stuff possible for me.

does that mean you would have trouble downloading installation files for either sim?


Hi, no that wouldn't be an issue at all. Money is not either so if A-10 sounds a lot more good, I can afford it.

#3787896 - 05/26/13 03:15 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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I'm partial to Falcon with BMS. The dynamic campaign might make single-player stuff more enjoyable.


Ken Cartwright

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http://www.techflyer.net

#3787897 - 05/26/13 03:24 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted By: Arthonon
I'm partial to Falcon with BMS. The dynamic campaign might make single-player stuff more enjoyable.


Does that fact that BMS won't be updated anymore makes any difference? As opposed to the DCS world, which should evolve for quite a while still?

#3787900 - 05/26/13 03:32 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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If you prefer A2A then you will enjoy the F16 more than the A10. The F16 is no slouch at taking out ground targets, so you have the best of both worlds there, and as Ken says, the single player campaign is much better in Falcon 4 BMS. DCS A10 is an impressive sim though. It's systems modelling is outstanding. If money is not a problem, take a look at both. DCS world is free and comes with a free aircraft (SU25T), so you can get a taste of what DCS has to offer before buying the A10.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
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#3787906 - 05/26/13 04:04 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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Originally Posted By: iam73
In terms of aircraft preferences, I must say I prefer the A-10 over the F-16. On the other hands, I prefer A-A stuff more than A-G.

How can you prefer the A-10 but also want to do air-to-air? That's like saying I like SUVs but I like speed/acceleration.

Originally Posted By: iam73
Does that fact that BMS won't be updated anymore makes any difference? As opposed to the DCS world, which should evolve for quite a while still?

What makes you say that? BMS has had 5 Updates since it's been released to the public, and although there won't be any more "Updates," that is because we are waiting for version 4.33 (BMS is currently 4.32, Update 5).


Okay, with that out of the way, you need to make up your mind. The A-10 is a very fun CAS aircraft, but it can't do anything else. You can probably do SEAD, but that's just an excuse to be crazy biggrin I love the TGP in the A-10 vs the way it is currently implemented in BMS. There's also nothing quite as bad-ass as the 30mm gun. I do a lot of A-G in BMS and I miss my 30mm!! sigh However, if you decide to get DCS A-10C, be aware that the sim is currently plagued by a few bugs, the biggest of which is a massive FPS slowdown when CBUs start exploding. Annoying, especially as we didn't have this problem in the earlier days of DCS A-10C. And trust me, CBUs (along with Mavericks) are the babies you want to play with.

As far as missions go, I used to do at least 4 hours per flight. Being able to go up, park the throttle on the stops, and fly like that for hours without worrying about the tanker is one of the pluses of the A-10. However, I never played much SP as I got annoyed with the AI wingman so I can't comment much on the offline experience. As for the online one, well, it also depends on who you're flying with. Some people like to fly "full-real" wherein your payload is restricted to what real pilots would bring (no 6 Mavericks!), while some people play like CounterStrike, just going up to see who gets the most kills.

The F-16 is a multi-role fighter. It can do A-A, A-G, SEAD, CAS, etc. The challenge of the F-16 is that it is very fuel-hungry. Each flight, I calculate my fuel load, fuel needs, and check how much "play time" I have. I've bugged out of fights a few times simply because I didn't have the gas.

With regards to the mission, there is a bit less control compared to DCS, but this is a good thing as it leaves a good few aspects to the AI. You can have a group of fighters in an enemy airbase and they'll come up in one mission but will be nowhere to be found in another mission. While DCS relies on brilliant mission designers, the "wonky" dynamic campaign of BMS ensures that it is very unlikely that your two campaigns will be the same. Fragging an A-G mission only to jettison the bombs as I get jumped by MiGs is annoying, but gives variety to the actual simming experience as well.


********************

In any case, I don't see why there is a problem with getting both. While you may not be PROFICIENT in both aircraft anytime soon, why not give both of them a try, decide for yourself, then we can work on getting you proficient later on. biggrin


Hope that helps!


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#3787914 - 05/26/13 04:30 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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#3787942 - 05/26/13 05:33 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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Dos gringos!

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#3787956 - 05/26/13 06:40 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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Hi iam73.

Very good responses so far. Since you prefer single player I'm going to throw my vote with BMS. Although the dynamic campaign in BMS has its faults, there is simply no better single player experience out there in my opinion. It's dynamic. There is nothing quite as cool as those times when you're on mission and you come across some AI flight going about their business oblivious to you (unless you call for help or something).

DCS is also a very nice sim, although I have far less time with it. I concur with the recommendation to try DCS World with the Su-25T for free and see what the sim is all about. In fact, if you already have the Falcon 4 CD then the buy-in for both these sims is non-existent monetarily. It's all about time.

The thing about BMS over DCS, especially for single player, is that once you get it installed, you just slide over to the campaign, click "start" and then you can turn your brain on autopilot for figuring out what missions to fly. The computer will do all the work making an ATO for you to play with. For DCS, once you've gone through the handful of missions, you're either going to need to download new missions, create a mission for yourself, or click quick start missions. No matter how you do it, there's no real continuity like you get in BMS. That's what separates the single player experience between the two, IMO.

So, I prefer BMS but I recommend you try both and see which grabs you.


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#3787969 - 05/26/13 07:05 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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#3787975 - 05/26/13 07:31 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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Regarding the preference for air-to-air, if you're in it for the long run* there's always DCS F-18C to take into consideration.


*possibly very long run.

#3787991 - 05/26/13 08:22 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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I don't think it would fair to assess DCS A10C by trying out the SU-25 in DCS World. The only thing I would say is try DCS World so that you can see what the DCS graphics is all about.

While I would say the Georgian theatre of DCS is gorgeous, the way the F-16 flies and the way you are engaged in a mission in BMS, the "lack of many 3D buildings" in BMS isn't really a factor.


- Ice
#3788014 - 05/26/13 09:47 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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I'd definitely go with BMS IF you can find a copy of Falcon4 to acces the executable needed for installation of BMS. DCS is awesome. And their systems fidelity is probably much better than BMS. But single player is dull unless you are good with building your own sandbox with the editor. The included campaigns are as good as can be had with the static, staged system that DCS uses but you will never buy into the illusion that you are not alone. With BMS you will. You can read all about the limitations and databases and bubbles at play with Falcon's dynamic campaign. It won't matter. Once you crank up you are suckered into the world. It just works.

Once you master Falcon I promise you that you will buy DCS:A10 anyway. The "Study" part is 80% of the fun and you won't be able to help yourself.

#3788017 - 05/26/13 10:01 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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My vote would be BMS - there's a lot in that for the single player and its free, where the full DCS experience via modules is pretty pricey. On the other had, there's always the SAM simulator. Ground to Air... copter

#3788019 - 05/26/13 10:02 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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A group of guys and myself used to play DCS A10C and get some of the missions made by the community guys. It was fun, but after a while, we knew what to expect. That is why I never fly the missions I created. It was like watching a movie and knowing the ending and the motivations of all the characters, and trying not to spoil it for the other guys in the room.

When we went over to BMS, it was as simple as selecting one of the campaigns, flying our mission, then RTB. On the way out, we passed a few F-15s on their way home. On the way back, we passed some Vipers on their way out. One of the guys said "you don't see that in DCS!"

Simply put, the amount of time you spent creating missions vs flying missions in DCS is higher. I'm here to fly, not to test triggers and RNGs. BMS for me.


- Ice
#3788126 - 05/27/13 07:36 AM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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For offline play I suggest BMS. The 'old' Falcon campaign beats the DCS missions hands down.

Online I prefer DCS A-10. CAS with a couple of buddies and a human JTAC is simply an amazing experience.


"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

#3788162 - 05/27/13 10:20 AM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Originally Posted By: Para_Bellum
CAS with a couple of buddies and a human JTAC is simply an amazing experience.


My VFS is currently doing CAS, so minus the awesome gun, the CAS experience in BMS is amazing too. Interestingly, with the "shortcoming" of the F-16 (being very fuel-hungry), it makes for some interesting missions. In the last one, our 4-ship CAS got tasked but my Lead had me (#3) and #4 orbit a few ways off. After a decent ingress plus listening to Lead try to find his target for 10 minutes, I decided me and #4 needed some fuel so we exited the area, hooked up with the tanker, then returned in time to catch our 9-lines. smile


- Ice
#3788216 - 05/27/13 01:53 PM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
Originally Posted By: Para_Bellum
CAS with a couple of buddies and a human JTAC is simply an amazing experience.


My VFS is currently doing CAS, so minus the awesome gun, the CAS experience in BMS is amazing too. Interestingly, with the "shortcoming" of the F-16 (being very fuel-hungry), it makes for some interesting missions. In the last one, our 4-ship CAS got tasked but my Lead had me (#3) and #4 orbit a few ways off. After a decent ingress plus listening to Lead try to find his target for 10 minutes, I decided me and #4 needed some fuel so we exited the area, hooked up with the tanker, then returned in time to catch our 9-lines. smile


When we play CAS missions in MP the JTAC also doubles as "game master", with all the goodies possible with the combined arms DCS module. Not saying that CAS in BMS isn't fun, but DCS in that regard can provide a much more intense experience. It's amazing how different missions play out when a nasty game master is in control of ground forces. wink


"...late afternoon the Air Tasking Order came in [and] we found the A-10 part and we said, "We are going where!? We are doing what!?"

Capt. Todd Sheehy, Hog pilot, on receiving orders during Operation Desert Storm

#3788961 - 05/29/13 12:06 AM Re: Which study sim to play? [Re: iam73]  
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Thanks all for the feedback, I just bought the original Falcon 4 game from Kijiji for 5$ lol...
Can't wait to start experimenting. In the meantime, I have a bunch of video walkthroughs I downloaded from Youtube, so watching this over and over again, and started doing some reading from the Falcon manual I found online as well as the BMS.

Quick question regarding manuals, is the Falcon original manual still relevant? Beside the keystroke I mean, because I think I read they were all changed with BMS, but overall is the information in the manual still accurate and worth reading ?

Cheers!

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