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#3782056 - 05/14/13 02:19 PM Rudder pedals ( Edited : in production : MFG Crosswind )  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Product is finished now and ready for preorder...read all final features at page 12

Website is online
http://www.mfg.simundza.com/

Updates 28.01.2013 on Page 18

This below is old info :



Hi all
I think it's finaly time to reveal what I've been working on. So I figure it's best place to start here. I am co-owner of a family furniture production business...and have a nice CNC machine there. Also as a flight sim enthusiast I decided to make some stuff for myself. While designing this new pedals I thought some of you might be interested as well, and it's possible that I'll be selling these too so I tried to design it to be suitable for others.

I present you my first prototype, with many small flaws in CNC machining or design... but just for you to get the idea.

Characteristics are :

- almost all Composite, some small parts machined from aluminium.
- Extremly precise and no lag.
- Contactless sensors and 12 bit resolution on all 3 axes - USB connection
- 15 ball bearings, all industrial components
- adjustable pedals angle from 20 to 53 ˘degree ( up to 63 degree with added extra bottom plate )
- differential brakes with 20 degree angle movement
- different pedal styles - easy to exchange ( only 1 screw)
- CAM and spring centering design with adjustable tension on spring , and also two spring positions for separate adjustment of tension near center and near the end of motion.
- spare CAM with different sliding curve...still in development...but will probably be no center feel and low tension for helicopters.

Intentions are to produce cessna style and combat - F16 style pedals. It is not my intention to integrate force sensing brakes at the moment. It is based on spring tension brakes.

In prototype you can see that I made few mistakes on CNC while making holes, right brake spring is missing, electronics are partly connected as I am still testing some electronics and sensors.

I'm still not happy with cam centering becouse while adjusting spring to get more force centering feel go stronger too, specialy noticable while quick changes from one side to another - I will reduce it. Also, I'm waiting for a few other bearings to come becouse these Y bearing have too much radial play for my taste, maybe i'm a perfectionist but that's the way it is. Also i'm trying to reduce some weight , as at the moment it's built too strong. Pedals weight 5,5 kg and can support over 110 kg on each pedal...unnecessary strong. You can see also that I made baseplate from chipboard..just for testing, later I will make Composite.

Let's say this is 80 % finished design.

Please leave your comment
Milan


















[size:8pt][/size]

Last edited by milan_croatia; 01/28/14 01:27 AM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3782130 - 05/14/13 05:16 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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J.A.K. Offline
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Nice design and proto!!!! How about a gimbal design thumbsup

#3782138 - 05/14/13 05:26 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Thanks. I need to perfect this one first, then, i will make same additional pedals cessna style and F-16 / boeing 747 style... it's ment to be easy to exchange. Hight of this rudder from the floor is also already suitable for cessna too.
- after all that I'll see gimbal design, but only If it's possible to implement force feedback :-)

#3782272 - 05/14/13 09:14 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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komemiute Offline
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Any idea about the cost?


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#3782293 - 05/14/13 09:44 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Very nice!


I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3782331 - 05/14/13 10:43 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Well, I wanted to bring it for 200 eur...onfortunately I'm already over that budget :-(

Let's put it this way... I want pedals to be perfect, and under 300 eur. I think I can do that, but I am still not shure :-)

#3782339 - 05/14/13 10:58 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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komemiute Offline
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Good work anyway! biggrin

Keep going!


Click to reveal..
"Himmiherrgottksakramentzefixhallelujah!"
Para_Bellum

"It takes forever +/- 2 weeks for the A-10 to get anywhere significant..."
Ice

"Ha! If it gets him on the deck its a start!"
MigBuster

"What people like and what critics praise are rarely the same thing. 'Critic' is just another one of those unnecessary, overpaid, parasitic jobs that the human race has churned out so that clever slackers won't have to actually get a real job and possibly soil their hands."
Sauron
#3782352 - 05/14/13 11:06 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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thanks on support :-)
I need a bit help from you too.

I wanted to make it comfortable so I made it wide and large. Distance from center to center of the pedal is 430 mm, and pedals itself are a bit shy of 120 mm. That makes total width of 545 mm. It is wide enough, but is it too much ?

#3782357 - 05/14/13 11:10 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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komemiute Offline
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I'll check on my body-type and let you know.

BTW I live in Friuli for a long time and LOVED Croatia! biggrin Big FAN!


Click to reveal..
"Himmiherrgottksakramentzefixhallelujah!"
Para_Bellum

"It takes forever +/- 2 weeks for the A-10 to get anywhere significant..."
Ice

"Ha! If it gets him on the deck its a start!"
MigBuster

"What people like and what critics praise are rarely the same thing. 'Critic' is just another one of those unnecessary, overpaid, parasitic jobs that the human race has churned out so that clever slackers won't have to actually get a real job and possibly soil their hands."
Sauron
#3782359 - 05/14/13 11:11 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Nice work! Good luck with this endeavor!


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#3782607 - 05/15/13 02:33 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Great design, well implemented.

What is the material that you used?


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http://hornetpits.org/index.php?topic=15.0
#3782626 - 05/15/13 03:02 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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milan_croatia Offline
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Material is some sort of HPL (High pressure laminate). The one that I use is made for applications in boat interiours.
It is difficult to work with on CNC but since I work with this material for years I found a way :-) I use all same thicknes becouse it's made from offcuts from other jobs. So I glue two together were needed with some special glue.

Material properties ... about 30 % weaker on impact than aluminium, but it's more elastic than aluminium. To achieve same characteristics as aluminium product I simply use a bit thicker material. It is similar to bakelite. While core material is black I use white or grey surface in production.

To be safe and for testing I built pedals too strong. It weights 5,5 kg. Now I am trying to reduce weight to be under 5 kg.

#3782809 - 05/15/13 08:11 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Whatever the material is, it gives a very nice finish to the pedals.

#3783251 - 05/16/13 07:18 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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I like the design,construction and concept. They look very sturdy and solid.

#3783313 - 05/16/13 09:59 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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choowy Offline
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That is a work of art!! Would look sick in the grey finish. Well done. There's all sorts of building options open with that material and your CNC.

#3783506 - 05/17/13 12:35 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Originally Posted By: milan_croatia
Thanks. I need to perfect this one first, then, i will make same additional pedals cessna style and F-16 / boeing 747 style... it's ment to be easy to exchange. Hight of this rudder from the floor is also already suitable for cessna too.
- after all that I'll see gimbal design, but only If it's possible to implement force feedback :-)


milan, I loke how you think smile
A few things:

-neat idea, I could see these replacing my Saitek combat pedals.

- in for force feedback gimble. biggrin. For what it's worth, , the communiy needs this far more than it needs pedals. Not that your pedals aren't awesome though. There are decent commercial pedals available ( loke the Saitek rudders) but we havent had a GOOD FF stick since the microsoft wingman. Further more, theres a market for $500 sim controls like this, as evidant by fanatec racing gear and the thrustmaster warthog.

-the Saitek combat rudder pedals feel like a good width to me. Im away from home at the moment, but specs should be floating around the internet.


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#3783508 - 05/17/13 12:47 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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I'm glad you like it. You encourage me to finish it sooner :-)

True, there are lot of possibilities with this material and my CNC. However, this material is not suitable for all. I also machine aluminium on my cnc when necessary. But it takes longer and aluminium is more expensive per kilogram. So I can build some aluminium parts on places where I need to reduce thickness of material and retain strenght.

I started with rudder pedals becouse I needed one for myself, and there were no good option to buy one. Simped's stoped production...and they lacked of precision anyway. Cheap ones I didn't want. Only reasonable option was a russian VKB or BRD. Those I truly admire. They build solid and sturdy product. Only thing is the looks, It's too many bolts and nuts all over the place for my taste. I guess it's becouse I produce fine furniture for living and I've been hiding screw's and making products look and feel solid for too long to accept that design :-).

So I built my own, first model just to see how usable this material is. That was probably year and a half ago. While my first try wasn't realy something :-) It gave me many answers. Material is realy sturdy. Doesn't show any sign of fatique even on very thin profiles. It's low wear too. It can't be used for sliding elements as there is too much friction. I sucessfuly machined teflon and polycarbonate for that purposes.

I used this material as a spacer for multiblade machine. I also used it as a plate between saws on multiblade machine. It's still holding after one year, and that machine cuts few thousands meters per shift :-) It only showed clear signs of wear...about few tenths of mm where wood is passing under pressure rollers. And that is not much. Even casted Iron shows signs of wear on that place.

So material is more than suitable and tested for purpose, but only if used properly...right thickness, orientation, machining speeds and feeds etc. That information I will keep for myself :-)

UPDATE to rudder pedals :

I recived few different bearings and definitely decided not to use Y bearings. Just to let you know if you're thinking of using those in your projects they are not suitable for axis as they have too much radial play which is not good. But I'm still gonna leave those bearing for brakes becouse they have other qualities and can be good enough for brakes with proper calibration. It also alow me to use hall sensor for brakes becouse there is no metal near it and it's smaller than magnetoresistor.

I think I have right bearing for main axis too...but I'll tell more after testing. I'll be building new prototype next week and we'll see. There are some small glitches that I'll be sorting in that prototype too.

#3783530 - 05/17/13 01:40 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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to "AggressorBLUE"

Saitek rudder are good for general use. However, if you want a product that will truly last and give you more realism then you don't look for that product. I don't know how precise Saitek rudder are, probably 10 bit, measuring 1024 positions. Mine will be 12 bit 4096 positions. Saitek rudder use potentiometer. it's not questionable that they will wear out..it's just a matter of time. Hall sensor or magnetoresistor don't have contact and tend to last, well, forever :-). Also, by looking at reviews on youtube I see Saitek rudder has some play and don't look that sturdy. On Saitek rudder you can increase tension strenght but that increases return to middle resistance too which is not realistic. That's why I didn't implement dumping element in my rudder.

I don't know what are Saitek width dimensions but I can see that it's not enough, not to comfortably hold your legs.

In my design, as you can see on pictures, there will be nothing but floor under the pedal surface. It's not important for this Me 109 look alike pedal style, but it is important for combat style and cessna style becouse your legs will rest on the floor...not on the plastic surface like saiteks.

Only thing that my pedal is short of...true realistic dumping brakes. That's expensive and complicated to implement so I decided not to. I simply decided that brakes are not that much important. So I made them function correctly and to require reasonable force to apply brakes for home simulation use. If I opted for true realisam, and I've flown a few types of aircraft, than I would need dumper for brakes that is twice stronger than centering spring. And force feedback motors instead of centering spring so pedals strenght adjusts according to airspeed, propwash, etc. That is only a dream for the future :-)


For a force feedback gimbal design... I think simulation community is not near that solution yet. Mechanics are no problem but electronic devices and drivers are a true problem. Implementing motor and gears, maybe even belt driven motor is not problem. There are accurate DC motors and servos for DIY CNC building. So it's only a thing to make a proper electronics and damn licencing fee.

Milan

#3783549 - 05/17/13 02:18 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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More projects than sense!
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Have you thought about just selling CAD drawings for the rudder pedals and maybe a hardware kit?

That would allow people to have the parts cut locally and would save a ton on your costs.

g.


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#3783566 - 05/17/13 02:50 PM Re: Rudder pedals - prototype 1 - possible production [Re: milan_croatia]  
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Milan, just to add my congratulations on a great design and all the best on further refinements. The design looks very sturdy and I imagine it will stand up to some long term usage.
Regards,
Derek

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