Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Some data about older "Shrike" and "Standart" ARM: (Hope this may be useful in case of future "realistic to the switch" SAM Sim tunning...)
"Shrike" - RCS in sa-2E frequency - 0.05-0.07 sq. m. / Aquisition range 43 km (narrow beam); 32 km (wide beam) "Standart" - RCS in sa-2E frequency - 0.20-0.40 sq. m. / Aquisition range 64 km (narrow beam); 45 km (wide beam)...
"Shrike" - RCS in P-12 frequency - 0.70-1.00 sq. m. "Standart" - RCS in P-12 frequency - 3.50-4.50 sq. m.
Aquisition range for "Shrike" with certain posibility for aquisition (0.5;0.84;0.98) for one scanning:
As we all know, ARM-s are just really expensive RPK switches no need of worry...
Quote:
It added: "UK armed forces have a range of capabilities that can be used to counter enemy air defence, including kinetic strikes via long-range cruise missiles, such as Tomahawk and Storm Shadow, and a multitude of highly effective precision air-to-ground weapons.
"Additionally, it is likely that we will work with our international partners on future major operations overseas and will therefore manage all of our capabilities as part of that coalition."
Over the years I've played SAMSim, I've discovered you can shoot down anti-radiation missiles, if you're quick enough.
I was just shooting down AGM-88s and wondered if this was realistic?
Are the fuses in the SAM warheads quick enough? Depending on which SAM you're using, your missile's speed + the speed of the ARM is going to be mach 3 to mach 4.
A slight delay when fired against a 15m-20m long aircraft doesn't matter, and might even be a good thing, causing the missile to detonate near the middle of the aircraft instead of in front of the aircraft's nose.
But an AGM-88 is just 4m long.
Wouldn't the combination of being a weak target for the fuse to detect, plus the extreme combined speed, plus the target is very short, make the warhead detonate behind the missile?
Over the years I've played SAMSim, I've discovered you can shoot down anti-radiation missiles, if you're quick enough.
I was just shooting down AGM-88s and wondered if this was realistic?
Are the fuses in the SAM warheads quick enough? Depending on which SAM you're using, your missile's speed + the speed of the ARM is going to be mach 3 to mach 4.
A slight delay when fired against a 15m-20m long aircraft doesn't matter, and might even be a good thing, causing the missile to detonate near the middle of the aircraft instead of in front of the aircraft's nose.
But an AGM-88 is just 4m long.
Wouldn't the combination of being a weak target for the fuse to detect, plus the extreme combined speed, plus the target is very short, make the warhead detonate behind the missile?
HARM has double of the length, compared to the RS-2US missile acting as firing range target in Ustka.
What is more interesting... ...with the S-300PS system the recommendation is to engage the HARM, instead switching off the 18 channel emitter.
You have a specific target acquisition button for this function.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
HARM has double of the length, compared to the RS-2US missile acting as firing range target in Ustka.
Yes, but the HARMs are presenting minimum-ish cross section to seeker and fuze when launched at a SAM. I also suspect the test shots may carry a radar reflector, at least where old systems are involved.
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
What is more interesting... ...with the S-300PS system the recommendation is to engage the HARM, instead switching off the 18 channel emitter.
So can PATRIOT, and could do this in GF1. It took hours and hours to verify this information, it came from the investigation of the friendly fire incidents. It also contained information regarding PATRIOT ABM performance.
Later, a PATRIOT got nailed with a HARM because it sang the wrong tune at an F-16.
All in all, I'm not sure that shooting ARMs is a high value proposition, though it's better than sitting there and taking it.
HARM has double of the length, compared to the RS-2US missile acting as firing range target in Ustka.
Yes, but the HARMs are presenting minimum-ish cross section to seeker and fuze when launched at a SAM. I also suspect the test shots may carry a radar reflector, at least where old systems are involved.
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
What is more interesting... ...with the S-300PS system the recommendation is to engage the HARM, instead switching off the 18 channel emitter.
So can PATRIOT, and could do this in GF1. It took hours and hours to verify this information, it came from the investigation of the friendly fire incidents. It also contained information regarding PATRIOT ABM performance.
Later, a PATRIOT got nailed with a HARM because it sang the wrong tune at an F-16.
All in all, I'm not sure that shooting ARMs is a high value proposition, though it's better than sitting there and taking it.
Correct. S-300PS and Patriot (surprise-surprise) has capabilities to detect, and based on crew decision engage or take ARM (Anti Radiation Missile) attacks... ... facing AGM-88E AARGM I would certainly opt for engage.
At a Patriot post, you as FCO sits at a relatively safety from the antenna (like SA-2/3/5), while the SA-4/6/8/10 crew sits at a life threatening distance from the ARM impact point.
PS: At an advanced arena (like OAF), decoys could play their part also...
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/14/1412:40 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
PS: At an advanced arena (like OAF), decoys could play their part also...
Meaning HARM traps like...
... as far as I know, TALD was only used during ODS. (not used in EDC, or in OAF)
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/14/1406:08 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Is there any truth to the story that the Serbs used tampered microwave ovens to spoof NATO anti-radiation missiles?
Sorry if that's a total noob question...
Just did a google, and this guy pretty much destroys the plausibility of it being effective, at least the counter arguments seem convincing to a lay-man like me... counter-arguments.
Last edited by Cold_Gambler; 07/11/1403:30 PM.
looks very modernishy-phoney-windows eighty-tabletty like
Asus P8P67 Pro Rev. 3.0 // i5 2500k @4.3 GHz with Noctua NH-D14 // nvidia gtx 780 // 8 GB DDR3 1600 //Win7 home 64 bit //450 GB VelociRaptor //Recon3D Champion
Is there any truth to the story that the Serbs used tampered microwave ovens to spoof NATO anti-radiation missiles?
Sorry if that's a total noob question...
Just compare the microwave power output (~1kW) to a Neva SNR (~200kW).
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Is there any truth to the story that the Serbs used tampered microwave ovens to spoof NATO anti-radiation missiles?
Sorry if that's a total noob question...
Just did a google, and this guy pretty much destroys the plausibility of it being effective, at least the counter arguments seem convincing to a lay-man like me... counter-arguments.
It appears that Serbs invented this myth themselves... For some kind of purpose
Yep! In later interviews Colonel Dani told that this was a "marketing trick" (as the so called "special" radar modification) in the information war....
Quite a miss. IMHO the ST-68 is still operable after this hit, with reduced effectiveness... ... just like this one. (Note the shrapnel marks)
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Quite a miss. IMHO the ST-68 is still operable after this hit, with reduced effectiveness...
Man, it was without warhead....
Here real one against same target:
Click to reveal..
Guessed so... ... they also fixed its direction towards the launcher, to make HARM life easier.
Last edited by Hpasp; 07/11/1407:54 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
AARGM Block 0. Initial fielded variant. Incorporates a detalink, and GPS point-to-point weapon navigation so it can be directed toward known and last-seen targets. On top of that, its multi-sensor system includes passive digital Anti-Radiation Homing with an increased field of view and increased detection range, counter shutdown algorithms that remember where radars were, active Millimeter Wave radar guidance for final attack, and a Weapon Impact Assessment transmitter datalink that sends information back at appropriate times.
AARGM Block 1. Full combat capability. Corrects a number of classified deficiencies, and adds a netted targeting real-time feed via Integrated Broadcast System (IBS) prior to missile launch. The IBS Receiver interfaces lets the system receive national intelligence data directly.
Got a question about ARMs in SAM sim. I don't know about the Shrikes in the Linebacker scenarios, but HARMs pop up slightly after they're fired, so shouldn't they leave the FoV on the targeting radar when they're launched at you in SAM sim?
HARMs have some form of inertial guidance capability, as well as a ridiculously wide FoV last I checked (but not necessarily confirmed with good sources). The self-protect launch mode for the HARM even allows for shots against threats behind the 3-9 line, at least IIRC.
The pre-briefed mode allows you to launch the missile from quite far away, with a pre-programmed threat for it to go after - you're basically launching against a threat that might not be emitting yet from far away, and once that radar turns on, the HARM will go after it.
Originally Posted By: scrim
Got a question about ARMs in SAM sim. I don't know about the Shrikes in the Linebacker scenarios, but HARMs pop up slightly after they're fired, so shouldn't they leave the FoV on the targeting radar when they're launched at you in SAM sim?
Hi! Anybody has some information what's the real capabilities of the ALARM missile against like SA-10?
The parachute mode, and the not too impressive max range not really answer the hype of the Alarm. Or?
Based on what I knew about SA-10, it cannot see the object on chute....
Contrary to the Patriot, the S-300PMU battery has 3 radar sets. - 36D6 (Tin Shield) could detect the ALARM in both modes - 76N6 (Clam Shell) could detect the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute - 30N6 (Tomb Stone) could detect and engage the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/27/1408:13 AM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Contrary to the Patriot, the S-300PMU battery has 3 radar sets. - 36D6 (Tin Shield) could detect the ALARM in both modes - 76N6 (Clam Shell) could detect the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute - 30N6 (Tomb Stone) could detect and engage the ALARM while it is approaching, could not detect it under the parachute
30N6 is a CW radar? I am too lazy to search for it now....
yep! Imagine a lot of small "Vega"-s all together...(What a dream huh?
It is a digital phase modulation steered, pencil beam, impulse doppler radar, with an additional CW function.
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/27/1407:13 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Similarly to all early digital radars, it can track just a few target. You do not want to overload its precious little memory with false targets (ground reflection, cloud reflection, etc).
Imagine Volhov with a limitation of only 6 return can be drawn.
Solution is to use SDC always on, with doppler threshold speed is selected to be fairly high, to be on the safe side against of high speed wind blown clouds.
Last edited by Hpasp; 09/28/1409:49 AM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
Would a modern radar, say the 92N6E or the AN/MPQ-65, be able to engage the ALARM under the parachute? If the limitation is based on memory, it seems like they should be able to.
We generally has no information on modern* SAM equipment.
* fielded after the Cold War ended
Last edited by Hpasp; 10/03/1409:46 PM.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
If the ALARM is hanging on a chute waiting on the SAM to say hi, it's too late for the SAM.
Originally Posted By: ckfinite
Would a modern radar, say the 92N6E or the AN/MPQ-65, be able to engage the ALARM under the parachute? If the limitation is based on memory, it seems like they should be able to.
Because the ALARM has already gotten itself into attack position. The real opportunity that you had to stop it was while it was on its way there. Once it's hanging on that chute, it's going to attack within a couple of seconds (detach from chute and guide to target), while you need probably 15-30 sec to detect, classify, realize it's not a spurious contact (that's assuming your radar is looking that high, and in a non-TBM application it may well not be), and attack - by which time that ALARM is probably already sitting in the Rmin for your system, if not blowing up one of your radars.
Because the ALARM has already gotten itself into attack position. The real opportunity that you had to stop it was while it was on its way there. Once it's hanging on that chute, it's going to attack within a couple of seconds (detach from chute and guide to target), while you need probably 15-30 sec to detect, classify, realize it's not a spurious contact (that's assuming your radar is looking that high, and in a non-TBM application it may well not be), and attack - by which time that ALARM is probably already sitting in the Rmin for your system, if not blowing up one of your radars.
With SEAD/DEAD, timing is everything.
All of this would be true if the SAM was alone on the field... ALARM in particular was withdrawn from service - a bit strange for such effective weapon... Maybe something goes wrong with this concept?
Because the ALARM has already gotten itself into attack position. The real opportunity that you had to stop it was while it was on its way there. Once it's hanging on that chute, it's going to attack within a couple of seconds (detach from chute and guide to target), while you need probably 15-30 sec to detect, classify, realize it's not a spurious contact (that's assuming your radar is looking that high, and in a non-TBM application it may well not be), and attack - by which time that ALARM is probably already sitting in the Rmin for your system, if not blowing up one of your radars.
With SEAD/DEAD, timing is everything.
Medium/long range SAM units need close range defence. Here is the Russian answer for that challenge...
This is not a new concept. Originally, when Dvina was fielded in the 60's, each battery received S-60 later ZU-23-2 for self defense. In the 90's Hungarian Vega was defended by one Neva plus Igla's.
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
And so with those in mind I ask ... do you believe that this ALARM missile is alone?
Do you believe that there aren't any air-launched decoys hanging around, wild weasels ready to bait SAMs, and that only a single missile of a single type will be launched, in a single attack mode?
Not saying you're wrong, just saying that you're moving the goalposts now
Hpasp Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch" (U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.) http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home
no need of worry...
