Well I was sure confused after andrey said in another post "everything is back as it should be". I asked for clarification on this and his further explanation of this comment was "And now we can see that about war-game's it had the right plans, but make tank simulators is not right.". So is he saying that the next GRAVITEAM tank simulator will follow APOS business model or does it mean that GRAVITEAM making tank simulators like SFK42 and SABoW was a mistake and they will stick with making war-games like APOS? I think SABoW is the last tank simulator we will see from GRAVITEAM for a very long time. My belief is reinforced by his comment that T-72 BoF actually started out to be a WW2 based war-game along the lines of APOS

I wouldn't completely rule out a tank sim in graviteams future.In the GTOS options menu there are options for both multi player and simulator but they are "not" activated.

So while there seem to be no near future plans for these two features,I think they are still being considered,otherwise I think they wouldn't even be included the options menu and would have been eliminated in the last engine upgrade.

I think if they are still included in the options menu in the next engine update then the chance of a future MP or tank sim may still be something Graviteam will consider exploring as a later feature for this game.

I guess what I'm saying is possibly one day all the features of GTOS,SABoW and SFK42 will be under one roof in the same game and there will no longer be a need for a SABow or SFK42 forum since the game will be all inclusive.

I would say tank sim is not out....BUT tank sim will NOT be funded by internal funds. If publisher orders tank sim, a tank sim will be made. Or I guess if some crazy third party fronts the cash.... In which case it is the entity that orders that would shape its out come. All guesses on my part. But brake even cash wise tank sims does not allow new projets to be funded. So commerically dead end for gravi I guess. Now what they have made is GREAT...... Just missing mark for more wide spread success in west. Publisher issues and content issues as well for more mass market stuff IMO. WOT for all its silliness has rekindled some interest....but legit tank sim to capitalise on it has not materialised. And publishers in general are daft. Steam greenlight is a cluster etc etc. AND valve as buisness entity may not view 40 or 50 k sales good enough to sell (I made that number up was old school success numbers for sims back in the day. While that was enough sales at 40 - 50 dollars to keep small frys at it, it PALES at sales compared to FPS zombie games and elves running around. Even failed ones.

Other avenues to consider...... Legit tank sim console port. Would likly be #%&*$# sim but empty market. All tank games I have seen in past 10 years for consoles are awful arcade games.

So to do legit ww2 tank sim as I see it.... make yourself (take forever). Wait for some publisher with vision and passion to fund. Find crazy way to fund....like kickstarter or something nuts like well off tanker fan to fund. The actual amount of money is unknown.. But likley not that bad at all IF right party makes the thing. Making modern FPS like cod and BF take millions of dollars as you need LOTS of artists. A small scale tank sim shooting for niche appeal....well I do not know. If you have to pay people up front ALOT. If you have fans make it willing to make money on the back end.... ALOT less to fund. And i am wracking my brain on how to do something. Even tie in with armor mueseums? Dont know. Have vision, do not have connections. ANd without marketing........and unknown publishers.... vary hard to say. Of course.....to fill niche is going to HAVE to come from niche.. That seems clear to me.

What IS interesting to me is that flight sims are attempting to expand into tank sims. So they see SOMETHING there. But a flight sim engine will make a pretty crappy ground warfare engine. Amoung many other issues. UNLESS focused on low and slow stuff like helo's. Honestly ARMA COULD become something more legit....IF they redid there awful vehicle code from square 1. So far on that front....not so good. The mods made have ended up in fantasy land with attempting to do to much and failing at everything.

Modelling reliability of Tiger systems might alleviate that, as would random air attack anytime German vehicles move during the day from cover. The occasional bridge collapse might also dampen the taste for the Tiger.

I'm a 'light' tanker - I'd prefer a Panzer Commander style campaign and gameplay... but that is me.

Tiger killing........ its called 155mm arty barrage. RECON guys for that sort thing. Early/MID war US tanks......not unless get suicide close. And Germans where not stupid to let tigers run around without close in stuff to support. In early battles in North Africia against the few tiger 1 E's. When US armor went up against........got knocked out. When the full force of US artilly was called upon......tigers and entire German armored colummns knocked out. PLenty of pretty time life color photos of those. Or I suppose if US commanders used their new fangled M10 tank destroyers smartly. Which they rarly did. And the M3 and M6 tank destroyers.........oh dear. Just bad. Had massive issues with dealing with panzer 3 nand 4's let alone tigers. In the end.......really stupid thinking on war planners. Not addressed until 1944. They insisted tanks where for supporting infantry, not fighting tanks. And somehow thin skinned tank destroyers where suppose to deal with tanks. But they only stood a chance if dug in on the defensive. And daft commanders would parcel out to support their infantry. Results......Germans Massed armor would pop up and a few scattered tank destoyers out on the front line would attempt to stop. Never went well. Even when the new M10 TD popped up in early/mid 43... On the defensive and dug in would loose half their numbers to attacking german armor. Just NOT enough steel on those things to take hits. But they could at least dish the pain.

Thank gawd by end of the war US Army finally dropped the whole concept and started ordering tanks that could fight other tanks on equal or better terms. Like M26 In Korea the m26 did vary well againts t34's. Even the good ole Shermans upgraded to M4a3e8's FINALLY had a tank able to deal with other tanks on equal footing. THen of course the super shermans of IDF. the m50 and m51 models....able to deal with the likes of t54, t55, t62, centurians, etc.

I'll buy it.

We are so starved for WW2 tank sim that any good, decent one would find a buyer. I would personally buy it. As long as the physics and ballistics are realistically rendered and it does not look anything like the World of Tank type of game. No need initially to model a lot of tanks as if the sim is good modders would flock to it and create new models, maps etc...

As for the playable tanks it would be best to start with basic models like the Panzer IV F2 , G , H or J model, the Stug IIIG and on the American side the Sherman M4a2 or 3 model and a tank destroyer.

When properly maintained German heavy tanks were reliable and effective but with the late war conditions: constant air strikes, shortages of fuel, parts and ammo, disrupted logistics, constant retreats and the decreased training and proficiency of Panzerwaffe crews they were just hunted, outnumbered beasts.

We are so starved for WW2 tank sim that any good, decent one would find a buyer. I would personally buy it. As long as the physics and ballistics are realistically rendered and it does not look anything like the World of Tank type of game. No need initially to model a lot of tanks as if the sim is good modders would flock to it and create new models, maps etc...

As for the playable tanks it would be best to start with basic models like the Panzer IV F2 , G , H or J model, the Stug IIIG and on the American side the Sherman M4a2 or 3 model and a tank destroyer.

When properly maintained German heavy tanks were reliable and effective but with the late war conditions: constant air strikes, shortages of fuel, parts and ammo, disrupted logistics, constant retreats and the decreased training and proficiency of Panzerwaffe crews they were just hunted, outnumbered beasts.

Yes to a new WW2 tank sim, PROVIDED it:

- did NOT sacrifice single-player features (like a decent campaign and set of theatres) so as to have multi-player (in fact SP only is better, as it then can't make that compromise);

- featured the AFVs, guns, troops and other kit (ie not just tanks) of at least Germany, US AND UK (let's not forget the counry that invented and/or pioneered the b*ggers);

- featured at least the Western Theatre, preferably Normandy & NW Europe 1944-45.

I can't prove it, but suspect that SF 42's appeal is no more than slightly reduced because it lacks MP. I suspect that an altogether bigger limiting factor is that it's essentially Russian Front only, and has a quite limited SP campaign - compared to the like of M1TP2 for example; it had its own limits, gameplay-wise, but M1TP2's SP campaigns were truly well presented. In other words, I believe that a well-implemented SP campaign system with a good range of tanks, includinmg western ones, is likely to be a MUCH bigger selling poin than MP. An updated Panzer Elite, with SF'42 graphics, would be close to the ideal, with or without MP.

You obviously haven't played SF in a long time because there are now 9 campaigns and over 100 user made missions. There are 2 mission packs with a total of 60 missions. There are over 60 tank models including all the Panther models, Jadgtiger, Jagdpanther, Jagdpanzer L 70, Panzer IV Ausf G, Tiger I ( 2 models early and late), the Tiger II, all the T34 variants , the SU-76,85, 100,122, 152 and ISU-152,the JS-2 43 and 44 models the IS-122, T-70,the Sherman M4a3 76mm various apcs, the jeep, the kubelwagen, trucks and more models are added all the time.

Totally agree with what frinik22 stated, SFK42 is definitely not the same tank simulator that was released back in 2009. Sure some more fan appeal could be got out of the SFK42 if there was a western front. It probably could be done since SFK42 has a map creator utility and mission builder. Most of the armor units are present (some would still be needed to be created). Of course the correct foliage, infrastructure, buildings would need to be created also, but it's all possible with SFK42. The only thing lacking to do this is one group of insane modlers to undertake that project

Like I said a new tank sim from Graviteam could be a very long wait. But there is a very small sliver of hope for the near future of a WW2 tank sim that was told to me by someone at Graviteam about a year ago. Dane49 observation was closest to what could eventually happen.

The problem with ground based warfare is one of scale- rather than tens or hundreds of aircraft in the air or tens or hundreds of units on the ground at any one time in a flight sim, on the ground, there would be hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of active units in a ground warfare sim. And there has never been a true single player 'dynamic campaign' which represents this scope and makes it believable. Because it's supposed to be dynamic, that should imply that in theory, the player could violate orders, leave the area of local combat, drive anywhere as long as fuel or lack of physical barriers exist, and observer and see all of it going on. That's nigh impossible. For example, as the German player, in theory, the player should be able to attempt to change the course of the war, lead a tank brigade and attempt to attack through and behind Allied lines to attempt to cut them off from supply port. Maybe the Allied player would do something similar and try a strategy to end the war sooner. All games simply have paired down everything to a much smaller scope than what would be appropriate to scale to make this impossible, they have confined operations to local areas only and units that are relatively small in scale.


As an example, the relatively few German Tigers and Panthers aren't even the start of the problem, they would be eclipsed by all other units, some even more dangerous- all the infantry units, anti-tank guns, crew served heavy weapons, gun pits, fortified positions, mine fields, artillery batteries, the more numerous other tanks and tank destroyers, self propelled guns, and so on. Much of the German army wasn't mechanized, you'd have all these horse drawn units moved around, or just simply lots and lots infantry just dug in or walking or transported around everywhere.

The only ground based games have either been:

1) Scripted, canned missions (Panzer Commander, Panzer Elite)
2) 'Semi dynamic' campaigns (M1TP2) - this is a total illusion, in reality the campaigns aren't played out in real time, they are still single battles that predefine very small map areas, the player can't leave the edge of the map for the current battle, it's still tactical scale rather than operational or strategic level. The wider war going supposedly on is still heavily abstracted by cut screens rather than an actual war that the player can get involved in.

Then there's the problem of getting a computer to intelligently predict how to intelligently manage all of this, plan, conduct a war. Computers are not intelligent, that's the problem. They can only do what they've been programmed to do, so that means that a programmer has to foresee all the possible events in something as complicated as warfare against a human player, probably have millions of scripted triggers or conditions, and invariably you will still get dumb behavior from the computer controlled ground forces like we've always had.


So, games have really just shown local operations going on, and small components of those, at that. Battles are resolved much quicker and easier than they probably would be for either gameplay and game balance considerations, or simply because of technical and programming limitations.

PCs are getting better and smarter( not in the human intelligence fashion) all the time. New pcus and gpus are coming out with more computation and processing power however to simulate real ground war you'd need a Cray-type super computer as desktops are not performing enough and you'd need a monster gpu to keep up with all the graphic processing required by war on a realictic scale. May be in 10 years time ordinary computers in whatever shape will be powerful enough to tackle something really large scale.

I just wouldn't bet on it. Even if the technical limitations were solved, there's another hurdle from the commercial standpoint. With games like World of Tanks becoming the Gold Standard, with simulations being a niche market, with tank simulations a niche within a niche, it's a huge risk from any developer's point of view. I think the best it will be for a while are massively online multiplayer games, at least that goes to some length of solving computer intelligence problems.

It's not just the amount of computing power needed in itself, try to imagine the challenge of programming a battle plan into a computer ahead of time against human who can think and react on the fly in real time. That is just a really, really unbalanced fact that favors a human opponent. It's hard enough just to program a vehicle with a set of conditions to make it navigate around a few trees, imagine doing this in much more complicated terrain and environmental conditions, in combat, anticipating a very large array of complex human decision making. This is nothing like programming a computer to play chess.

Playing in an sim with massive armys clashins real time WOULD NOT BE FUN IMO. It is massive slaugher brawl fest. For human scale fun keeping thing at platoon and company levels is best IMO. That we can DO VARY WELL now. And certainly no more than a Bat level. Well a least all at once.....

- Which would be a sensible design compromise, which is what everyone has done. That also means you won't have dynamic campaigns, either. That means that battles would be confined to a small area between small units, a dynamic campaign implies the whole war going on or at least a much larger scale, where the player could theoretically go visit and have more of an open ended experience.

Flight sims do this- players can leave the assigned sector or route, go sight seeing, destroy targets, or whatever. For a ground level sim, this is a totally different matter.

I'd be willing to pay Steel Beasts money for a no holds barred as true to life as possible pre modern MBT tank sim. And I'm not alone in this regard. Folks in our milsim community often discuss and agree on it.

I have not read all 4 pages worths' posts, but I'd suggest a RoF or DCS business model.By all means, start with the M4, but expand the playable vehicles to include German, British and Russian tanks limited to historically correct match ups in the correct theaters and you will have a winner.

It has to support MP and multi crew stations though (IMHO), accurate ballistic modeling and performance would be key.

The issue becomes HOW to do. You need an engine or to BUILD an engine really able to do tank fighting right. Either way is MONEY unless you can find some super duper programmer types that want to make for free. Then you all the assets which means now you need at least 4 to 6 really good artist types. With knowledge of generating correct 3d land forms, animations, of course give me like 3d modeling and textures of course. AND connections. No one is going to front cash or let you borrow cash if your just random dudes.

Turning things like Arma into a truelly legit tank sim just is not really possible. Its close and maybe arma 3 can actually do legit armor penitrations simulation right. But OFP, ARMA and arma 2 are all stupid hit points at there core. DCS engine stuff. Right now land form is not detailed enough to do right. Its a flight sim after all. With edge crap maybe? Also all the dumb vehicles are hit point based. Which is odd. Of course NOT for aircraft so surly could be adapted.

Things like UNreal or unity engines. JUST FORGET IT. Unable to really do the multiple KM land areas well.

Then you got outfits like Graviteam. They are gun shy on tank sims after the last 2 both ran into publisher issues. Apart from MP is perfect.

ESIM guys. If they just updated the art side of things.......UGH. But more focused on military aspect of things. Or at least trying too.

SO HOW THE HECK DO YOU FUND? Waiting for some game dev or publisher to do is likly never going to happen. Track record of sales is pretty lack luster. Or they screw it up and make awful arcade tank shooter game. Which is just dumb IMO.

Sorry, but I voted no. No for single player sim with US content only.

I would pay for WW2 tank sim with US/German/Russian/British/etc tanks and both single/multiplayer in a heartbeat. Of course it could have just a few tanks out of the box, with more as a DLC RoF/DCS style