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#3740475 - 02/23/13 04:05 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 129
Wolfhound Offline
Member
Wolfhound  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 129
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Load the .GPX (or was it .KML ?) into Googleearth.

Then zoom to the layer and pan/zoom to the area of interest, stepping forwards/back to watch the progress of the aircraft/missiles.

Bear in mind that 'extreme' wiggliness seen from the launcher (or close by) is actually barely weaving when viewed from side/above ~ you should at least 'glance' at the end view before deciding how good the guidance has been.

There was a GE bug with how the elevation and speed graph was displayed (maximum greater than axes scale values), but SAMSIM is "correct", and the error lies in the external program.


It the .GPX or .KML a file saved with the after action report somewhere in the SAMSIM folder. If its not too much trouble, could you elaborate on the process of transporting them to Googleearth?

Thanks


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3740479 - 02/23/13 04:12 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Wolfhound]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
piston79 Offline
Member
piston79  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
Originally Posted By: Wolfhound


It the .GPX or .KML a file saved with the after action report somewhere in the SAMSIM folder. If its not too much trouble, could you elaborate on the process of transporting them to Googleearth?

Thanks


Just drop it in Google Earth and remove the bottom thick...

#3740629 - 02/23/13 10:20 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 95
CooLDoG Offline
Junior Member
CooLDoG  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 95
file>open>(find samsim directory and click on the .gpx file)>open

untick bottom box as shown.

Last edited by CooLDoG; 02/23/13 10:21 PM.
#3740881 - 02/24/13 12:02 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Wolfhound]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
Click to reveal..
I'm using Windows XP with SAMSIM version 0.926C

Ok I spent quite a bit of time testing and observing the SA-2F at the Asuluk range against the very low flying high speed FB-111 and here is what I have found.

Asuluk range parameters:
Missiles = 6 x V750VU 11DU
Targets = 3 x RM-207M (Simulating FB-111s) launched at 1 minute intervals starting at T+00min 10sec
dm, m jamming = none
cm jamming = none

This image shows my I-64 (Q - button) set-up.



This image shows my I-62 (Z - button) set-up.

NOTE:
Because I'm engaging a target flying below 300m, the K3 I, II & III red lights are illuminated signifying that the radio proximity fuse for all three missile channels has been switched OFF. Leaving the radio fuses on (K3 I, II & III lights off), is supposed to confuse the missiles radio fuse as it will be flying close to the ground and most likely interference from ground clutter would cause a premature detonation.


This images shows a typical missile flyout with 'K' guidance (Half Lead Elevated By Constants), with the red K3 lights.

NOTE:
Missile launch is at 30Km, the missiles will always initially stabilise at 3.5 to 4 degrees to the right of the radar beam, as indicated on the azimuth (Beta) display. The 3 green lamps, elevation, range and azimuth signify that auto-tracking has been initiated in all 3 dimensions.


The following two images show the missile at 'end-game'.


NOTE:
The missile begins it's end-game intercept turn towards the target very late and as a result misses. This occurs about 90% of the time.
Regardless of target azimuth motion observed on the azimuth screen and the right PAA dial (black three pronged pointer), the missiles always fly to the right of the radar beam by approximately 3.5 to 4 degrees. This occurs even if the target is moving to the left, which means the missile is not leading the target in azimuth.



The following test is exactly the same as the above, but in this instance the K3 I, II & III radio fuse lamps are off indicating that the radio fuses on all three missile channels have been switched ON.

This image was taken a few seconds after missile launch, which occurred at 30Km.

NOTE:
On this occasion the target was flying to the left which was indicated on the azimuth display and right hand PAA dial. As can be seen the missile is leading the target by flying to the left of the radar beam. Had the target been flying to the right, the missile would lead it to the right as other tests have shown. This is not the case with the radio fuse inactive (K3 red lights ON).


This images shows the missile continuing it's fly-out and still leading the target.

NOTE:
The movement of the ground clutter to the right and the slight change of the right PAA indicator (showing 45 degrees whereas it was almost 50 degrees in the previous image above this one), illustrates the target is moving to the left.


This images shows the missile a few moments before impact. Again note the ground clutter and right PAA indicator.



This images shows the target and missile just after impact. The target was killed.

NOTE:
With the radio fuse ON (red K3 lamps OFF), 'K' guidance mode has a pK of 1.0!!!


Using 'YNP' guidance (Half-Lead) with the radio fuse ON, there is a chance the missile will 'disappear' a couple of seconds after launch (perhaps being lead into the ground by the target losing altitude). If the missile survives the first couple of seconds, it will lead the target correctly and score a kill.
Using 'YNP' guidance with the radio fuse OFF, there is a chance the missile will 'disappear' a couple of seconds after launch (perhaps being lead into the ground by the target losing altitude). If the missile survives the first couple of seconds, it will fly with a profile very similar to the images posted of 'K' guidance with radio fuse OFF. So it will always fly to the right of the radar beam and will not lead the target correctly. The chances of scoring a kill are extremely low.

Using T/T guidance (Three-Point) with or without selecting the missile radio fuse has exactly the same effect as 'K' guidance with the radio fuse on, with the exception that the missile will fly directly line of sight on the radar beam to the target. Pk is 1.0!!! This is the most effective mode.


1) So from all of these observations and comparisons we can see that switching the missiles radio fuse OFF (red K3 lamps on) is altering the flight profile of the missiles when used in conjunction with the 'K' and 'YNP' guidance modes.

2) Ground clutter has no effect on the radio fuse regardless of target altitude.

3) Missile pK seems to be far too high, against a high speed low altitude target.

A few other points:
a) Pausing the simulation doesn't pause the missiles gyro, so if you pause the sim just after selecting the 'prepare missile for launch' knob on the I-64 (Q - button) panel, after around 30 seconds (with the sim still paused) the missiles ready lamp on the I-62 (Z - panel) will illuminate.

b) The missiles appear to detonate at the range line on the elevation and azimuth scopes with the radio fuse ON, if auto-tracking is deselected in range and the range line moved downwards (closer in range than the target). If the range line is move upwards (further in range that the target), the missile will not detonate at the range line, but will pass it and disappear after a few seconds of flight.
Considering the missiles are flying with active radio fuses, their proximity to the ground or a target should cause detonation, not their proximity to the range line.

c) Ground clutter doesn't seem to have an effect on target tracking. Ground clutter can make it more difficult for the user to separate a target from the background, but not the radar. If the user by chance happens to have the elevation, range or azimuth lines on a target deep behind clutter, auto-tracking can begin. Ground clutter also doesn't cause a loss of of auto-tracking (break lock).

d) 'T/T' guidance mode seems to be far too effective.


Cheers


Great bug-finding!!!

1, took quite a while to found, and correct.
It affected UPR and K method in case of K3, with the Dvina/Volhov/Neva systems.
(same code, from several years ago)

2, Still checking. (I'm pretty sure, that it was working some years ago...)

3, That target is flying in a straight path.
In case of maneuvering target, Pk is much lower.
(Just try the P15 in Poland, you will be surprised!)

a, It was never intended.

b, depending if the K3 was already emitted

c, it is similar to the reality. If a target got in the clutter, by playing gain, it was usually track-able.

d, T/T is the most effective method if the target is slow, and within the g limits of the missile.

The 9K33M3 OSA-AKM system is only using T/T method against their targets.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3748513 - 03/10/13 11:52 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 914
farokh Offline
farokh
farokh  Offline
farokh
Member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 914
I-RAN
strange bug !
how its possible ? i launched one missile by PS "lead" method on jammer target ! but it hit and kill the target

Click to reveal..
Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado
RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado

S-125M1 Neva


00:00, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:13, SNR ON AIR


00:00:15, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


+++++++++++++++++
00:00:29, SNR ON AIR


00:01:09, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 118
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 167m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:01:14, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 121
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 200m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:01:29, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado killed by SAM. (miss distance: 38m)


00:01:33, Missile exploded on Channel-2
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado killed by SAM. (miss distance: 4m)

02:00, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado launched

00:03:14, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 90
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 211m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:03:20, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 90
Target elevation: 1
Target altitude: 270m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:03:35, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado killed by SAM. (miss distance: 1m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 20sec
seehearspeak




twice little bug at sa-3
its about double fire switch !

as you see i mark rightest fire button switch by red mark ! i pushed it but just one missile fired !
PS: i turn up double fire switch to UP ! but its not work on rightest switch !




Last edited by farokh; 03/10/13 12:16 PM.
#3753022 - 03/18/13 06:15 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: farokh]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: farokh
strange bug !
how its possible ? i launched one missile by PS "lead" method on jammer target ! but it hit and kill the target

Click to reveal..
Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado
RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado

S-125M1 Neva


00:00, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:13, SNR ON AIR


00:00:15, SNR OFF THE AIR
-----------------


+++++++++++++++++
00:00:29, SNR ON AIR


00:01:09, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 118
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 167m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:01:14, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 121
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 200m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:01:29, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado killed by SAM. (miss distance: 38m)


00:01:33, Missile exploded on Channel-2
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado killed by SAM. (miss distance: 4m)

02:00, Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado launched

00:03:14, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 90
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 211m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:03:20, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 90
Target elevation: 1
Target altitude: 270m
Missile guidance method: TT (Three Point)


00:03:35, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Practice target RM-217 Zvezda [program-1] simulating Tornado killed by SAM. (miss distance: 1m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 20sec
seehearspeak
twice little bug at sa-3
its about double fire switch !

as you see i mark rightest fire button switch by red mark ! i pushed it but just one missile fired !
PS: i turn up double fire switch to UP ! but its not work on rightest switch !
Click to reveal..





As in reality.
(check manual page 34/4)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3756641 - 03/24/13 08:03 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Mdore Offline
Member
Mdore  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
I've tried a few times with the SA-2E to destroy a target without ever locking onto it. And I'm pretty sure it's impossible.

I add a target reflector in practice mode, then line the crosshairs up precisely over the target, then switch to 5km mode and make sure I'm absolutely 100% on target.

If the missile is in proximity fuse mode, the missile just flies past, never detonates.

If the missile is in command detonated mode, the missile detonates when it reaches the crosshairs, but this never damages the target.

Is this a bug, or just the way you chose to write it? Or maybe I'm not doing something right?

#3756899 - 03/24/13 09:27 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
piston79 Offline
Member
piston79  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
It's not a bug, but it's some kind of observation... I believe that WEASELS in "Prairie Fire" does pretty awkward maneuvers, which (I am sure) are not possible for a real plane... Could - in the name of realism - be done something about?

Click to reveal..
trk><name>F/A-18A Hornet No.1, VMFA-314 Black Knights</name><trkseg>
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#3759477 - 03/29/13 03:59 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Mdore Offline
Member
Mdore  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Okay, another bug.

If I track a target using the I87V for range, and guide the missiles in 1/2 lead mode, the missiles DO NOT lead the target, the missiles don't even fly a straight line, instead they trail the target.

Example, if I am tracking a target to the north of me that is going east to west <---, and I track the targets range normally, the missile flies to the left <--- of the centre line, leading the target. But if I track the target's range with I87V, the missile flies to the right ---> of the centre line!

Very odd.

#3759498 - 03/29/13 04:30 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Mdore]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Mdore
Okay, another bug.

If I track a target using the I87V for range, and guide the missiles in 1/2 lead mode, the missiles DO NOT lead the target, the missiles don't even fly a straight line, instead they trail the target.

Example, if I am tracking a target to the north of me that is going east to west <---, and I track the targets range normally, the missile flies to the left <--- of the centre line, leading the target. But if I track the target's range with I87V, the missile flies to the right ---> of the centre line!

Very odd.


I think, that this bug was already reported, corrected, just not released yet...
... still waiting more to be collected.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3759501 - 03/29/13 04:31 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Mdore]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Mdore
I've tried a few times with the SA-2E to destroy a target without ever locking onto it. And I'm pretty sure it's impossible.

I add a target reflector in practice mode, then line the crosshairs up precisely over the target, then switch to 5km mode and make sure I'm absolutely 100% on target.

If the missile is in proximity fuse mode, the missile just flies past, never detonates.

If the missile is in command detonated mode, the missile detonates when it reaches the crosshairs, but this never damages the target.

Is this a bug, or just the way you chose to write it? Or maybe I'm not doing something right?


Might be the same bug.
I tried it with the new code, and with Volhov T/T - RabOtVM - auto-track on elevation - 5km display, and manually tracking the Ashuluk Radar Reflector in Azimuth, I was able to kill it. (Range bore-sight was well before the target)

Click to reveal..
Asuluk training ground.

Practice target:
Radar Reflector

S-75M3 Volkhov


00:00, Practice target Radar Reflector launched

+++++++++++++++++
00:00:06, SNR ON AIR


00:00:36, V-755 20DSU Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 20km
Target azimuth: 73
Target elevation: 18
Target altitude: 6,4km
SNR mode: Wide Beam - 5km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


00:01:06, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Practice target Radar Reflector killed by SAM. (miss distance: 86m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 1min 11sec


Please try this patch.
http://www.mediafire.com/?2aavi4919229t7d
(it has some easter eggs)
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/29/13 09:35 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3759860 - 03/30/13 05:20 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Mdore Offline
Member
Mdore  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
I87V + 1/2 lead works. Yay! Thank you!

Also, great easter egg! I'm guessing it's too soon for any buttons to work?

Though you said eggS, so I wonder if I missed something.

#3759868 - 03/30/13 06:01 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Mdore Offline
Member
Mdore  Offline
Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 245
Okay, I should probably add a bug report, though you've probably spotted this already.

On 0.926D, the sim starts showing the SA-2E, and has Dregelypalank as the "Live Practice". Locking onto a meteor with an SA-2 was cool. But I couldn't add missiles to shoot it down. I'm still guessing it's a bug, even if it was fun hahaha

If you scroll to the SA-2F or the SA-5, the "Live Practice" fixes itself, and Asuluk and Ustka are available.

Last edited by Mdore; 03/30/13 06:04 AM.
#3759874 - 03/30/13 07:09 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Mdore]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Mdore
I87V + 1/2 lead works. Yay! Thank you!

Also, great easter egg! I'm guessing it's too soon for any buttons to work?

Though you said eggS, so I wonder if I missed something.


Just two screens, "Y/Z", "X", and Escape buttons.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3759881 - 03/30/13 08:13 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Mdore]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
piston79 Offline
Member
piston79  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
Originally Posted By: Mdore

On 0.926D, the sim starts showing the SA-2E, and has Dregelypalank as the "Live Practice". Locking onto a meteor with an SA-2 was cool. But I couldn't add missiles to shoot it down. I'm still guessing it's a bug, even if it was fun hahaha


Note the AAR - target is MiG-21 wink

#3759884 - 03/30/13 08:24 AM Re: Bug reports [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
piston79 Offline
Member
piston79  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Might be the same bug.
I tried it with the new code, and with Volhov T/T - RabOtVM - auto-track on elevation - 5km display, and manually tracking the Ashuluk Radar Reflector in Azimuth, I was able to kill it. (Range bore-sight was well before the target)



I believe that after passing the boresight, missile should receive second K3 and destruct itself... Do not know how it goes with Rab. ot VM, but as missile goes near a object (like chaffs in Linebacker) it pops-up)...Also about manual tracking - it should be the same from FCO and manual operators on RS (green indicators)....

#3760010 - 03/30/13 05:38 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3793766 - 06/08/13 05:48 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
max2012 Offline
Member
max2012  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481

I found a bug!

Look at the pictures here with a tornado.

Click to reveal..








#3793834 - 06/08/13 09:53 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
max2012 Offline
Member
max2012  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481

Volkhov errors more ...

Click to reveal..







#3793981 - 06/09/13 12:06 PM Re: Bug reports [Re: Cat]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 161
Muggs Offline
Member
Muggs  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 161
UK
Using SA-2E it's possible to fire the first missile while in practice mode, it doesn't show up on the AAR.

disregard

Last edited by Muggs; 06/09/13 04:42 PM.
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