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#3734737 - 02/13/13 09:20 AM Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm  
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redpiano Offline
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Why does it have to be such a pain!

Am I supposed to have center position trimmer ticked or not in the options if I'm using a spring stick.

How should I be trimming this damn plane!? It just seems to be the most clunky, sluggish, crappy system possible! I'm using Heading, pitch and bank hold, should I not be using these?

Also are my rotors supposed to look like this just flying forward?





Let me see if I can put this in the right words.

The problem I'm having is such, I position the stick and rudder so that I'm flying forward and when I hit the trim switch, whetehr I have central position trimmer ticked or not, the helicopter just veers off of the path on the hud that I had it set to. For example if I position the stick so my nose indicator on the hud is at -10 degrees and my heading is due north, when I hit the trim switch it almost never actually locks the chopper in that position and this is the most infuriating aspect of this helicopter.

It also seems like SOMETIMES it clicks and works for me but then every other time I just end up spending the entire mission fiddling with it, trying to get into position for attack without being clobbered by SAMs or other anti air and it makes for a horrible experience. I don't know how anyone can control this thing with any amount of speed and stability especially in a high intensity situation, like if I have an AH64 coming at me and I get the launch warning, by the time I turn around and start moving forward I just get nailed.

Also if anyone has any video links or tips on how I should be attacking, would be appreciated.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3734743 - 02/13/13 10:02 AM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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redpiano Offline
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I just played a quick gen mission, took off from the runway and spent the entire mission fumbling with trim, got to my target, was too busy messing with trim, got shot down by a missile. Reset my plane, did the same thing, same result.

Reset once more, got the trim working mostly, go to my target, went into auto hover, the chopper wouldn't sit still so I had to fiddle with trim more, wasn't able to get it to hover perfectly, managed to kill one tank and then thanks to the auto hover not stopping me from moving forward I got too close and one fired a missile at me, I disabled auto hover and made evasive maneuvers away from the tank, missile missed me and then I just couldn't get the helicopter to stop being idiotic so I quit.

I figured out the center position trimmer, so I have the right one selected now but I JUST HATE THIS TRIM SYSTEM! It makes the KA50 the most frustrating thing in DCS for me and it's the only module I want to use.

#3734756 - 02/13/13 11:48 AM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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JonnyD Offline
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The Fens, UK
Hovering stationary is an art smile


I say it as I see it
#3734757 - 02/13/13 11:54 AM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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redpiano Offline
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I can usually get it really easily, but I'm just sick of fighting the helicopter just to move forward.

#3734765 - 02/13/13 12:35 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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narfnarf Offline
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Hannover, Germany
I never understood all those trimmer issues :-)

I treat the trim button similar to a dead man switch. I push and hold the button, move the cyclic, release the button (and, as I don't have FFB) release the Joystick.
At no time the helicopter fights my input (as I hold the trim button which tells the AP to shut up and listen (damping is still active though)). At no time the helicopter jerks as I release the controls (as the AP gets new attitude information when I release the button).
Works perfectly well for me.
I do understand that real pilots are discouraged to hold the button but this is AFAIK because they loose the stick force when they hold the button which leads to increased risk of over steering by the pilot.

Central trim or not doesn't really matter. It is basically the same mechanism. Note, everything down below includes rudder pedals to.
After you release the trim button you have to center your Joystick.
- With central trimmer mode off you have 0.5s (AFAIR) to do so. After that period the current Joystick position is interpreted as a new input.
- With central trimmer mode on there is no period after that the actual Joystick position is interpreted again. Instead the Joystick is ignored until you center it.

So, you chose between extra-bumpiness or total ignorance of input. Both methods can get you killed, you can only choose your preferred way...

Oh, and the most important thing: Ensure that FFB is disabled in DCS if you don't have a FFB controller.

And yes, your rotor blades are supposed to look that way. Asymmetry of lift is to blame...

#3734767 - 02/13/13 12:45 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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msalama Offline
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Well the way I do it is as follows:

1) press trim, hold it down
2) move controls to where the eggbeater is doing what you want
3) release trim
4) recenter controls pretty sharpish

EDIT: yah what narfnarf says, that's exactly how it works IME too

#3734783 - 02/13/13 01:26 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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redpiano Offline
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Okay that's working better, two more questions.

1. Why when I click hold the trim button the chopper sort of "loosens up" and leaves your current heading by a bit?

2. Why when I hold the trimmer and release won't it take small inputs?

#3734831 - 02/13/13 03:35 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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smil Offline
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Well I can fly smoothly so I'll answer. All IMHO, of course. Complex answer that I will try to keep in short bursts.


Turn off Central Position Trimmer. It sucks. Perfect your technique or look into a fake FF Setup.

Lower Y saturation to 80%, a bit of curve added, a small deadband for pitch, roll, 100 Y saturation for rudders.

Collective brake/Altitude reset is a must have button and is used at all times with either BR or RD alt control on.

RCTL ENTER for controller position is a must if no FF. Position it right where you can easily see it. I put mine right on my cockpit Shkval.

---------------------------------------------------

If you are not following a steerpoint, DT/DH AP button stays in the middle.

To use altitude hold AP, set the BR/RD switch with ALT HOLD button off, then turn it on after switching. RD will follow terrain and try to avoid CFIT (controlled flight into ground), BR will hold an altitude set to MSL and be a bit smoother in flight. You must shut off AP Hold for the BR/RD switch to work properly when switching. As a rule, you use ALT HOLD a lot to make flying easier. Learn how the alt reset/collective brake works. The trimmer button also releases the alt hold AP but does not reset it. IF you do not use the colective brake/alt reset, you will be fighting the AP.

If you want to follow steerpoints, trim helo and set alt before engaging AP route mode or you'll fight it.

If you are flying free hand maneuvering use FD AP. That is what it is for. Shut it off for precision flight.

Sometimes you must push and hold trimmer a long time, sometimes just tap it. There is no one right way to use BS AP, there are three (hold, tap and FD).

AP is weak and can only do so much. You have to make it easy for it to work, then not fight it.

All I do is practice flying and learn my systems, so I have learned a thing or two about it.

sorry for the alt hold paragraph, but it is all need to know stuff. Even with all this mastered (which I have not done), the KA-50 can still go crazy! But I am cutting that down through practice.

Last edited by smil; 02/13/13 03:48 PM.
#3734836 - 02/13/13 03:43 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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smil Offline
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Forgot this...

Remember the gyros. You must fight precession if you are making a hard turn. You may have to move the joystick an opposite direction to make the helo do what you want. Well, not opposite, but perpendicular. smile

Sometimes a long trimmer button hold is needed for the gyros to settle.

As long as your blades don't collide, don't worry what they look like. Just fly within parameters.

Last edited by smil; 02/13/13 03:51 PM.
#3734899 - 02/13/13 05:42 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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narfnarf Offline
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Hannover, Germany
Originally Posted By: redpiano

1. Why when I click hold the trim button the chopper sort of "loosens up" and leaves your current heading by a bit?


Sure it does. As long as you hold the trim button the AP Channels excluding Altitude Hold do not try to hold the attitude. So the helicopter probably starts to drift.

Quote:

2. Why when I hold the trimmer and release won't it take small inputs?


Hm, I'm not sure that I understand the question...

#3734908 - 02/13/13 05:50 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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redpiano Offline
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For the second, when I try to add small adjustments to the trim it doesn't seem to take for some reason, I'll click or click and hold the trim button and when I release it the trim setting I put doesn't take. It's only with really smally inputs for hovering and such.

#3735006 - 02/13/13 08:10 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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narfnarf Offline
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Hm, I cannot remember something like this. Usually I trim rather small movements and I have never experienced any issues with those small movements. Weird.

#3735017 - 02/13/13 08:39 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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Legend Offline
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Watch this video and much will become clear... including the logic behind it!



There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
#3735052 - 02/13/13 09:49 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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Runibl Offline
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Very good articles on how stuff works on the KA-50:
http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_426a.html

Including rotors, trimming and autopilot.
Very good read.


Rúni. "IceCat"
#3735227 - 02/14/13 04:55 AM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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Raptor9 Offline
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Very good video indeed. This should be bookmarked/stickied or something.


Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
#3735260 - 02/14/13 07:07 AM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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W1ndy Offline
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Red this post won't help you because you have a spring stick not FF as I understand it. I'll post anyway in case it helps a FF user with trim issues here.

If you fly with FF you need to un-check the centre option, and in the case of the MSSWFF2 you need to cover the hall sensor with tape so that the FF is activated at all times. With the hall sensor uncovered, it will mess with your trim every time.

Unchecked and covered, trim can then be used intuitively. Then the trick is just to trim constantly and steadily.

As before it doesn't address your issue Redpiano but a thread like this is read by all the new users so it might help an FF user.

#3735362 - 02/14/13 02:29 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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redpiano Offline
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No worries windy, everyone else's advice has helped me.

#3735582 - 02/14/13 10:18 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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TychosElk Offline
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This had me stymied for a bit too (BS1), until I read what Narfnarf wrote above, and cottoned on to the fact that FFB was enabled and BS was getting confused by the two gamepads I use as auxiliary input devices, one of which is a 'rumble' type FFB pad. All it needed was the fix in Readme1.0: open \...\Config\Producer.cfg and change the “ForceFeedbackEnabled” line from “true” to “false”. Now the trimmer seems to do what is supposed to.

#3739049 - 02/21/13 01:26 AM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: Legend]  
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RodBorza Offline
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Originally Posted By: Legend
Watch this video and much will become clear... including the logic behind it!



Thanks for posting it!
Great video, gave a lot of information in a easy way.
Now I can go I fly thet thing. By the way, I'm loving it!


Sim Evolution: Microproses's F-15 Strike Eagle II, F-15 Strike Eagle III, Jane's F-15, Jane's F-18, Jane's Longbow 1 & 2, Microsoft's Combat Flight Simulator 3, Falcon: AF, DCS A-10 and Flight Simulator X!

My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RodBorza



#3745607 - 03/05/13 05:11 PM Re: Just...can't...grasp...trimmmmm [Re: redpiano]  
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Smokin_Hole Offline
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Practice first with the FD on. This takes the autopilot and gyros out of the loop. Trimming works best when you trim small changes often. It works worse when one waits until large cyclic forces are at play before hitting the trimmer. It conducting a large hard maneuver, I like to press and hold the trimmer until the maneuver is complete.

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